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Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 26 2009,12:52) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,12:27) Quote (Gene @ Aug. 26 2009,10:29) To All…………”You have heard that it has been said , you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. But I say unto you Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: because he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those them which love you what reward have you? do not even the Publicans the same? and if you salute your brethern only, what do you more than others do? do not even the publicans so? Be you therefore perfect even as your Father which is in Heaven is Perfect. Peace and love to you all……………….gene
Why are you quoting a Catholic book?
Catholic book?Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Jodi,You should know that the Bible is a Catholic book because they believe that Hi-Jacking means ownership(lol).
Seriously though, they did spread the Gospel it 's just that they also seemed to have perverted the Gospel and hence God raised up Islam to put them in check.
The First text was not written (by) Catholics they were canonized by the and altered from there original texts to fit their Pagan practices and teachings. They were written by translating Letters from the Apostles and and early Church Fathers who buy the way were NOT Catholic at all. Catholics introduced Pagan practices in to the Church and are the Apostate Church , and mother of the Protestants also, WE are told in Revelations to come out of Her and Her fornicating daughters. Notice how it is written (MYSTERY) Babylon the GREAT the MOTHER of HARLOTS and abominations of the earth. She has decieved the whole earth with the wine of Her fornications. She is the mother of confusions (mysteries) and blasphemous practices of the earth. WE are told to come out of Her or we will recieve of HER Plagues. She is of a PAGAN MYSTERY RELIGION. There is (NO) truth in HER. IMO
peace and love……………….gene
Quote (david @ Aug. 26 2009,11:02) Quote Here is a common objection that I would like to discuss. Jesus told his disciples to return their swords to their place. He said to “love your enemies.”
The Belgian newspaper La Dernière Heure relates that during the war Roman Catholic Cardinal Amette of Paris said this to the French soldiers:
“My brothers, comrades of the French army and of their glorious allies, the Almighty God is on our side. . . . God is near to our brave soldiers in battle, he gives them strength and fortifies them against the enemy. . . . God will give us the victory.”
At the same time, on the other side, the Catholic archbishop of Cologne, Germany, said to German soldiers:
“God is with us in this fight for righteousness . . . We command you in the name of God, to fight to the last drop of your blood for the honor and glory of the country. . . . God knows that we are on the side of righteousness and he will give us the victory.”
(La Dernière Heure, January 7, 1967)You can just feel the love oozing off the pages of history.
My question is a simple one:
Which side was God on?–The Catholic side or the Catholic side? Or was he on neither side?
I guess another question: Does God fight against himself? If a kingdom is divided, will it stand?
CA Is this the thread you said you would comment on the above?
“Here is a Catholic view of the Iraq war:
http://centerforchristiannonviolence.org/downloa….War.pdf“–CAIs this the “link” you were talking about? Is this your response to my questions?
Or are my questions too complicated or troubling?
Which side was God on?–The Catholic side or the Catholic side? Or was he on neither side?
Was this whole situation one of the mea culpa's of the pope?
Hi BD:
And so, what do you say that Jesus mean by the following statement:
Quote Jesus even said if your eye offend thee gouge it out He also said,
Quote Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.Quote Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (david @ Aug. 26 2009,15:50) Quote (david @ Aug. 26 2009,11:02) Quote Here is a common objection that I would like to discuss. Jesus told his disciples to return their swords to their place. He said to “love your enemies.”
The Belgian newspaper La Dernière Heure relates that during the war Roman Catholic Cardinal Amette of Paris said this to the French soldiers:
“My brothers, comrades of the French army and of their glorious allies, the Almighty God is on our side. . . . God is near to our brave soldiers in battle, he gives them strength and fortifies them against the enemy. . . . God will give us the victory.”
At the same time, on the other side, the Catholic archbishop of Cologne, Germany, said to German soldiers:
“God is with us in this fight for righteousness . . . We command you in the name of God, to fight to the last drop of your blood for the honor and glory of the country. . . . God knows that we are on the side of righteousness and he will give us the victory.”
(La Dernière Heure, January 7, 1967)You can just feel the love oozing off the pages of history.
My question is a simple one:
Which side was God on?–The Catholic side or the Catholic side? Or was he on neither side?
I guess another question: Does God fight against himself? If a kingdom is divided, will it stand?
CA Is this the thread you said you would comment on the above?
“Here is a Catholic view of the Iraq war:
http://centerforchristiannonviolence.org/downloa….War.pdf“–CAIs this the “link” you were talking about? Is this your response to my questions?
Or are my questions too complicated or troubling?
Which side was God on?–The Catholic side or the Catholic side? Or was he on neither side?
Was this whole situation one of the mea culpa's of the pope?
No, my point was that this is not a clearly defined dogma of the church. There is a just war theory/doctrine. But it has not been elevated to the level of infallible teaching of the church.So the answer is that we don't have an infallible understanding revealed to us as yet.
I know that might not be the answer you want. But there it is.
You do know the Pope repeatedly apologized several times for what I believe included that war that I asked you about.
Between 1980 and 1996, John Paul II ‘recognized the Church’s historic faults or asked forgiveness’ at least 94 times, says Vatican commentator Luigi Accattoli in his book Quando il papa chiede perdono (When the Pope Asks Forgiveness).
Some of the mea culpa were for Crusades, wars, support of dictatorships, division in the churches, anti-Semitism, the Inquisitions, the Mafia, and racism.You say whether to war and kill people of other countries is “not a clearly defined dogma of the church.”
Well my question to you: Did Jesus (the HEAD of the church) say anything that we could use to figure this out?
Let me change my question. I'm not asking you for an official doctrine of the church.
Do you personally think that when one country made up largely of Catholics goes and kills people in another country made up largely of Catholics that this is….Christian?
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 26 2009,15:55) Hi BD: And so, what do you say that Jesus mean by the following statement:
Quote Jesus even said if your eye offend thee gouge it out He also said,
Quote Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.Quote Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,are you suggesting that God Almighty use to be violent in the OT but somehow changed in the NT?
You are confusing the words of Jesus with the words of God.
Jesus was speaking to the people he was sent to and during times when God commanded the death of a people it was the same God. Why do you think Jesus said I did not come to bring peace? It was because all false prophets would say “peace is what you will have”
Jeremiah 14 (King James Version)
13Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.
14Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Ezekiel 13 (King James Version)
16To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.
Micah 3:4-6 (King James Version)
5Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.
Matthew 10:33-35 (King James Version)
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
bodhitharta, I haven't been paying attention. First, hello. We may have spoken before a long time ago. But I've been away. I'm wondering what religion you represent?
Quote (david @ Aug. 26 2009,18:19) bodhitharta, I haven't been paying attention. First, hello. We may have spoken before a long time ago. But I've been away. I'm wondering what religion you represent?
I am representing Abraham and both of his sons.Quote (david @ Aug. 26 2009,18:20) Nevermind. Islam. Found it.
Just so you know I studied Islam directly because of studying Jehovah's witnesses they are actually the closest to Islam in belief. They believe 99% of what Muslims believe.Hi Bodhitharta.
I am no part of the Catholic or Protestant religion. I am different. I am a true believer, and as you, believe that God is one, as the book of God says. I too hate the wickedness in the world, and especially the hypocrisy that is so evident among many religious people. They speak of love, but are filled with violence and hate. I am wondering how you think it is all going to end.
I would like to talk with you about an ancient prophecy that foretells the transformation of the earth into a paradise. May I read to you what the prophet wrote?
ISAIAH 11:6-9
“And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.”Hi BD,
You would be better to be one with Abraham in the Living Spirit of God.
Holding up a banner for a servant saves nobody.Quote They believe 99% of what Muslims believe. I would put it more around 68%, but yes, we have many similar beliefs.
Here is where we are different, and where Islam and Catholicism come together:
Both religions teach immortality of the human soul, a state of temporary torment, and the existence of a burning hell.
Nick will also agree with you on the burning hell.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,10:17) Quote “The church may by divine right confiscate the property of heretics, imprison their person, and condemn them to flames. In our age, the right to inflict the severest penalties, even death, belongs to the church. There is no graver offense than heresy, therefore it must be rooted out.” – Public Eccliastical, Vol. 2, p.142. What is this? Please provide a source link somewhere online so we can verify this isn't something cooked up by a money grubbing fake who is making a living off of feeding people's conspiracy theories about the CC.
BTW, it's spelled “Ecclesiastical”
Hi CatholicApologSorry I cleared my internet history so I dont know the link but heres a google search
http://www.google.co.nz/search?….h&meta=
Anyway, so…what im wondering is this: If in the past heretics and others were killed and it was believed that the Catholic Church had the authority to do that, could it happen again?
I am curious, about what could happen in the future.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 26 2009,11:00) Quote (Douglas @ Aug. 26 2009,06:08) Quote (Cato @ Aug. 25 2009,23:49) While I sincerely doubt that God ordered the particular violent acts called on in the OT, I do view that violence or perhaps better termed destruction is part of God's plan. Whenever we have creation in a temporal world we need also to have destruction or nothing will change. When things, ideas, anything get old, decrepit they stand in the way of evolution and progress. If you want to build something new, sometimes you have to destroy the ruins of what was there before, if not the world becomes a great garbage heap that chokes growth. The pagan religions knew this very well for though, like Christians, they had their demons and devils they also had evil gods as well, their Plutos and Hecates, their Kalis and Shivas. Why were these gods and not demons? Because they served their pantheons not as forces of chaos and opposing divine will as the demonic, but as the scavagers of the gods, cleaning out the outworn, the obstacles to what they viewed as divine direction. In Jewish mysticism one of the eminations of the Godhead is called Gevurah, and represents God's severity and judgement and is viewed in this light as well. Destruction, in a limited material world, is a necessary counterweight to creation.
Which seems a very sensible observation, and to which I would only add – why distinguish violence and destruction wrought through a human agency (conflict) from a non human agency (an earthquake)?I have a question, like the village postulated by bodhitharta, but a little more complicated, which I'd be interested to know people's genuine considered answers to. This question is far more likely to become pertinent to you later on.
Let us suppose that you, and your children are starving to death. You know that if you do not find food soon, you and your children will die.
A nearby family has a little food, enough that they are not yet starving and yet not a great deal.
You ask nicely if they can spare some, and you are told they can not, for then they will have no food next week and they do not know where to get more after that.Do you:
a) Walk away, knowing it means the death of you and your children
b) Fight for some food, to save your children, because it's unfair that they die while others have foodI tell you now, almost everyone in reality will pick b), even though that is the worst outcome. Even the “Christians” among you will probably not hand out your food if you think it will mean your own children dying of starvation sooner as a result.
So, in the end, would one turn to violence to save your own children, even though no violence is being threatened to them?
We are not to transgress our boundaries and people have the right to refuse you their food or resources so if we die being Just so be it, for as we live for God we die in God.But, if we were the people with the food I would not turn them away I would let us all eat what we have out of faith but if we all should die we would have died in good faith.
Today men are lovers of themselves.
bodhitharta this is a good answer!I would be the same.
Blessings.
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