Free Will?

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,13:01)

Hi 94, You say “Those who are alive when Jesus come for the church will have received the Mark of the Beast and will be judged by the seven last plagues according to their works.  They will not be resurrected to incur further judgment. (Rev. 19:20-21)” After death the judgement-for all who have not already passed from death to life

Hi Nick:

After spiritual separation from God, then comes the judgment (It is appointed for man once to die, but after this the judgment). Jesus paid the judgment that was against all of mankind. If someone is not saved, then they will be judged according to their works. They rejected the free gift of God.

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Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

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Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

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Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This last scripture speaks of the devil being cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet already are. Because of this and the fact that the wrath of God has already been poured out upon them through the seven last plagues. I don't believe that they will be resurrected to incur further judgment.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
The millenial kingdom is after the great tribulation and all who die during the time of the tribulation will be raised to judgement and possibly the second death

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 16 2008,15:02)

Hi 94, The millenial kingdom is after the great tribulation and all who die during the time of the tribulation will be raised to judgement and possibly the second death

Hi Nick:

My understanding is that the second resurrection is for those who died in their sins prior to the coming of the Lord. They have not been judged, and consequently, they will have to come up and give an account of their life to God, and they will be judged according to their works.

It would not make any sense for God to judge those who have had the wrath poured out on them in the form of the seven last plagues to be resurrected and judged again. They have already been judged.

God Bless

[meerkat]

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 16 2008,12:52)

The First Man Adam was made a living soul. He was alive to God, and in communion with him untill he sinned.

I don't have much time at the moment (family to feed) will comment on this piece :-

From what I can see Adam was living in the flesh
living =
H2416
חי
chay
khah'ee
From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: – + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.
soul =
H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): – any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

– Doesn't seem to be spiritual

̂first earthly

then spiritual

[Tiffany]

942767

You say the second resurrection is for all who died before Christ.
By what “works” do you think they can be saved?

Georg

[942767]

Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 16 2008,15:35)

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 16 2008,12:52) The First Man Adam was made a living soul.  He was alive to God, and in communion with him untill he sinned. I don't have much time at the moment (family to feed) will comment on this piece :- From what I can see Adam was living in the flesh living = H2416 חי chay khah'ee From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: –  + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop. soul = H5315 נפשׁ nephesh neh'-fesh From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): – any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.  not spiritual first earthly then spiritual

Hi MK:

Perhaps when you have the time you can read and understand what I have given you. God made man in his own image. The first man Adam was made a living soul, and he was in communion with God until he sinned.

And what I am emphasizing is the death or spiritual separation from God because of sin.

I am not talking about the last Adam. Anyone who has been born again is not dead to God. Their soul is alive to God because their sins have been forgiven, and they have access to God through the Spirit God in the body of Christ.

[942767]

Quote (Tiffany @ Dec. 16 2008,15:44)

942767 You say the second resurrection is for all who died before Christ. By what “works” do you think they can be saved? Georg

Hi Georg:

I said that my understanding is that the second resurrection is for all who died in their sins prior to the Lord coming for the church during the NT era. They died in their sins and have not been judged, and consequently, they will be resurrected to incur judgment. They won't be saved because there is no more sacrifice for their sins. No one can be saved through their own works.

[meerkat]

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 16 2008,15:56)

Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 16 2008,15:35) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 16 2008,12:52) The First Man Adam was made a living soul. He was alive to God, and in communion with him untill he sinned. I don't have much time at the moment (family to feed) will comment on this piece :- From what I can see Adam was living in the flesh living = H2416 חי chay khah'ee From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: – + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop. soul = H5315 נפשׁ nephesh neh'-fesh From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): – any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it. not spiritual first earthly then spiritual Hi MK: Perhaps when you have the time you can read and understand what I have given you. God made man in his own image. The first man Adam was made a living soul, and he was in communion with God until he sinned. And what I am emphasizing is the death or spiritual separation from God because of sin. I am not talking about the last Adam. Anyone who has been born again is not dead to God. Their soul is alive to God because their sins have been forgiven, and they have access to God through the Spirit God in the body of Christ.

Yes,

I can see what you are thinking, that first was a spiritual creation then a fall to physical and then another spiritual resurrection, but I do not see that as the overall plan of God, when I read corinthians, Romans, and other scriptures.

When he said let us make man in our image – I think it is more along the lines of an ongoing creation that will take time to complete, and that 1st man is created body and soul (natural) tested and found wanting, then Jesus is manifested in due time, and raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit, he is the first fruits.

[NickHassan]

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 16 2008,16:01)

Quote (Tiffany @ Dec. 16 2008,15:44) 942767 You say the second resurrection is for all who died before Christ. By what “works” do you think they can be saved? Georg Hi Georg: I said that my understanding is that the second resurrection is for all who died in their sins prior to the Lord coming for the church during the NT era.  They died in their sins and have not been judged, and consequently, they will be resurrected to incur judgment.  They won't be saved because there is no more sacrifice for their sins.  No one can be saved through their own works.

Hi 94,
Why do you think those who die since the time of Christ never face judgement?

'After death the judgement' does not seem to leave a loophole for them.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 17 2008,09:32)

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 16 2008,16:01) Quote (Tiffany @ Dec. 16 2008,15:44) 942767 You say the second resurrection is for all who died before Christ. By what “works” do you think they can be saved? Georg Hi Georg: I said that my understanding is that the second resurrection is for all who died in their sins prior to the Lord coming for the church during the NT era.  They died in their sins and have not been judged, and consequently, they will be resurrected to incur judgment.  They won't be saved because there is no more sacrifice for their sins.  No one can be saved through their own works. Hi 94, Why do you think those who die since the time of Christ never face judgement? 'After death the judgement' does not seem to leave a loophole for them.

Hi Nick:

What I said is those in the OT who died in their sins have already been judged.

The judgment rendered to Adam by God for his disobedience  is given in Genesis 3:17-19.  Those who lived during this time until the flood suffered the same judgment.  Those in the days of Noah who were not saved were judged by the flood.

The following scripture states sin is not imputed where there is no law which I understand to mean that each sin that man commits is not judged individually, but the wages of sin is death, spiritual and physical.

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Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Those under the law of Moses were judged under the law.

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Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

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Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Pharoah and his army were judged by God when he drowned them in the sea as they pursued the Israelites.  Sodom and Ghomorrah was judged by fire and brimstone, the Caanites were judged by the Sword of the Israelites.

These are the reasons why I understand that those in the OT who died in their sins have already been judged.  They are dead bothe spirtually and physically.

God Bless

[GeneBalthrop]

942767……….”it is appointed unto all to die once then (AFTER) That they shall be judge and give account of what they have done in the flesh.” Paul said He turned some over to Satan for the destruction of the Flesh that their Spirit would be saved on the day of dgement. So don't write anyone of yet. The Flesh may die but the Spirit can be saved.

love and peace to you………………gene

[meerkat]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 17 2008,14:33)

942767……….”it is appointed unto all to die once then (AFTER) That they shall be judge and give account of what they have done in the flesh.” Paul said He turned some over to Satan for the destruction of the Flesh that their Spirit would be saved on the day of dgement. So don't write anyone of yet. The Flesh may die but the Spirit can be saved. love and peace to you………………gene

Yes

FIRST natural (flesh) ->death -> judgement ->
then SPIRIT = LIFE

[NickHassan]

Hi MK,
We are reborn of the Spirit of life while we yet live.

Rom8
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

[chosenone]

nd creating

[chosenone]

My last post was an error, please disregard.

Hi 942767.
I have to disagree with this statement you made to MK,
Hi MK:
Perhaps when you have the time you can read and understand what I have given you. God made man in his own image. The first man Adam was made a living soul, and he was in communion with God until he sinned.

You say, “God made man in his own image”. In Genesis 1:28, it says: “And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image”. Notice it says “And creating…”, this is in the future tense, not yet completed. Humanity will be “in the image of God”, when creation is completed, still in the future.
This can be verified by the scripture, 2Cor.4:4 …of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, , this is speaking of “Jesus”. Obviously, we are not yet the same as Jesus, and not in the “image of God”.
This seems to be a common error of belief in scripture.

Blessings.

[942767]

Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 19 2008,17:28)

My last post was an error, please disregard. Hi 942767.   I have to disagree with this statement you made to MK, Hi MK: Perhaps when you have the time you can read and understand what I have given you.  God made man in his own image.  The first man Adam was made a living soul, and he was in communion with God until he sinned.      You say, “God made man in his own image”.   In Genesis 1:28, it says: “And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image”.  Notice it says “And creating…”, this is in the future tense, not yet completed.  Humanity will be “in the image of God”, when creation is completed, still in the future.   This can be verified by the scripture, 2Cor.4:4 …of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, , this is speaking of “Jesus”.  Obviously, we are not yet the same as Jesus, and not in the “image of God”.   This seems to be a common error of belief in scripture. Blessings.

Hi CO:

I am perfectly aware that the first Adam was not the finished product.  As Christians, we will be like Jesus when he comes for the church.

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Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Verse 27 states that God created man in his (own) image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

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Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The first man Adam became a living soul when God breathed the breathe of life into his nostrils.  He like God in that he has a mind, a free will, and emotions.

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1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

The last man Adam is Jesus who was made a life giving spirit.  And we as born again Christians, are being made in the image of God as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily lives.  When Jesus comes for the church, we will receive a spiritual body.

And so where is it that you disagree with me?

[GeneBalthrop]

Chosenone …….I have hear that also clarified, and agree it should be read< "creating is the Elohim Humanity into His image", showing a process taking place with us. We have not yet been completely created in His image yet, until we come to the full measure of Christ.

love and peace to you and yours………………..gene

[NickHassan]

GB,
Of course none can come to the fullness of Christ except that first Christ is born into him.

The Galatians had been reborn into Christ.
Gal 3
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

But Paul was frustrated that Christ was not yet manifesting in them.

Gal4
19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

20I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

Allowing the Spirit to rule is a daily choice for the reborn.

Gal5
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

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Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

That path is full of choices.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Take up the cross daily.
Choose to do so.

Deny self does not say do our will to death which is not possible.

If we ignore it then it is yet controlling us.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 03 2008,19:15)

Hi Gollamundi.     Thank you for your appreciation.  You are right, God does have the capability of saving all, and He will.  Look way back in the book of “Isaiah” Chapter 46:10-11. This is God describing Himself:   10  Telling from the beginning, the hereafter,     And from aforetime, what has not yet been done.     Saying, All My counsel shall be confirmed,     And all My desire will I do. 11  Indeed, I speak! Indeed, I will bring it about!     I formed. Indeed, I will do it.     Are these words not inspiring,? They confirm that our God is in complete control, and He “WILL DO” all His desires. If He desires all mankind to be saved, He will do it, who can oppose?     The book of Ephesians is a great book to get the overall picture of what God is doing with His creation, especially the first chapter.     Also, I find the Concordant website a great source for truth of scripture, (concordant.org) Blessings, Jerry.

Nick…..read it and think about it. Chosen is right in this.

love and peace……………..gene

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