Free Will?

[gollamudi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 27 2008,07:19)

Hi CO, Certainly God will be in all of the remnant people.

Hi brother Nick,
Where is it written in the Bible ?

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 27 2008,16:55)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 26 2008,00:11) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 24 2008,13:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 22 2008,15:40) Hi GB, If God did not say so who should presume on His will and teach something when it is not written? A brave but foolish man might. Nick….1 Ti 2:2-3….> for this is good and acceptable in the sight of GOD our Savior: who (WILL HAVE) ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  Who am I to disagree with what GOD WILL HAVE DONE. Maybe some foolish who think they represent Him might be bold enough to say the opposite but not me. Plus there are many other scriptures that show this also, as I have quoted many times before. We either believe the word of God or not. Hi Gene, There are Christians who feel as if Christianity is not an exclusive club unless many are excluded. God's will, will be done. Tim Tim, What do you mean? Thanks, Mandy

Hi Mandy,

sorry it took so long to get back to you.

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED” (I Tim.2:4).

“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Saviour of ALL MEN… [does that say exclusively believers? no] of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe” (I Tim. 4:10).

Scriptures actually say that God “WILL save all men,” It doesn’t say that God will want to save all men but can not because some will reject his offer.

The church teaches that the majority of the human race will be damned and tortured in fire for all eternity. They take some joy or at least relief in the fact that they have their salvation and the others are left outside. They seem to relish the fact that most are excluded from their club. They think that God, “Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will”, Eph 1:11
lied about willing that all men be saved.

There are literally dozens of scriptures that show God being the one who ultimately is the cause of everything from plagues to poverty, because God
operates all things after the council of His own will, the same will that will have all men to be saved.

Tim

[chosenone]

Hi TimothyVI.
Well written, amen to that. We don't “GO” to church, we “ARE” the church (ecclesia). The use of the word “church”, has lost its original meaning over time.

Blessings.

[gollamudi]

Wonderful post my brother Tim indeed it is. God is the ultimate decider of our destiny not ourselves.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[david]

Quote

There are literally dozens of scriptures that show God being the one who ultimately is the cause of everything from plagues to poverty

I would say Satan, the god of this world, is the one responsible for much of the wickedness we see. God Almighty allows it, but is that the same as “causing” it?

[TimothyVI]

Hi David,

If I watched my adult child beat his dog to death and did nothing to intervene,
would I not have some share in the responsibility?

Tim

[GeneBalthrop]

Tim………good point…….God said He created (Both) good and evil, and there is scriptures that say He even brings it on a person, as in the case of Job. God is not only in full control of all things but even takes full responsibility for it. He could have stopped all evil at any time He wanted to and still could. He is SOVEREIGN in ALL THINGS> Good teaches us what Evil (IS) and Evil teaches us what Good (IS), you can't understand one without the other.

peace to you and yours……………….gene

[chosenone]

Quote (david @ Oct. 29 2008,18:47)

Quote There are literally dozens of scriptures that show God being the one who ultimately is the cause of everything from plagues to poverty I would say Satan, the god of this world, is the one responsible for much of the wickedness we see.  God Almighty allows it, but is that the same as “causing” it?

Hi David.
The asnswer to your question is in Eph.1:11, …being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

The first chapter in Ephesians is very revealing of what God is doing, actually, the whole book of Ephesians is worth studying regarding this.

Blessings, Jerry.

[GeneBalthrop]

Chosenone……good point, God has and is doing everything after the council of His own will. All things that happen are allowed by God and therefore He is the total responsible one for all things that happen.

peace to you and yours…………….gene

[942767]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 30 2008,00:11)

Hi David, If I watched my adult child beat his dog to death and did nothing to intervene, would I not have some share in the responsibility? Tim

Hi Tim:

God has given dominion of the earth to mankind, and so, instead of trying to blame God for the evils of the world, the question is what are you and I doing about it.

God has given his only begotten Son so that even the most wicked man can be forgiven and reconciled to Him if that wicked man chooses to do so, and so, God allows the deeds of evil men hoping that they will hear the gospel and repent.

He has also ordained that man would have law enforcement to punish evil doers.

He has also given us assurance that man will give an account for the life that he has lived in this body.

God Bless

[gollamudi]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 30 2008,00:11)

Hi David, If I watched my adult child beat his dog to death and did nothing to intervene, would I not have some share in the responsibility? Tim

Hi brother Tim,
Good question. If God is not involved in the activities of this creation then what way He is related to it when we say we are His children ?

[david]

Quote

Hi David, If I watched my adult child beat his dog to death and did nothing to intervene, would I not have some share in the responsibility? Tim

Yes, you raised your child badly. You should have taught him that such things are wrong.

I had said:

Quote

I would say Satan, the god of this world, is the one responsible for much of the wickedness we see.  God Almighty allows it, but is that the same as “causing” it?

Isn't it interesting that God gets all the bad press.  As Gene points out he's created good and evil.  Of course the word “evil” in those instances could just as easily be rendered “calamity.”  When we think of evil, we think of doing wrong or bad things on purpose.  But “evil” can simply mean a bad thing that happens.  And from the perspective of one's who recieve God's judgement, what they are receiving could definitely be called “evil” (for them.)  But it's actually “righteous on God's part to repay tribulation” in that way.
Yet, no one seems to look at what that word that is translated “evil” actually means.  They just want to paint God almighty as “evil.”
Even with scriptures that say Satan the devil is THE GOD OF THIS WORLD, people under his influence still want to put blame on Jehovah. Has anyone ever blamed Satan for any of this? Remember him, the god of this system of things?

Allowing something bad FOR A TERRIFIC REASON and causing something bad without reason are two very different things.

It's largely a matter of perspective.

If you allowed your child (who beats dogs) to get a needle to ensure it didn't get sick, the child might not understand the reason for this pain.  It only sees the pain.  It only sees what it would describe as “evil” or bad.  But you, the Father, know more than the child.  
You know it was Satan who brought about sin, and with it sickness and death.  You know Satan is responsible for this, which God allows because of the larger issues.

Those issues are these:
Does God have the right to rule mankind?–See Genesis.
Will any humans obey God out of love?–See Job.

Satan had said the humans could do better on their own.  Spirit creation was watching.  Killing the rebels (Satan,Adam, Eve) would show God's power, but would'n't prove he was right, or that humans are better off with God.  So, God's letting us try our own rulership, our own kingdoms.  The world goes from one mess to another.  We have half a billion literally starving.  A billion without proper water or food.  We have people killing one another for shoes, or oil, or whatever.  It's a mess.  (2 tim 3:1-5)

Tim, I think your example is flawed.  Try this.  You notice your son's dog is vicious.  You warn your son about this, but he ignores you.  Time goes by.  The dog has just killed two of your three grandchildren.  You and your adult son arrive to find this happening.  Your son kills the dog.  You allow it to happen.

Would anyone in this situation say YOU are responsible or share responsibility for this happening?  No, you warned against it.  You didn't want it to happen.  It wasn't your will or desire for the dog to die.  You even tried to prevent this situation from ever arising.  But it did arise.  And you allowed it to happen, because you knew that letting this bad thing happen (dog dying) was for the welfare of the majority.

This is what I'm talking about.  Not God letting badness happen for no reason.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 31 2008,10:01)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 30 2008,00:11) Hi David, If I watched my adult child beat his dog to death and did nothing to intervene, would I not have some share in the responsibility? Tim Hi Tim: God has given dominion of the earth to mankind, and so, instead of trying to blame God for the evils of the world, the question is what are you and I doing about it.

Hi 94,
David said that God allows the wickedness that we see.
I merely posed the question that if I allowed my adult son to do a wicked deed and did not intervene, should I share in the responsibility?
Why is it necessary to insinuate that I am” trying to blame God” for something?

[942767]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 01 2008,07:22)

Quote (942767 @ Oct. 31 2008,10:01) Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 30 2008,00:11) Hi David, If I watched my adult child beat his dog to death and did nothing to intervene, would I not have some share in the responsibility? Tim Hi Tim: God has given dominion of the earth to mankind, and so, instead of trying to blame God for the evils of the world, the question is what are you and I doing about it. Hi 94, David said that God allows the wickedness that we see. I merely posed the question that if I allowed my adult son to do a wicked deed and did not intervene, should I share in the responsibility? Why is it necessary to insinuate that I am” trying to blame God” for something?

Hi Tim:

Are you insinuating that God is doing evil because He does not intervene when He allows the evil that people do in this world or not?

[GeneBalthrop]

942767……God has given dominion of the earth to mankind right, then what do you do with these scriptures. Dan 4:25…> That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beast of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, tell thou know the the most High (ruleth in the kingdom of men) and giveth it to whomsoever he will. again Rom 13:1…> :et every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is (NO) POWER but of GOD: the powers that be are ordained of GOD. and verse 4….> for he is a minister of GOD to thee for good. But if thous do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of GOD, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. It does appear God is envolved in everything going on from what scripture shows.

peace to you and yours………..gene

[david]

Quote

I merely posed the question that if I allowed my adult son to do a wicked deed and did not intervene, should I share in the responsibility? Why is it necessary to insinuate that I am” trying to blame God” for something?

If someone is responsible for something, then they are to blame. If they share the responsibility, then they share the blame.

Why not blame the real one who is responsible for sin, wickedness, death, etc–the god of this world, Satan?

[TimothyVI]

Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2008,16:39)

Quote I merely posed the question that if I allowed my adult son to do a wicked deed and did not intervene, should I share in the responsibility? Why is it necessary to insinuate that I am” trying to blame God” for something? If someone is responsible for something, then they are to blame.  If they share the responsibility, then they share the blame. Why not blame the real one who is responsible for sin, wickedness, death, etc–the god of this world, Satan?

Does not satan have to ask permission from God before he can do anything? You should read Job.

I am sorry David, I did not realize until now that you believe that God is not in control.

TIm

[TimothyVI]

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 01 2008,08:52)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 01 2008,07:22) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 31 2008,10:01) Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 30 2008,00:11) Hi David, If I watched my adult child beat his dog to death and did nothing to intervene, would I not have some share in the responsibility? Tim Hi Tim: God has given dominion of the earth to mankind, and so, instead of trying to blame God for the evils of the world, the question is what are you and I doing about it. Hi 94, David said that God allows the wickedness that we see. I merely posed the question that if I allowed my adult son to do a wicked deed and did not intervene, should I share in the responsibility? Why is it necessary to insinuate that I am” trying to blame God” for something? Hi Tim: Are you insinuating that God is doing evil because He does not intervene when He allows the evil that people do in this world or not?

Hi 94,

Are you insinuating such a thing because God allows the evil that men do?

Tim

[TimothyVI]

Quote (david @ Oct. 31 2008,18:14)

Tim, I think your example is flawed.  Try this.  You notice your son's dog is vicious.  You warn your son about this, but he ignores you.  Time goes by.  The dog has just killed two of your three grandchildren.  You and your adult son arrive to find this happening.  Your son kills the dog.  You allow it to happen. Would anyone in this situation say YOU are responsible or share responsibility for this happening?  No, you warned against it.  You didn't want it to happen.  It wasn't your will or desire for the dog to die.  You even tried to prevent this situation from ever arising.  But it did arise.  And you allowed it to happen, because you knew that letting this bad thing happen (dog dying) was for the welfare of the majority. This is what I'm talking about.  Not God letting badness happen for no reason.

Hi David,

Your example is flawed beyond recognition.
You took my simple question and added all kinds of ludicrous presumptions so that you could give an answer to your question and not mine.
You are insinuating that God only allows bad things to happen to vicious grandchildren killers. That is too ridiculous to even deserve a response.

This was definitely not your best effort David.

Tim

[942767]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 01 2008,13:20)

942767……God has given dominion of the earth to mankind right, then what do you do with these scriptures. Dan 4:25…> That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beast of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, tell thou know the the most High (ruleth in the kingdom of men) and giveth it to whomsoever he will. again Rom 13:1…> :et every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is (NO) POWER but of GOD: the powers that be are ordained of GOD. and  verse 4….> for he is a minister of GOD to thee for good. But if thous do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of GOD, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. It does appear God is envolved in everything going on from what scripture shows. peace to you and yours………..gene

Hi Gene:

No one said that God was not involved. The question was if he shared the responsibility for the evil that man does since he does not intervene. The scripture states that he will reward every man according to his works. And so, while people are trying to find fault with a holy and righteous God, He will judge humanity for the evil that is done in this earth. In the OT judgement has already occurred, but in the new covenant judgment will be delayed until the last days.

He has given dominion of the earth to mankind, and it is through him that he will accomplish his will which is the salvation of his children.

In the scripture that you quote from Daniel God did get involved but the scripture states:

Quote

Dan 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that THE MOST HIGH RULETH IN THE KINGDOM OF MEN, AND GIVETH IT TO WHOMEVER HE WILL.

As for the rest of your statement, I have already stated that He has ordained law enforcement to punish evil doers. Again, this is accomplished through men.

Also, I pray to God every day and ask Him to asking for his help as I seek to do His will. He is my helper.

He allows the evil in this world hoping that mankind will repent and be reconciled to him. He does not want to destroy anyone.

Quote

3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God Bless

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