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Proclaimer…….Love does not require a, ” FREE WILL,”,
If you cannot choose freely to love or reject God, then there is no such thing as love. Instead there is only God directing everything and just misfortune if God decides that you cannot love him.
Think rationally about this. If there is no free will, then there shouldn’t be responsibility or judgement because we have no choice, so should not be held responsible. Yet, we are made responsible for our choices and there is a judgement.
13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Ezra 7:13 (KJV)EDJ……Good to hear from you brother, we have been down this road before, it is unfortuniate they who translated that scripture used that word “freewill” , but the actual word inplies whoever wants to do it, and it has nothing to do with the subject matter of a “Will” being free, or not. Yes we do have “freedom” to excerise our “captivated” & “motivated “, driven wills, but those driven Wills are far from being “FREE’ . They are all drive by our lusts and desires . John said (not me), “for “ALL” that is in the world, the lust of (that which comes from ) the flesh ,and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of (that comes from) life , are “OF”, (that which comes from) the world, and the world is passing away, and so is the “LUST” there of.”.
If we are all going to debate this subject again, then please address the things I have written, just disagreeing with it, is not enough, please show me where I am wrong in what I have written. Show where they are not scriptural, I believe, I gave good reasons for my convictions, from scriptures , please show me where I am wrong .
We are not call to self, “WILL” our way to salvation, but to obey or disobey, the “Will , of God, which can only be accomplished by, the Spirit of God working in us,”CAUSING” us, “both” to “WILL” and do God’s good pleasure”. “You must be born again”, Our new wills must become driven by the “LOVE OF GOD” , SHED ABROAD “IN” OUR HEARTS”. Just as scripture says , (not me). I am a new creation of God , being ” created unto rightiousness, and that, not of “myself” , it is a gift of God, who is my and Jesus’, heavenly Father.
Jesus is my brother , not my God, my relationship with God the Father is , “exactly” the same as his is, in “every” way, and so must yours also become.
Peace and love to you and yours Edj, hope all is well with you and yours………..gene
but those driven Wills are far from being “FREE’ .
An example of free will coming up:
“He gives power to the weak and strength to the powerless.”
“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”
You see. While we have sin reigning in our flesh, God also freely gives of his Spirit to counter that. Now we can choose between the flesh or the spirit.
“But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.”
Proclaimer……The Spirit of God is the will of God, not your or my Will , remwmber what Jesus said when he told us how to pray (not me)…..”Thy kingdom come “THY WILL” be done , ob earth as in heaven”. it does not say our Will’s, Be done, now does it?, just one Will is to be done , we must put our Will’s , to death, Exactly as Jesus did his, brother?
Peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer………gene
Yes Gene. Using our will, we need to choose to do God’s will. Flesh or Spirit. We have free will, so it is our choice. The flesh wages war with us. but the Spirit strengthen and guides us. We are not robots. We get to choose.
Proclaimer………Jesus said (not me) …...Matt 26:39……and he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless NOT as “I WILL” , but as YOU WILL.
Jesus’ “WILL” , was not to die, that is obivious, but in obedience to God the Father he had to put his own “Will” TO DEATH. That is obivious from his own words right?
So what , “caused” him to do that sense it is obvious his ”will” was not to die? What “caused” Jesus to put his “will” to death? Was it his own Will? No that is not what caused him to put himself and his “Will” to death.
Here is the answer ……. It was his “love” for the Father, OVER “his love for himself, which gave him, “total” “FAITH IN the Father”, was his “FIRST LOVE”, it had nothing to do with his own ‘WILL” .
Remember, Jesus said , (not me) …..This is the greatest commandment, …..“YOU SHALL “LOVE” the LORD your God with “ALL”, YOUR Your heart, and with “ALL” your Soul, and with “ALL” your mind.
Jesus’ , “FIRST LOVE”, was for God the Father, “not himself” , that is how he was able to put his own “WILL” to death, we must do the exact same thing, by loving God the Father, the exact same way as Jesus did, and , with that “FIRST LOVE” in us we can also put our own “WILL’S” , to death, As Jesus did his, so that only one “Will”, shall be Done . “the Will of God the Father” .
Peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer………gene
During all HIS EARTHLY MINISTRY, JESUS, FOR THE LOVE OF THE FATHER, AND FOR THE LOVE OF US HAS RENIED HIMSELF TO DO NOT HIS WILL BUT HIS FATHER’S WILL.
AT GETHSEMANNE, HIS DECISION TO DRINK THE BITTER CUP WAS TERRIBLE AND MADE HIM SWEAT LUMPS OF BLOOD.
[4] Surely he hath borne our grievances, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.God bless
Proclaimer………Jesus said (not me) ……Matt 26:39……and he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless NOT as “I WILL” , but as YOU WILL.
Yes, he used his free will to choose God’s will. That is an example for all of us. He chose God’s will which was to suffer, rather than his own will to skip that test.
This is an example of free will Gene not a proof against it.
Proclaimer……No that is an example of putting his “will” to death, your making it like there is a will and there is a “freewill”, that dosen’t work, you either have simply a Will, that is druven by your own desires, or you have a “freewill”, that is “free” of any enfluences. Which is it, you can’t have it both ways.
My belife is, that Jesus overcame his “own” will, (desire to live) , because of two things, one his love for the Father, “his “first” love, which was greater then his love for himself, and that love was given to him by God the Father, who buy his HOLY SPIRIT, built or caused that “Love” and “Faith” in Jesus, which gave him the power to lay down his life, even unto death, for the Fathers “Will”.
That was the greatest test for all of mankind, and it had everything to do with the “Wills”, of Man kind verses the “Will”, of God.
Except we put our “Will’s” to death even as Jesus did his, we will not enter the kingdom of God. Jesus did not pay it all for us, he showed us how to “overcome” our own will’s, and it’s exactly the way he did in his life.
Just as scripture says (not me)……Eph 4:13……“Till we “all” come in the unity of the “FAITH”, and of the “knowledge” of the Son of God; unto a “perfect” man, unto the “measure” of the stature of the “FULNESS” of Christ”, (who was a “perfect” man). IMO.
WE must all put our own “Wills” to death, just as Jesus did his, in love and obedience to God the Father, then will come to pass, the saying, ” thy kingdom come , “THY WILL” , be done in earth as in heaven.
Our driven and thereby “captivated” Will’s in us, is the “worm” that must die, because if the worm dies not, neither will the fire ( of judgement) be exthinguished.
Thats another big subject that needs to be understood, but mixing up this idea that we are self willed to rightiousness, and salvation, by our own so-called “freewill’s” , is pure garbage, because there exists no such thing as a will that exists, that is free, “freewill” is a OXYMORON, because no such thing exists as a will that is “free”. The very definition of a Will shows it is something that is “driven”, that exists in us or it would’t even be called a Will now would it?
Peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer……….gene
Crucifying your own will is free will. It shows two things:
- That you have a will and it may not necessarily line up with God in all things. Having your own will means you can choose things you want.
- That you can see that God’s will is better. So you freely give up your desires or desire to not suffer to do things that you are not initially happy to do, but you trust that God’s will works out better in the long run. So you do his will instead.
Both require your own will and the freedom to choose whose will to follow.
If there is no free will, you are a robot and cannot be attributed for any good or bad works as you are simply following your programming.
If you believe that human beings have free will, have the capacity to change, and seek higher ground beyond their current lot, then belief in God necessarily follows.
– Ben Shapiro
Proclaimer…….“thy kingdom come “THY WILL” BE DONE.” the kingdom of God requires that “his” will be done, there is no choice there, you either do the will of God or you simply won’t be in his kingdom.
You believe your “freewill” choice from yourself gets you into the kingdom of God, “wrong” , By saying that you remove God the Father and his work in us, to bring about our salvation, through taking out of us, “the heart of stone and giving us a heart of flesh, and God the Father himself writing his laws in our inward parts.
You salvation is about your so called freewill choices, my salvation is about the work of God the Father in us. Scripture Say (not me), “For “he” works “in” us both to will and do of “his” good pleasure”. you may think that makes us a robot, but I certainly don’t think that. My life and my salvation comes from God the Father himself alone.
Peace and love to you and yours proclaimer…………gene
Gene,
God by his Holy Spirit works in us so that we make good choices, but if we resist his intuitions in us, we sadden him.
Our life choices rejoice the heart of God or sadden it.
It’s one or the other.
Fortunately, God is patient with us and never tires of forgiving.Deut.30
[19] I call heaven and earth to register this day against you, which I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. So choose life, that you and your posterity may live.Prov.1
[29] For they hated knowledge and chose not to fear the Lord.Prov.3
[ 31 ] Do not envy the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.Isa.56
[4] For thus says the LORD to the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths, who choose the things that please me, and who take hold of my covenant;🙏
Proclaimer…….“thy kingdom come “THY WILL” BE DONE.” the kingdom of God requires that “his” will be done, there is no choice there, you either do the will of God or you simply won’t be in his kingdom.
First off, it is good to see you exercising your free will and deciding to post here.
And yes, God has a will and he makes decisions.
But he gave you your own will too and he respects that.
It’s up to you to decide whether you want to be part of God’s plan.
That is your decision.
Proclaimer………If it were a matter of so-called “free- wills”, then God could not predict the future for any of us, why, because we could change at any time, the scripture that says , “whosoever who is born with the Spirit of God in them can not sin”. How does that work in you freewill, salvation teachings.
And again…….Scripture says, not me, “that God looked and found none righteous no not even one, they have all together become useless, so he brought salvation by his own arm”. Seems God the Father found not even one ” so-called freewill person righteous” .
Fact is the word “freewill” is an OXYMORON, because all wills are drive by what “INFLUENCES ” them the most, there exists no such thing as a Will “Itself” being “FREE”, OR it simply would not be called a will in the first place.
No scripture supports a “freewill” SALVATION OF SELF NOT ONE.
All this gs pertaining to life and salvation come from God the Father and him alone. IMO, and Jesus’ I believe also.
Peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer. ……….gene
Hi Gene,
YOU: Proclaimer……The Spirit of God is the will of God, not your or my Will , remwmber what Jesus said when he told us how to pray (not me)…..”Thy kingdom come “THY WILL” be done , ob earth as in heaven”.
Me: .”Thy kingdom come “THY WILL” be done , ob earth as in heaven”.
First and foremost:
HAVE YOU GOT A GLIMPSE OF WHAT GOD’S KINGDOM IS RIGHT NOW ON EARTH, WITH RESPECT TO JESUS’WORDS?
I see; so you Gene, SINCE THOUGH YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD THE FATHER IS SPIRIT, AND ALSO UNFATHOMABLE, AND DESPITE I MADE IT CLEAR TO YOU WHAT THE OT SAYS, IN ISAIAH 55:8,9, AND YOU YOURSELF ALSO ADMITTED THAT WHO CONTRADICTS THE OT IS A LIER, AREN’T YOU DOING WHAT ACCORDING TO YOU CONTRADICT ISAIAH ABOVE? Read again
Isaiah 55:8For my thoughts are not your thoughts:
nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,
so are my ways exalted above your ways,
and my thoughts above your thoughts.
NEVERTHELESS, LET’S MAKE THINGS CLEAR NOW FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH:
You: “Thy kingdom come “THY WILL” be done , ob earth as in heaven”.
it does not say our Will’s, Be done, now does it?,
Me: YOU WILL NEVER NEITHER LEARN NOR RESPECT GOD’S WAYS AND THAUGHTS!
YOU EVEN JUDGE GOD WITH YOUR THOUGHTS!
YOU SIMPLY PUT GOD IN THE SAME BASKET AS HUMANS Gene, AND
TOOK IT FOR GRANTED THAT WHAT JESUS SAID ABOVE,
LITERALLY MEANS,
THAT GOD’S WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IS IN HEAVEN! RIGHT?
Now, WHAT IS GOD’S WILL
MR. Genius?
WHAT IF JESUS DIED FOR OUR SAKE, IN ORDER THAT HUMANS ARE UNAWARE OF IT? I MEAN,
THAT WHEN THEY LIVE AND DO THEIR OWN FREE WILL,
IN ACTUAL FACT IN ONE INSTANT, SINCE GOD IS LOVE HE MADE IT EVEN POSSIBLE FOR HUMANITY,
THE FACT THAT HE CAME FOR THE LOST, THAT
THEY ALSO ARE LIVING AND DOING
GOD’S OWN WILL,
WOULD YOU ACCEPT THAT?
NOW SAY YES
ALL POSSIBLE OF GOD!
YOU: just one Will is to be done ,
You see Gene AS YOU WELL SAID:
ONE WILL IS TO BE DONE!
FROM OUR CARNAL-MINDED REASONING SIDE FOR SURE!
BUT GOD IS LOVE AND MERCIFUL, AND MERCY IS THE HIGHEST ATTRIBUTE OF GOD, NOT EVEN GOD’S CLOSEST ANGELS UNDERSTAND IT,
THUS FROM HIS SPIRITUAL REASONING SIDE, something you DON’T PRACTICE AT ALL, I’M AFRAID, ATTENTION NOW PLEASE:
IN ONE INSTANT:
BOTH HIS WILL AND ALSO
OUR WILL IS TO BE DONE!
THAT IS GOD’S WILL IN THE TRUTH SINCE FOR HUMANITY NOT JUST AN ORDINARY HUMAN DIED BUT BOTH
GOD
and
JESUS DIED!
You: we must put our Will’s , to death, Exactly as Jesus did his, brother?
ME: THERE YOU ARE Gene: I WONDER WHEN WILL YOU DO
WHAT EXACTLY YOU ARE SAYING?
NEVER MIND!
JESUS DID IT NOT FOR HIM, BUT FOR US, BROTHER! ATTENTION PLEASE:
ALL THE LOST!
Now, Jesus in that same prayer, said something else which needs really
A HELL OF PONDERING. Read please:
13 And lead us not into temptation.
But deliver us from evil. Amen.
Gene, literally speaking, (JESUS SAID NOT ME)
GOD LEADS US INTO TEMPTATION!
NOW, WHAT WOULD YOU MAKE OF THE ABOVE WORDS BY JESUS?
I AM WAITING, WHO KNOWS?
PERHAPS THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH WORKS IN YOU AND
YOU START RESPECTING
GOD AND HIS SPIRITUAL TEACHINGS!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel…….The correct way that scripture should be written, and understood is this way, “and let us not be lead into temptation, but deliver us from the evil”. Why, because other scripture says, “GOD TEMPTS “NO” MAN.” IF you were of the truth you would have known that.
I REALIZE YOUR MIND MAYBE CAN’T UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT NEVER THE LESS THAT IS THE PROPER WAY TO READ IT.
peace and love to you and yours Carmel……….gene
HI Gene,
Carmel…….The correct way that scripture should be written, and understood is this way, “and let us not be lead into temptation, but deliver us from the evil”. Why, because other scripture says, “GOD TEMPTS “NO” MAN.” IF you were of the truth you would have known that.
I REALIZE YOUR MIND MAYBE CAN’T UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT NEVER THE LESS THAT IS THE PROPER WAY TO READ IT.
Me Again Gene, the above is only from your perspective point of view, as an ordinary human, lacking the spiritual aspect of our task ON THIS SINFUL AND MATERIAL WORLD, WITH EVERY RESPECT.
As you well know temptations are incessant, in the same way as they were in the OT, the fact that Jesus was the most tempted for our sake.
Now on this aspect that one must ponder deeply, Jesus’ process, generally speaking, was all for our advantage, He never did it for Himself as such well clear hereunder:
Hebrews2:14 Therefore because the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner hath been partaker of the same:
that, through death, he might destroy him who had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil: 15And might deliver them, who through the fear of death were all their lifetime subject to servitude. 16For no where doth he take hold of the angels: but of the seed of Abraham he taketh hold. 17Wherefore it behoved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful priest before God, that he might be a propitiation for the sins of the people.
18For in that, wherein he himself hath suffered and been tempted,
he is able to SUCCOR them also that are tempted.
1 John 3:8….. For this purpose, the Son of God appeared,
that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Jesus purposely “THE WORD” the Son of Man, by His conception, His life, his suffering, and to His death, destroyed the entire process of the devil on this planet in relation to THIS CARNAL PROCESS, and humans are not going to be judged in relation to the flesh task, but in relation to their SPIRITUAL TASK OF THE SOUL. Well clear by Jesus in
John8:15 You judge according to the flesh:
OK Gene, WE HUMANS WON’T JUDGE ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT, SINCE WE ARE HUMANS. KEEP ON READING:
I judge not any man.
AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL: ACCORDING TO THE FLESH! RIGHT? Attention now:
16And if I do judge, my judgment is true:
because I am not alone,
but I and the Father that sent me.
Got it Gene? THE FATHER IS SPIRIT, AND JESUS JUDGES US IN RELATION TO THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT JESUS IS OUR FATHER IN RELATION TO THE FLESH WHICH HE WON ON THE CROSS! Read Jesus’ words again:
John5:24Amen, amen I say unto you,
that he who heareth my word,
and believeth him that sent me,
hath life everlasting;
and cometh not into judgment,
but is passed from death to life.
ONCE WE BELIEVE IN JESUS, WE WILL NOT BE JUDGED IN RELATION TO THE FLESH, AS JESUS GAVE US HIS FLESH BODY PAID AS A RANSOM ON HIS RESURRECTION,
HE PURCHASED US CURSED AND SINFUL.
WE MUST DO OUR BEST NOW TO LIVE IN THE SPIRIT AND REJECT ALL THAT COMES FROM THE FLESH, IN OUR CASE
TEMPTATIONS. Attention please:
Thus, temptation purifies our souls when we choose what is right.
Temptations are very profitable to man, troublesome and grievous though they may be, for in them a man is humbled, purified, and instructed.
If we never encountered struggles or faced our vices, as JESUS DID, then we wouldn’t necessarily see the value of what is good, beautiful, and true. I can’t really love God unless I choose to reject what I know offends him and what will separate me from him.
Temptation, then, aids us in acquiring JESUS’ virtues that are most lacking in our lives.
13 And lead us not into temptation.
But deliver us from evil. Amen.
WHEN JESUS SAID THOSE WORDS HE MEANT THAT
IN THE NT. FROM JESUS’ DEATH ONWARDS,
THROUGH TEMPTATIONS THEMSELVES THAT ARE INCESSANT, BY JESUS’PROCESS, WE WOULD NOT BE LED INTO TEMPTATIONS AS SUCH, AS BY REJECTING ALL TEMPTATIONS AS HE DID,
WE WOULD RECEIVE JESUS’ GRACE!
OUR SPIRITUAL SALVATION OF THE SOULS!
FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S GENERAL WORK,
IT IS HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE TO ALL HIS WORK,
Matthew 16:25 For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it.
26For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world,
and suffer the loss of his own soul?
Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
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