God

[david]

Is what is “good” good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good?

There is no easy simple answer to this question. Either one you pick leaves a disturbing result.

Or is it possible that neither is correct, or that there is some other option?

This is a very old question that has troubled deep thinkers since Plato’s time.

[david]

The two options:

1. What is considered “good” is considered “good” because God has said so. (We would have no way of knowing what is good or bad without God telling us–him saying something is good is what actually makes it good.)

2. God says something is “good” because it actually is good.

[david]

Although much more could be said, here is an example:

1. God might have stated that killing is ok, or even necessary, and in that case, killing would have been “good,” just because God said so. If the only reason for killing being either good or bad was because God stated it, and if he could state either one (it's good, or, it's bad) then this is arbitrary morality, and we are only obeying God, not because killing is either actually good or actually bad, but because God said so.

2. However, if God commands that killing is bad, because killing actually is intrinsically bad, or that something is “good” because it actually is good, then something that is “good” is actually good independent of God, and in that case, God would seem to merely be a moral messenger, passing on ethical judgements, but not being the source of them. Morality would not truly be dependent on God.

[terraricca]

but God could have said that thing are GOOD because he expected them from the works of others and so declared them good to him ,

[seekingtruth]

David,
I believe “God commands it because it is good”, an item is classified as good by how its implementation supports either love of others, or selfishness. That's why love fulfills the law, imagine if all the worlds decisions (business, political, personal) were based on putting others needs first, it would be heaven on earth.

Wm

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Jan. 26 2013,14:06)

Is what is “good” good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good? There is no easy simple answer to this question.  Either one you pick leaves a disturbing result.   Or is it possible that neither is correct, or that there is some other option? This is a very old question that has troubled deep thinkers since Plato's time.

Hi David,

God defines for us what “Good” is, and it's up to us whether or not we want to
be good. When we make the decision to be good, then God helps us to comply.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[david]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 26 2013,17:00)

Quote (david @ Jan. 26 2013,14:06) Is what is “good” good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good? There is no easy simple answer to this question.  Either one you pick leaves a disturbing result.   Or is it possible that neither is correct, or that there is some other option? This is a very old question that has troubled deep thinkers since Plato's time. Hi David, God defines for us what “Good” is, and it's up to us whether or not we want to be good. When we make the decision to be good, then God helps us to comply. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed,

So, is this option 1– things are good or bad only and specifically because God says they are.

[david]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 26 2013,16:08)

David, I believe “God commands it because it is good”, an item is classified as good by how its implementation supports either love of others, or selfishness. That's why love fulfills the law, imagine if all the worlds decisions (business, political, personal) were based on putting others needs first, it would be heaven on earth. Wm

Hi seeking truth,

I'm not exactly sure what you mean and am also not sure if you hold one of the two options as the answer or not.

[david]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 26 2013,15:44)

but God could have said that thing are GOOD  because he expected them from the works of others and so declared them good to him ,

It's weird. I'm not sure anyone picked one of the two options.

It seems this is a hard or troubling question.

[seekingtruth]

Quote (david @ Jan. 27 2013,04:04)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 26 2013,16:08) David, I believe “God commands it because it is good”, an item is classified as good by how its implementation supports either love of others, or selfishness. That's why love fulfills the law, imagine if all the worlds decisions (business, political, personal) were based on putting others needs first, it would be heaven on earth. Wm Hi seeking truth, I'm not exactly sure what you mean and am also not sure if you hold one of the two options as the answer or not.

David,
Long time since we've corresponded. I hold the second option listed in your second post. Sorry my response was confusing but I believe a God of love would only call something good if it is.

2. God says something is “good” because it actually is good.

Wm

[terraricca]

Quote (david @ Jan. 27 2013,02:05)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 26 2013,15:44) but God could have said that thing are GOOD  because he expected them from the works of others and so declared them good to him , It's weird.  I'm not sure anyone picked one of the two options.   It seems this is a hard or troubling question.

david

I do not believe that God created about 100,millions of angels to sit around ,it seems that they do perform works ,

so why could it not be that God the great Architect follows his creative projects and after completion gives his final approval

would this not be an orderly fashion

[942767]

Quote (david @ Jan. 26 2013,14:06)

Is what is “good” good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good? There is no easy simple answer to this question.  Either one you pick leaves a disturbing result.   Or is it possible that neither is correct, or that there is some other option? This is a very old question that has troubled deep thinkers since Plato's time.

Hi David:

God commands it “because it is good”. He has defined evil as “sin” which is:

Quote

3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Quote

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[david]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 27 2013,07:37)

Quote (david @ Jan. 27 2013,04:04) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 26 2013,16:08) David, I believe “God commands it because it is good”, an item is classified as good by how its implementation supports either love of others, or selfishness. That's why love fulfills the law, imagine if all the worlds decisions (business, political, personal) were based on putting others needs first, it would be heaven on earth. Wm Hi seeking truth, I'm not exactly sure what you mean and am also not sure if you hold one of the two options as the answer or not. David, Long time since we've corresponded. I hold the second option listed in your second post. Sorry my response was confusing but I believe a God of love would only call something good if it is. 2. God says something is “good” because it actually is good. Wm

Hi seeking,

So, to be clear, you believe that goodness or badness are independent of God and would exist whether God stated something was good or bad.

For example: lying is bad and even if Gid hadn't said it was bad, it would still be bad. And God is merely passing on this truth–that lying is bad.

In this case, he is sort of like a messenger, not the creator of morals, but merely passing on or staring what is true: lying is bad, stealing is bad, etc.

[david]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 27 2013,07:37)

Quote (david @ Jan. 27 2013,04:04) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 26 2013,16:08) David, I believe “God commands it because it is good”, an item is classified as good by how its implementation supports either love of others, or selfishness. That's why love fulfills the law, imagine if all the worlds decisions (business, political, personal) were based on putting others needs first, it would be heaven on earth. Wm Hi seeking truth, I'm not exactly sure what you mean and am also not sure if you hold one of the two options as the answer or not. David, Long time since we've corresponded. I hold the second option listed in your second post. Sorry my response was confusing but I believe a God of love would only call something good if it is. 2. God says something is “good” because it actually is good. Wm

This would also make it seem that God is bound by the laws of morality, just as we are.
And that Morality could attain its authority even if God did not exist.

Is God a law giver, [or] a law transmitter?  This is why some do not like this option.

[david]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 27 2013,13:27)

Quote (david @ Jan. 26 2013,14:06) Is what is “good” good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good? There is no easy simple answer to this question.  Either one you pick leaves a disturbing result.   Or is it possible that neither is correct, or that there is some other option? This is a very old question that has troubled deep thinkers since Plato's time. Hi David: God commands it “because it is good”.  He has defined evil as “sin” which is: Quote 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.   Quote 1Jo 3:8   He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.   Love in Christ, Marty

Hi 94.

I'm not sure you really answered the question.

You have stated that sinning is breaking Gods law (commands of good and bad; do this, don't do this). But my question is more so of how is the “good” determined? Or, how the bad? Or, how does God decided what is good or what is bad?

For those that are leaning towards option 2, think about circumcision or something like that. It was “good” (necessary) for them to do this because God said so. But, had the nations around the Israelites already been doing that, perhaps he would have said it was “bad” (like tattoos, or markings on the body, or cutting their side locks short)

[terraricca]

If we start with the principal that God his good then all has to Be good ,but if it is someone else that does the work then it is obvious that it at to be declared good by the one that created all thing

[seekingtruth]

Quote (david @ Jan. 28 2013,13:39)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 27 2013,07:37) Quote (david @ Jan. 27 2013,04:04) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 26 2013,16:08) David, I believe “God commands it because it is good”, an item is classified as good by how its implementation supports either love of others, or selfishness. That's why love fulfills the law, imagine if all the worlds decisions (business, political, personal) were based on putting others needs first, it would be heaven on earth. Wm Hi seeking truth, I'm not exactly sure what you mean and am also not sure if you hold one of the two options as the answer or not. David, Long time since we've corresponded. I hold the second option listed in your second post. Sorry my response was confusing but I believe a God of love would only call something good if it is. 2. God says something is “good” because it actually is good. Wm This would also make it seem that God is bound by the laws of morality, just as we are. And that Morality could attain its authority even if God did not exist. Is God a law giver, a law transmitter?  This is why some do not like this option.

David,
God is bound by the laws of morality, not because they're “laws” but because it's His nature. God is good, God is love, and love does no wrong. Lying, stealing, etc violate God's very nature.

As to “Morality could attain its authority even if God did not exist.” Without God nothing exists.

Wm

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ Jan. 26 2013,17:06)

Is what is “good” good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good? There is no easy simple answer to this question.  Either one you pick leaves a disturbing result.   Or is it possible that neither is correct, or that there is some other option? This is a very old question that has troubled deep thinkers since Plato's time.

Hi Plato.

My thinking is that God commands it because it is good and what is good is him. And what is him? Light, love, mercy, patient, eternal…

I don't think it is the other way round because that seems to imply a sort of random selection of what is good and bad which is based on nothing. So what is good is based on what is God. God is not based on what is good because he wouldn't be God, Good would be.

God is eternal and unchanging because he is perfect and doesn't need improving. What is good is him and of him. Anything that is not what he is, is probably a bad idea because it is really just the lack of God. So the opposite of the only eternal God's character can only be a bad idea because it is hard for it to co-exist with him and the way he created all things and called it good. There is actually nothing that does not come from God or by taking that which comes from God and choosing the lack of it. Love hate for example.

But God gave us free will and that meant he had to provide that opposite option that is essentially not him. This he called bad. But is it really bad? I think it is because who of us could argue against a world where all followed God when compared to our world. If we could compare them side by side, I think we would choose God's world any day of the week. Sure some would choose the opposite, but people choose bad because they like the feeling of rebelling and have little concern for their negative actions toward others. Such people create or enable bad. Bad often feels good to people, but comes at others expense. Whereas I think God's Kingdom is a win win for all subjects of that Kingdom.

The lack of love is bad. The lack of light is bad. Created beings who are made in the image of God, also know such things are bad. This is because God created laws and they are the foundation of his creation. So things are good when they are in line with the laws and the laws are in line with God's person and character. So breaking the law is bad.

But again, is bad really bad only because that is what we are told. Let's imagine if God allowed Satan to take over this universe and keep it because it was too sinful for God now and he couldn't even look at it anymore. So he decided to make a new one for himself and rather than destroy the old one, he thought, why not let it exist. Then what is good and what is bad is what Satan would dictate. Yet somehow, I cannot see beings under his rule agreeing that what he calls good is good. Because what is good is only good for those at the top so to speak. I think many would just suffer and perhaps the powerful would get pleasure from the suffering of others. So I don't think that many would call that good, even if Satan thought it was. But let's take this further and say he was able to have the old universe under one condition. That all beings had free will to exist or die. Then I think that all who were picked on would choose death because their existence would be unbearable. Then the ones that live would turn on each other and there would be new victims, and then they would choose death. It would be a self imploding kingdom IMO and then there would be Satan and one being left. Something tells me they wouldn't get on and then Satan would be alone and then would probably choose to die at some point because he would be so bored. He would only have memories at this point.

I think what would need to happen is for Satan to come up with his own idea of existence and then create life to participate in what he thinks is good. He could hard wire beings to agree with him at conscience level and so what he says is good is generally considered good by others because they are wired that way. But could such a world actually work?

My guess is that he could not even come up with one original thought and thus would only steal ideas from God but change things around and eventually make a hash of everything because they are not his ideas.  I suspect that it would fall short of the intended glory that God has for all his ideas and it would just be plain bad.

It seems that the one who first thought up everything was able to tie them all together in perfect harmony. Any tampering with that, would result in something less impressive to say the least.

[Richtuner]

Is what is “evil” evil because God commands it, or does God command it because it is evil?
that would demand an equal answer.

[terraricca]

why would God say something like “it is good ” if no one his around ,???

and what was the reason to say this would it be so that we know that at a certain in moment in time things were “GOOD”

and that so their was no corruption ,

it could be that also he wanted others to know what his GOOD and what GOOD means to him ,

[Author]

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