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Adam, I can choose to believe you or Gene, or t8, or Kerwin. I have that free will to do so….To say that I don't, is your free will to do. I however believe that I will choose God's will be done…And in the end all will have to follow God o die…..But God does not want a puppet, He wants us to choose out of love for Him….Irene.
Irene………….IF you were God and wanted every one to be exactly like you are , you say God does not want Puppets, but GOD does want to live HIS LIFE LIVED IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL> So let GOD make me his Puppet then. And all “FREE” WILLER'S are FREE FROM GOD then, unless they by their own “FREE” WILLS come to DECIDE they will Accept GOD on “their term” of course, GOD forbid it should be against “their own” so-called “FREE WILL”> All who are of God see things as He see them by (HIS) Spirit (IN) them. Has nothing to do with any so-called “FREE WILL”. But INFLUENCED WILLS, WHICH OF COURSE YOU CALL BEING GODS PUPPET. That is the same attitude Adam and Eve recieved from the serpent , they did not want to obey God or be his puppet, they wanted to BE A GOD. IMO
peace and love……………………………….gene
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,03:53) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2010,19:14) Adam your story does not tell all ,and leaves many things out of context;like there are two pen,and are one,also Gods grace is open to all,and no one can be saved but by that grace;and that were i believe confusion starts,
God as supplied the sacrifice,his son,he as supplied the rules,
and the rules are ,to obey God and become holy because he is holy,now those things can not be done unless someone accept the grace rules,this is were your freewill will be seen last after your acceptance of the grace is made.our will is dead,if your will does not die you have not accepted the grace,that simple.
this is the call of God the trumpet to the nations “the Gospel of Christ” any one who ear the voice and accept the grace will be saved ,but remember accepting the grace will kill your will,and God must be in control to allow you to become holy
if you hold back you will not progress,and so will die because you have not obeyed Gods rules,God is love and he is the one that love us first because he offer us the grace,but we have to accepted.
many scriptures relate this,and it is true ,
if any one does not know this and would like more info i be glad to help.
Pierre
Hi brother Pierre,
As I have mentioned in Pre-existence' thread the same truth holds good here. Please read my post with honesty you will find how our Bible contradict itself in framing doctrines for example of Free Will it is Oxymoron as our brother Gene repeatedly quotes in this thread. Yes you are right Bible supports certain degree of Free Will but the same Bible negates with that since God is the determiner of our fates. You can see this in my post above.Peace to you
Adam
Adamlike i say if what i have said in my reply ,is not true,
then by all means show it to me,please
one more thing;do not mix up the beginners in Christ and the so called saved ,and saints,
applied teachings could very for beginners like the first gentiles then later wen they mature this is a different talk.
remember no one jumps from being beginner (first lesson) to saint hood so there is a progress to maturity.
there is also a difference between Jews and gentiles,know that gentiles do not know God at all,were Jews were raised in and with the word of God,
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 27 2010,14:50) Pierre, The Spiritual interpretation of the mysticisms of Luke 9:62 is that no one puts his foot to the path being righteous as God is will voluntarily, as opposed to under compulsion, choose to sin. God tests the hearts of his people and those that abandon the faith by blaspheming the Spirit of Christ will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
You wrote:
Quote My understanding; the scriptures are the knowledge of God and Christ, but if you can apply yourself to write it on your heart, in your mind, and put it to practice with your strength, you will receive the spirit of Christ.
That sounds like you believe we receive the Spirit by works when it is by faith in God’s promise that those he created to hunger and thirst for righteousness will receive and walk by the spirit. Freely choose to believe that promise applies to you when you obey all of Jesus’ teaching and you will be one God created to love righteousness.
Kerwinit is not work or is it deeds,
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
Jas 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
IS THIS WORKS KERWIN
Lk 9:62 Jesus replied, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”
is this not what Paul talk about “if you have taste the goods of Christ “and now fall out there is no one that can save you
because you have rejected Christ the savior.Pierre
I see where you are coming from Gene.
Instead of believing that people can choose freely and are therefore responsible for what they believe, you prefer to believe that the greater influence will always win.
This explains why you repeatedly teach that Jesus Christ is a man who was created 2000 years ago instead of the Logos that was with God who was at God's side and who emptied himself and came in the flesh.
You think that people will sway your way if you are the greater influence and thus repetitive statements that Jesus was created 2000 years ago will sway us.However, you haven't swayed us because scripture is a greater influence than your teachings.
I don't really need to mention that we choose scripture over your teaching but that is what we do. We choose scripture.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 16 2010,02:24) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 15 2010,18:21) Is this topic still being debated. Gene. Your doctrine makes it silly to even argue against people who believe in free will because according to your doctrine, they are not freely choosing to do so. So do you believe your own doctrine? If so, why do you persist in trying to convince people to your way of thinking if you do not believe that they can freely choose to believe you or not?
You actions do not align with your teaching. Your actions contradict your teaching.
T8………..It all about exposure, you and i and all are effected by exposure to things . It has nothing to do with a Will that is FREE , it has to do with exposure attaching itself to us. Remember John saying (ALL) that is in the World , the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the Pride of Life (ARE FROM THE WORLD)> Why do you think it say “Train up a Child in the way he should god and when he is old he will not depart. Understand exposure causes us to think and act accordingly. There does not exist a Will the Is “FREE” like i have told you before your mixing up (LIBERTY) to excerpter our CAPTIVATED WILLS , with us Having a FREE WILL WORKING (IN) US. The term “free” will is and OXYMORON. Tere exists no such thing.And rather you see it or not this is a very,very, very, big Subject and your down playing of it only shows your lack of discernment about it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Good post brother Gene, as you rightly quoted all of us are victims of our back grounds and surroundings. Even the Bible says we can not choose God unless He gives that happen in any believer's life. If God is truely sovereign and has full control over His creation there can not exist true Free Will if at all there is one. I can agree with all of you here believing in certain amount of will to choose out of the influence we have in our lives. But I wonder whether that can be called as Free Will if God determines our fates as I told earlier.Please think over.
Love and peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,21:43) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 16 2010,02:24) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 15 2010,18:21) Is this topic still being debated. Gene. Your doctrine makes it silly to even argue against people who believe in free will because according to your doctrine, they are not freely choosing to do so. So do you believe your own doctrine? If so, why do you persist in trying to convince people to your way of thinking if you do not believe that they can freely choose to believe you or not?
You actions do not align with your teaching. Your actions contradict your teaching.
T8………..It all about exposure, you and i and all are effected by exposure to things . It has nothing to do with a Will that is FREE , it has to do with exposure attaching itself to us. Remember John saying (ALL) that is in the World , the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the Pride of Life (ARE FROM THE WORLD)> Why do you think it say “Train up a Child in the way he should god and when he is old he will not depart. Understand exposure causes us to think and act accordingly. There does not exist a Will the Is “FREE” like i have told you before your mixing up (LIBERTY) to excerpter our CAPTIVATED WILLS , with us Having a FREE WILL WORKING (IN) US. The term “free” will is and OXYMORON. Tere exists no such thing.And rather you see it or not this is a very,very, very, big Subject and your down playing of it only shows your lack of discernment about it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Good post brother Gene, as you rightly quoted all of us are victims of our back grounds and surroundings. Even the Bible says we can not choose God unless He gives that happen in any believer's life. If God is truely sovereign and has full control over His creation there can not exist true Free Will if at all there is one. I can agree with all of you here believing in certain amount of will to choose out of the influence we have in our lives. But I wonder whether that can be called as Free Will if God determines our fates as I told earlier.Please think over.
Love and peace to you
Adam
Adamyou are not true ,
if i can sin then i can also do not sin,and i can chose what will be my influence,
but it was you quote that has influence me and i have accepted that influence and so respond to it ,
do you understand me
Pierre
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 15 2010,20:53) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2010,19:14) Adam your story does not tell all ,and leaves many things out of context;like there are two pen,and are one,also Gods grace is open to all,and no one can be saved but by that grace;and that were i believe confusion starts,
God as supplied the sacrifice,his son,he as supplied the rules,
and the rules are ,to obey God and become holy because he is holy,now those things can not be done unless someone accept the grace rules,this is were your freewill will be seen last after your acceptance of the grace is made.our will is dead,if your will does not die you have not accepted the grace,that simple.
this is the call of God the trumpet to the nations “the Gospel of Christ” any one who ear the voice and accept the grace will be saved ,but remember accepting the grace will kill your will,and God must be in control to allow you to become holy
if you hold back you will not progress,and so will die because you have not obeyed Gods rules,God is love and he is the one that love us first because he offer us the grace,but we have to accepted.
many scriptures relate this,and it is true ,
if any one does not know this and would like more info i be glad to help.
Pierre
Hi brother Pierre,
As I have mentioned in Pre-existence' thread the same truth holds good here. Please read my post with honesty you will find how our Bible contradict itself in framing doctrines for example of Free Will it is Oxymoron as our brother Gene repeatedly quotes in this thread. Yes you are right Bible supports certain degree of Free Will but the same Bible negates with that since God is the determiner of our fates. You can see this in my post above.Peace to you
Adam
Hi Adam,Don't you believe you have a “Free Will”?
Everybody does! Did you lose yours somewhere?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 16 2010,02:11) Adam…………Interesting Pierre say your will must Die, but yet holds on to “FREE WILL” teachings and self choice salvation. We are indeed saved by Grace and that grace has nothing to do with our so-called “FREE” Wills at all, because there exists no such thing as a will that is “FREE” in the first place. IMO peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………………….gene
HI Gene,It is the 'ego' that must die; the “Free Will” lives on!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 16 2010,04:18) Irene………….IF you were God and wanted every one to be exactly like you are , you say God does not want Puppets, but GOD does want to live HIS LIFE LIVED IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL> So let GOD make me his Puppet then. And all “FREE” WILLER'S are FREE FROM GOD then, unless they by their own “FREE” WILLS come to DECIDE they will Accept GOD on “their term” of course, GOD forbid it should be against “their own” so-called “FREE WILL”> All who are of God see things as He see them by (HIS) Spirit (IN) them. Has nothing to do with any so-called “FREE WILL”. But INFLUENCED WILLS, WHICH OF COURSE YOU CALL BEING GODS PUPPET. That is the same attitude Adam and Eve recieved from the serpent , they did not want to obey God or be his puppet, they wanted to BE A GOD. IMO peace and love……………………………….gene
Hi Gene,If you are God's puppet, then why do use your “Free Will”
to express your ideas instead of God's ideas?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (terraricca @ Nov. 16 2010,15:17) you are not true , if i can sin then i can also do not sin,and i can chose what will be my influence,
but it was you quote that has influence me and i have accepted that influence and so respond to it ,
do you understand me
Pierre
Hi brother Pierre,
It's not so easy to say as in your words. We can not choose so freely as you think brother. Please read St Pual's agony on this so called free will in Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
If Paul was having so called Free Will to choose 'only good' he could have not uttered such helpless words. It is through the spirit of God believers can choose good apart from sin. Where is this Free Will brother? This is the fate of our Bible it claims both ways.
So what can you?
Peace to you
AdamThe will is free to choose because we are led by the Spirit and provoked by the flesh at the same time and we will choose one of them. It is us who choose and those who choose sin die and those who choose the Spirit shall live.
Now had God not set up a standard against the enemy, then we would be overtaken by sin. But God has made it possible for us to choose to do works of faith instead of sin. He made this possible and all we have to so is choose it. He made it so fair that he even said that when the enemy comes in like a flood I will pour out my Spirit.
So God makes it possible for us to choose righteousness over wickedness. The catch is that we are totally responsible for what we choose and do because we have a choice. If we didn't, then we couldn't in all fairness be responsible and by reason of that, accountable for our lives.
T8……….Then if YOU are the responsible Party , and it totally depend on you , then you must recieve the GLORY not GOD for you salvation, because it was achieved by your (OWN) So-Called “FREE” WILL, a Will apart from GOD WILL> you have cut yourself off from GOD good luck your going to need it.
But to all who trust in GOD and His WILL…….> “FOR IT IS GOD WHO (WORKS) (IN) YOU (BOTH) (two things)TO (WILL) AND (DO) OF (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE.
All who have died to themselves are most blessed because they seek not (THEIR (own)WILLS) they think is FREE but in FACT is CAPTIVATED , but the will of GOD by the renewing of their Minds. This is all brought about by GOD HIMSELF working in us , Mans Will has nothing to do with it, the term Free Will is only a product of the EGO and does not even exist, there is no such thing as a Will the is FREE and Will is alway the product of thought and if God is Producing those thoughts then you will chose the things of GOD, but neither has any thing to do with a “FREE” Will at all. The term “FREE WILL” is an OXYMORON, Not Will that is FREE EXISTS. T8 you still confusing GOD allowing Man liberty to exercise his (captivated will) as him having a “FREE” Will (IN) Him. Nothing can be further from the truth.
Rom 7:18………FOR I KNOW THAT (IN) ME “(that is in my flesh)< this was added to the text, "DWELLS (NO) GOOD THING; BECAUSE TO (WILL) IS PRESENT IN ME, BUT TO PERFORM THAT WHICH IS GOOD I FIND NOT".
Now Paul seems to think His “Will” is a hindrance and draws him into what is not good. He believe it is “NOT GOOD”. So T8 how can that which is not good every chose from itself, what is Good. T8 you seem to believe in Preexistence which separates Us from Jesus and you also believe in having a WILL that is “FREE”, that separated us from GOD. Neither view brother are right. IMO
By the way why don't you answer ADAMS Clear and Accurate POST. You just ignore what he presented and go on as if it meant nothing and yet it is direct scripture quotations as I have also posted. You seem to think that this subject of a WILL being FREE is not important and yet it is the very reason for the fall of man in the first place, it is what separated God from Man in the beginning.
peace and love to you and yours T8…………………………………………..gene
Adam………..Good post brother, your sound reasoning is needed here brother, your force us to all think and concentrate more on what we read in scriptures, Critical reading is good because it cause us to compare and draw a more accurate understanding. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Adam………………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 17 2010,01:24) T8……….Then if YOU are the responsible Party , and it totally depend on you , then you must recieve the GLORY not GOD for you salvation, because it was achieved by your (OWN) So-Called “FREE” WILL, a Will apart from GOD WILL> you have cut yourself off from GOD good luck your going to need it. But to all who trust in GOD and His WILL…….> “FOR IT IS GOD WHO (WORKS) (IN) YOU (BOTH) (two things)TO (WILL) AND (DO) OF (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE.
All who have died to themselves are most blessed because they seek not (THEIR (own)WILLS) they think is FREE but in FACT is CAPTIVATED , but the will of GOD by the renewing of their Minds. This is all brought about by GOD HIMSELF working in us , Mans Will has nothing to do with it, (1)the term Free Will is only a product of the EGO and does not even exist, there is no such thing as a Will the is FREE and Will is alway the product of thought and if God is Producing those thoughts then you will chose the things of GOD, but neither has any thing to do with a “FREE” Will at all. The term “FREE WILL” is an OXYMORON, Not Will that is FREE EXISTS. T8 you still confusing GOD allowing Man liberty to exercise his (captivated will) as him having a “FREE” Will (IN) Him. Nothing can be further from the truth.
Rom 7:18………FOR I KNOW THAT (IN) ME “(that is in my flesh)< this was added to the text, "DWELLS (NO) GOOD THING; BECAUSE TO (WILL) IS PRESENT IN ME, BUT TO PERFORM THAT WHICH IS GOOD I FIND NOT".
Now Paul seems to think His “Will” is a hindrance and draws him into what is not good. He believe it is “NOT GOOD”. So T8 how can that which is not good every chose from itself, what is Good. T8 you seem to believe in Preexistence which separates Us from Jesus and you also believe in having a WILL that is “FREE”, that separated us from GOD. Neither view brother are right. IMO
By the way (2)why don't you answer ADAMS Clear and Accurate POST. You just ignore what he presented and go on as if it meant nothing and yet it is direct scripture quotations as I have also posted. You seem to think that this subject of a WILL being FREE is not important and yet it is the very reason for the fall of man in the first place, it is what separated God from Man in the beginning.
peace and love to you and yours T8…………………………………………..gene
Hi Gene,1) “Free Will” is NOT the product of the 'ego';
“Free Will” is a gift from God! (James 1:17)2) Because Adam imported someone else's opinion.
If Adam were to transpose the ideas into his own,
then we could reason it over with him. (Isaiah 1:18)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 17 2010,01:29) Adam………..Good post brother, your sound reasoning is needed here brother, your force us to all think and concentrate more on what we read in scriptures, Critical reading is good because it cause us to compare and draw a more accurate understanding. IMO peace and love to you and yours Adam………………………………………………..gene
Thanks brother Gene, you are the one who see my posts appealing but others, they are repelled by them. What to do even brother Ed J closes his eyes towards my own opinions on Free Will which I quoted from Rom 7 to brother Pierre. Yes brother T8 is right in stating that we are responsible for our choices which we make based on our influences whether to choose good or sin. But he is ignoring the basic definition of Free Will which is free from any influence which I feel God alone may have because he is supreme and sovereign and free from any influence. I think you even doubt on this since God also acts out of the counsel of His own will.Thanks for your positive opinion on my critical out look on scriptures.
Love and peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Nov. 17 2010,17:00) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 17 2010,01:29) Adam………..Good post brother, your sound reasoning is needed here brother, your force us to all think and concentrate more on what we read in scriptures, Critical reading is good because it cause us to compare and draw a more accurate understanding. IMO peace and love to you and yours Adam………………………………………………..gene
Thanks brother Gene, you are the one who see my posts appealing but others, they are repelled by them. What to do even brother Ed J closes his eyes towards my own opinions on Free Will which I quoted from Rom 7 to brother Pierre. Yes brother T8 is right in stating that we are responsible for our choices which we make based on our influences whether to choose good or sin. But he is ignoring the basic definition of Free Will which is free from any influence which I feel God alone may have because he is supreme and sovereign and free from any influence. I think you even doubt on this since God also acts out of the counsel of His own will.Thanks for your positive opinion on my critical out look on scriptures.
Love and peace to you
Adam
Hi Adam,Was Gene not talking about the full page you imported?
What quotes?
I'm “Willing”, get it, to discuss “Free Will” with you!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi brother Ed J,
No challenges please I am not ready for such fight. I find all of you are OK in clarifying your own concepts on any Biblical doctrine. I quoted mine above. I find it most contradictory in the Bible “THERE IS FREE WILL AT THE SAME TIME NO FREE WILL” it is oxymoron as our brother Gene quotes here. That is the fate of my Holy Book. I gave some examples through my posts above whether I borrowed or given by myself. You may negate them. But I don't mind them as you are right in your own way.
But I bring out the truth here. The reason behind all Christian confusion.Thanks and peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Nov. 18 2010,00:27) Hi brother Ed J,
No challenges please I am not ready for such fight. I find all of you are OK in clarifying your own concepts on any Biblical doctrine. I quoted mine above. I find it most contradictory in the Bible “THERE IS FREE WILL AT THE SAME TIME NO FREE WILL” it is oxymoron as our brother Gene quotes here. That is the fate of my Holy Book. I gave some examples through my posts above whether I borrowed or given by myself. You may negate them. But I don't mind them as you are right in your own way.
But I bring out the truth here. The reason behind all Christian confusion.Thanks and peace to you
Adam
Hi Adam,I don't bother to read imported opinions!
You consider discussing yours 'a fight'?
Where exactly did you quote yours?
The reason you cannot reconcile it is because
“Free Will” is a biblical truth; it is a LIE to believe it isn't!
Our “Free Will” is NOT paradoxical, like many other Biblical concepts.
Is is a LIE to pre-suppose it is! You are “Free” to make all the decisions you “Will”!
Simple, is it not? Most imported 'opinions' are FALSE, and I'm sure the one you Posted is no exception!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 18 2010,09:58) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 18 2010,00:27) Hi brother Ed J,
No challenges please I am not ready for such fight. I find all of you are OK in clarifying your own concepts on any Biblical doctrine. I quoted mine above. I find it most contradictory in the Bible “THERE IS FREE WILL AT THE SAME TIME NO FREE WILL” it is oxymoron as our brother Gene quotes here. That is the fate of my Holy Book. I gave some examples through my posts above whether I borrowed or given by myself. You may negate them. But I don't mind them as you are right in your own way.
But I bring out the truth here. The reason behind all Christian confusion.Thanks and peace to you
Adam
Hi Adam,I don't bother to read imported opinions!
You consider discussing yours 'a fight'?
Where exactly did you quote yours?
The reason you cannot reconcile it is because
“Free Will” is a biblical truth; it is a LIE to believe it isn't!
Our “Free Will” is NOT paradoxical, like many other Biblical concepts.
Is is a LIE to pre-suppose it is! You are “Free” to make all the decisions you “Will”!
Simple, is it not? Most imported 'opinions' are FALSE, and I'm sure the one you Posted is no exception!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
That is a joke brother Ed J that you quoted above. You failed to read my posts and complain against me. I quote again Bible is contradictory in framing various doctrines like Free Will. Yes I already agreed that it talks about certain degree of Free Will but at the same time it negates as I gave examples in my post which I borrowed from a book. You can appreciate that.
I leave it you.
Sorry
Adam
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