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Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2010,01:20) Pierre, How do people choose what they choose? Do they not choose according to their desires, knowledge, intellect, and observation? These are all abilities which God created in us. Do you think we choose randomly instead? Those are the only two possibilities I see. So the desires of our souls are to either love sin, to love righteousness, or completely random. Have you got another option?
kerwinEze 2:8 But you, son of man, listen to what I say to you. Do not rebel like that rebellious house; open your mouth and eat what I give you.”
Eze 2:9 Then I looked, and I saw a hand stretched out to me. In it was a scroll,
Eze 2:10 which he unrolled before me. On both sides of it were written words of lament and mourning and woe.
Eze 3:1 And he said to me, “Son of man, eat what is before you, eat this scroll; then go and speak to the house of Israel.”Eze 5:7 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: You have been more unruly than the nations around you and have not followed my decrees or kept my laws. You have not even conformed to the standards of the nations around you.
Eze 5:11 Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your vile images and detestable practices, I myself will withdraw my favor; I will not look on you with pity or spare you.
Eze 7:1 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 7:2 “Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says to the land of Israel: The end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land.
Eze 7:3 The end is now upon you and I will unleash my anger against you. I will judge you according to your conduct and repay you for all your detestable practices.
Eze 7:4 I will not look on you with pity or spare you; I will surely repay you for your conduct and the detestable practices among you. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
Eze 7:5 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Disaster! An unheard-of disaster is coming.
Eze 7:6 The end has come! The end has come! It has roused itself against you. It has come!
Eze 7:7 Doom has come upon you—you who dwell in the land. The time has come, the day is near; there is panic, not joy, upon the mountains.
Eze 7:8 I am about to pour out my wrath on you and spend my anger against you; I will judge you according to your conduct and repay you for all your detestable practices.
Eze 7:9 I will not look on you with pity or spare you; I will repay you in accordance with your conduct and the detestable practices among you. Then you will know that it is I the LORD who strikes the blow.
Eze 7:10 “The day is here! It has come! Doom has burst forth, the rod has budded, arrogance has blossomed!
Eze 7:11 Violence has grown into a rod to punish wickedness; none of the people will be left, none of that crowd—no wealth, nothing of value.
Eze 7:12 The time has come, the day has arrived. Let not the buyer rejoice nor the seller grieve, for wrath is upon the whole crowd.
Eze 7:13 The seller will not recover the land he has sold as long as both of them live, for the vision concerning the whole crowd will not be reversed. Because of their sins, not one of them will preserve his life.
Eze 7:14 Though they blow the trumpet and get everything ready, no one will go into battle, for my wrath is upon the whole crowd.
Eze 7:15 “Outside is the sword, inside are plague and famine; those in the country will die by the sword, and those in the city will be devoured by famine and plague.
Eze 7:16 All who survive and escape will be in the mountains, moaning like doves of the valleys, each because of his sins.
Eze 7:17 Every hand will go limp, and every knee will become as weak as water.
Eze 7:18 They will put on sackcloth and be clothed with terror. Their faces will be covered with shame and their heads will be shaved.
Eze 7:19 They will throw their silver into the streets, and their gold will be an unclean thing. Their silver and gold will not be able to save them in the day of the LORD'S wrath. They will not satisfy their hunger or fill their stomachs with it, for it has made them stumble into sin.
Eze 7:20 They were proud of their beautiful jewelry and used it to make their detestable idols and vile images. Therefore I will turn these into an unclean thing for them.
Eze 7:21 I will hand it all over as plunder to foreigners and as loot to the wicked of the earth, and they will defile it.
Eze 7:22 I will turn my face away from them, and they will desecrate my treasured place; robbers will enter it and desecrate it.
Eze 7:23 “Prepare chains, because the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of violence.
Eze 7:24 I will bring the most wicked of the nations to take possession of their houses; I will put an end to the pride of the mighty, and their sanctuaries will be desecrated.
Eze 7:25 When terror comes, they will seek peace, but there will be none.
Eze 7:26 Calamity upon calamity will come, and rumor upon rumor. They will try to get a vision from the prophet; the teaching of the law by the priest will be lost, as will the counsel of the elders.
Eze 7:27 The king will mourn, the prince will be clothed with despair, and the hands of the people of the land will tremble. I will deal with them according to their conduct, and by their own standards I will judge them. Then they will know that I am the LORD.”Eze 14:13 “Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its men and their animals,
Eze 14:14 even if these three men—Noah, Daniel and Job—were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.
Eze 14:15 “Or if I send wild beasts through that country and they leave it childless and it becomes desolate so that no one can pass through it because of the beasts,
Eze 14:16 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate.
Eze 14:17 “Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, ‘Let the sword pass throughout the land,’ and I kill its men and their animals,
Eze 14:18 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved.
Eze 14:19 “Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath upon it through bloodshed, killing its men and their animals,
Eze 14:20 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness.
Eze 14:21 “For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals!
Eze 14:22 Yet there will be some survivors—sons and daughters who will be brought out of it. They will come to you, and when you see their conduct and their actions, you will be consoled regarding the disaster I have brought upon Jerusalem—every disaster I have brought upon it.
Eze 14:23 You will be consoled when you see their conduct and their actions, for you will know that I have done nothing in it without cause, declares the Sovereign LORD.”Eze 34:2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themse
lves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock?kerwin ,it is what we allow in our hearths that will start our way to wickedness or to God,
even before we reach adulthood,and that deep knowledge as reach our mind,our hearths are the beginning of our choices and so determined were and in what we will search for deep knowledge,,
this is why it takes to reach that age were you become mature enough to practice and walk into your choices you made,and so become responsible for it .
now at anytime you may change the course of your action until your sins or your righteousness become so strong that you really become what you really are,this would only end either you have become a son of God or of Satan,
this is not a quick process,
this is why Christ says' love your enemies' and do not judge.
Pierre
Pierre,
Are you stating that each human being is a blank slate and their environment is what determines the desires of their heart?
What do you understand about The Spirit writing God’s commands on the heart of believers?
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 26 2010,00:16) Pierre, Are you stating that each human being is a blank slate and their environment is what determines the desires of their heart?
What do you understand about The Spirit writing God’s commands on the heart of believers?
kerwinJn 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
Jn 16:9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
Jn 16:10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
Jn 16:11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemnedLk 9:62 Jesus replied, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”
you say;;What do you understand about The Spirit writing God’s commands on the heart of believers?
my understanding;the scriptures are the knowledge of God and Christ,but if you can apply yourself to write it on your hearth,in your mind,and put it to practice with your strength,
you will receive the spirit of Christ.the spirit being the understanding of what God really wants you to do.
you say;;Are you stating that each human being is a blank slate and their environment is what determines the desires of their heart?
one word YES;;revelation tells us that there are two resurrection only the ones in the first resurrection are blessed;all the others will resurrect in the second one and that is the resurrection of judgement according to there deeds ;
so it is what all men does in is live that makes him either a good or bad person,
it is our perception of thing and the reasons of our deeds that make us what we are,
a person may never have encountered the bible but by nature he does good and is kind ,and self control ,and has love for is neighbor ect, SO HE BE JUDGE ACCORDING TO IS DEEDS NOT ACCORDING TO THE LAW.Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 25 2010,18:34) my understanding;the scriptures are the knowledge of God and Christ,but if you can apply yourself to write it on your hearth,in your mind,and put it to practice with your strength,
you will receive the spirit of Christ.
Terricca…………There is you problem you trust in (YOURSELF) to attain by your falsely called “FREE WILL” EFFORTS.CHEW ON THIS FOR A WHILE OK AND MAYBE (IT) WILL SINK IN.
“UNLESS THE (LORD) BUILD THE HOUSE THE WEARY BUILDERS (like you) BUILD IN VAIN, UNLESS THE LORD IS THE CITIES SHIELD THE GUARD MAINTAIN A USELESS WATCH”.
“THE GENTILE WHO HAVE NOT THE LAW BUT DO THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THEM SHOW THE LAW WRITTEN ON THE HEART (BY) THE HAND OF GOD”.
“For (I) WILL TAKE OUT OF YOU THE HEART OF STONE AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH AND I WILL WRITE MY LAWS ON YOU INWARD PARTS AND YOU SHALL BE MY PEOPLE AND I WILL BE YOUR GOD.”
JESUS SAID “THE SON OF MAN CAN DO (NOTHING) OF HIMSELF BUT THE (FATHER) IN (ME) (HE) DOTH THE WORKS”.
But you and your FREE WILL Concepts get GOD out of the picture and force (YOURSELF) ahead of Him. Terriccia you are not OBEYING GOD you are (ALLOWING) GOD. So who is your GOD it is YOU right?
peace and love…………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 26 2010,10:44) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 25 2010,18:34) my understanding;the scriptures are the knowledge of God and Christ,but if you can apply yourself to write it on your hearth,in your mind,and put it to practice with your strength,
you will receive the spirit of Christ.
Terricca…………There is you problem you trust in (YOURSELF) to attain by your falsely called “FREE WILL” EFFORTS.CHEW ON THIS FOR A WHILE OK AND MAYBE (IT) WILL SINK IN.
“UNLESS THE (LORD) BUILD THE HOUSE THE WEARY BUILDERS (like you) BUILD IN VAIN, UNLESS THE LORD IS THE CITIES SHIELD THE GUARD MAINTAIN A USELESS WATCH”.
“THE GENTILE WHO HAVE NOT THE LAW BUT DO THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THEM SHOW THE LAW WRITTEN ON THE HEART (BY) THE HAND OF GOD”.
“For (I) WILL TAKE OUT OF YOU THE HEART OF STONE AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH AND I WILL WRITE MY LAWS ON YOU INWARD PARTS AND YOU SHALL BE MY PEOPLE AND I WILL BE YOUR GOD.”
JESUS SAID “THE SON OF MAN CAN DO (NOTHING) OF HIMSELF BUT THE (FATHER) IN (ME) (HE) DOTH THE WORKS”.
But you and your FREE WILL Concepts get GOD out of the picture and force (YOURSELF) ahead of Him. Terriccia you are not OBEYING GOD you are (ALLOWING) GOD. So who is your GOD it is YOU right?
peace and love…………………..gene
geneyou are nor seeing things right;
you say;
“UNLESS THE (LORD) BUILD THE HOUSE THE WEARY BUILDERS (like you) BUILD IN VAIN, UNLESS THE LORD IS THE CITIES SHIELD THE GUARD MAINTAIN A USELESS WATCH
————-
the scriptures are the knowledge of God and Christ,but if you can apply yourself to write it on your hearth,in your mind,and put it to practice with your strength,
you will receive the spirit of Christ.[/quote]you try to say not to follow the word of God???
I say to follow the will of God is like following the house plan of God.no???
you say;;
“THE GENTILE WHO HAVE NOT THE LAW BUT DO THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THEM SHOW THE LAW WRITTEN ON THE HEART (BY) THE HAND OF GOD”.
——————
i say to put the scriptures in your hearth .and you say this is not good ??no??
you say;;
But you and your FREE WILL Concepts get GOD out of the picture and force (YOURSELF) ahead of Him. Terriccia you are not OBEYING GOD you are (ALLOWING) GOD. So who is your GOD it is YOU right?i say;because i have made one single decision,to serve my God ,out of my freewill,and then for the rest of eternity serve him ,you judge me and call me a god,
but God does not want forced labor he want voluntary labor and worshipers.you comments are out of context.irrelevant.
Pierre
Terricca…………..I quoted scripture to you and you proceeded to change what they said to meet you views . that is typical of most self willed People. God back and reread what you wrote and you should be able to see who is in real control of your life is it GOD or YOU, Granting Him permission to which still leaves you in control of you life not GOD it appears.
peace and love…………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 26 2010,13:04) Terricca…………..I quoted scripture to you and you proceeded to change what they said to meet you views . that is typical of most self willed People. God back and reread what you wrote and you should be able to see who is in real control of your life is it GOD or YOU, Granting Him permission to which still leaves you in control of you life not GOD it appears. peace and love…………………………….gene
geneyour quote reflects your frustration in you misunderstanding scriptures
Pierre
terricca………….Frustration has nothing to do with it your lack of understanding does though, as i said go back and reread what YOU wrote.
peace and love……………………………gene
Pierre,
The Spiritual interpretation of the mysticisms of Luke 9:62 is that no one puts his foot to the path being righteous as God is will voluntarily, as opposed to under compulsion, choose to sin. God tests the hearts of his people and those that abandon the faith by blaspheming the Spirit of Christ will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
You wrote:
Quote My understanding; the scriptures are the knowledge of God and Christ, but if you can apply yourself to write it on your heart, in your mind, and put it to practice with your strength, you will receive the spirit of Christ.
That sounds like you believe we receive the Spirit by works when it is by faith in God’s promise that those he created to hunger and thirst for righteousness will receive and walk by the spirit. Freely choose to believe that promise applies to you when you obey all of Jesus’ teaching and you will be one God created to love righteousness.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 21 2010,21:02) Quote
God created the wicked as part of his toolkit to finish the creation of mankind.Except for this idea I would agree with your post above. I do not believe God plays any part as an author of evil, however I do believe He will allow evil to prosper for a time, even against the prayers of the righteous, for a greater good.
My opinion – Wm
Wm! I agree, God did not create evil. It was Lucifer who was a Angel of light, who was so beautiful, that He became vain and wanted to sit on God's Throne. Evil was not created by God, however God permits evil to test us. Just like He tested Job…..
I don't understand how some will think that God would create evil…. God is good and always has been good. It was Lucifer who rebelled and evil came about. If you take it that He created Lucifer, yes that is true….But to think then that God would create evil is not scriptural……Peace and Love IreneQuote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 21 2010,16:02) Quote
God created the wicked as part of his toolkit to finish the creation of mankind.Except for this idea I would agree with your post above. I do not believe God plays any part as an author of evil, however I do believe He will allow evil to prosper for a time, even against the prayers of the righteous, for a greater good.
My opinion – Wm
I believe God created individuals whose souls loved wickedness when God boasted how righteous his creation of man was. Satan then challenged the boast by declaring the righteous would fail if surrounded by examples who were wicked.I use the case of Job an a type that this belief is based on.
Free will or Election of God? (taken from a book)
The need of repentance for salvation, or of any other act on the part of the individual damned through Adam
seems to be entirely obviated by the explicit avowal of divine responsibility for unbelief — which
seems hard to believe of a good God:
“For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.” (Rom. 11: 32 )
But the assurance of gratuitous mercy to all, even unbelievers, is contradicted by the same
inspired dogmatist in the selfsame epistle; he imputes to God the wilful turning of human souls to
damnation, destroying their power of escape:
“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” (ROM.
9: 18 )The text last quoted contains the hint of what may be termed election to involuntary damnation,
which is the effect of God's “hardening” of a predamned soul which may desire to believe and be
saved. But the fatal doctrine, which is the total repudiation of “propitiation for the sins of the
whole world,” finds many more explicit assertions — as well as bald denials — in the inspired texts.
When Paul “turned to the Gentiles,” and the Gentiles were glad, and glorified, and apparently
were all zealous to accept the new faith, it is recorded:
“And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13: 48 )
This fatal phrase “ordained to eternal life,” limiting the possibility of belief, and hence of
salvation, to an unknowable select number of the gentiles, seems like the explosion of a sapper's
mine under hope in the promise of “whosoever will.” But hope is raised by the apostolic assurance:
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [Yahveh] shall be saved.” (Rom. 10: 13 )
This hope, however, is dashed by the counter-assurance of the same inspired author:
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, … having
predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good
pleasure of his will.” (Eph. 1: 4, 5 )
And the doctrine of free-will to choose to be saved — if not saved without choice, as damned
without choice — is denied by the stone on which the Church is founded:
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit.” (1
Peter 1: 2 )
These words of renewed hope greet us: “For when we were yet without strength, in due time
Christ died for the ungodly.” (Rom. 5: 6 )
But the hope is sadly jarred by these others of the same dogmatist:
“Because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit
and belief of the truth.” (2 Thess. 2: 13 )
The colloquy between the jailer of Philippi and his prisoners Paul and Silas raises again the hope
of salvation to all who will believe:
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt
be saved, and thy house.” (Acts 16: 30, 31 )
The jailer, however, would seem to have been “elect” and the reasonable hopes of other willing
believers seem rudely curtailed by the discouraging ipse dixit of the Master:
“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to
enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be
able.” (Luke 13: 23, 24 )
This seems strangely at variance with the inspired assurance, often repeated:
“Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [Yahveh] shall be saved.” (Romans 10: 13; Acts
2: 21 )
All hope of free choice of salvation is quite upset, and only those foreordained by Divine
Providence are given any chance to escape the wrath of God, by these other words of his Son:
“All that the Father [Yahveh] giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no
wise cast out.” (John 6: 37 )
The dismal doctrine of “election” to redemption from the curse and of salvation for those only
whom the Father Yahveh giveth to be saved (of the lost sheep of Israel only) is reaffirmed in the
very words of the Father of Life, as quoted by Paul:
“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of
God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. … For he saith to
Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will
have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that
sheweth mercy. … Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he
hardeneth.” (Rom. 9: 11, 15, 16, 18 )
The doom of election to salvation and damnation by Yahveh himself, regardless of human striving,
receives solemn confirmation in the record of the early operations of the plan:
“And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” (Acts 2: 47 )
Those who have never taken the pains to compare doctrinal texts must naturally shut up their
ears in curiosity at the discordant notes of the sacred texts of salvation. One doctrine is flatly
denied by the other; therefore, both alike are discredited, or at least inextricably confused. So that
no man can guess whether “salvation” was for the Jew Only; or to the Jew first and then, upon his
rejection of it, to the gentile, to keep the legacy of the “free gift” from failing entirely; or whether
Jew or gentile might be saved by believing and willingly seeking salvation; or whether only those
“elected” by Yahveh in heaven before the foundation of the world might ever attain to heaven.
And if only the “elect” are to be saved, and these willy-nilly, what is the use for anyone, who
cannot possibly know whether he is of the “elect” or not, to make any effort or worry at all about
salvation? His efforts are either quite unnecessary or wholly unavailing.To all……….”God (WORKS) in us (BOTH) to WILL, (and) do of His GOOD PLEASURE.” and again “Unless the Lord shall build the house the weary builders build in vain”. It is all a work of GOD from start to finish. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………………..gene
To All………..The myth of a “FREE” WILL is just that a myth, there exists no such thing as a Will the is “FREE”, only influenced Wills exist, Rather it is of the World or of GOD is the question. Which ever is greater in a person that is what the person will WILL to do and does it, what ever influences him the most. “FREE WILL” is an OXYMORON, because no will is Free of influences, in fact the influences make up the Will , that is what a will is. it is an influenced desire. The question is what kind of influence is working (IN) a person, is it a Carnal or Spiritual one or both? IMO
peace and love to you all………………………..gene
Is this topic still being debated.
Gene. Your doctrine makes it silly to even argue against people who believe in free will because according to your doctrine, they are not freely choosing to do so. So do you believe your own doctrine? If so, why do you persist in trying to convince people to your way of thinking if you do not believe that they can freely choose to believe you or not?
You actions do not align with your teaching. Your actions contradict your teaching.
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 11 2010,02:54) Free will or Election of God? (taken from a book) The need of repentance for salvation, or of any other act on the part of the individual damned through Adam
seems to be entirely obviated by the explicit avowal of divine responsibility for unbelief — which
seems hard to believe of a good God:
“For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.” (Rom. 11: 32 )
But the assurance of gratuitous mercy to all, even unbelievers, is contradicted by the same
inspired dogmatist in the selfsame epistle; he imputes to God the wilful turning of human souls to
damnation, destroying their power of escape:
“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” (ROM.
9: 18 )The text last quoted contains the hint of what may be termed election to involuntary damnation,
which is the effect of God's “hardening” of a predamned soul which may desire to believe and be
saved. But the fatal doctrine, which is the total repudiation of “propitiation for the sins of the
whole world,” finds many more explicit assertions — as well as bald denials — in the inspired texts.
When Paul “turned to the Gentiles,” and the Gentiles were glad, and glorified, and apparently
were all zealous to accept the new faith, it is recorded:
“And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13: 48 )
This fatal phrase “ordained to eternal life,” limiting the possibility of belief, and hence of
salvation, to an unknowable select number of the gentiles, seems like the explosion of a sapper's
mine under hope in the promise of “whosoever will.” But hope is raised by the apostolic assurance:
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [Yahveh] shall be saved.” (Rom. 10: 13 )
This hope, however, is dashed by the counter-assurance of the same inspired author:
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, … having
predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good
pleasure of his will.” (Eph. 1: 4, 5 )
And the doctrine of free-will to choose to be saved — if not saved without choice, as damned
without choice — is denied by the stone on which the Church is founded:
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit.” (1
Peter 1: 2 )
These words of renewed hope greet us: “For when we were yet without strength, in due time
Christ died for the ungodly.” (Rom. 5: 6 )
But the hope is sadly jarred by these others of the same dogmatist:
“Because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit
and belief of the truth.” (2 Thess. 2: 13 )
The colloquy between the jailer of Philippi and his prisoners Paul and Silas raises again the hope
of salvation to all who will believe:
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt
be saved, and thy house.” (Acts 16: 30, 31 )
The jailer, however, would seem to have been “elect” and the reasonable hopes of other willing
believers seem rudely curtailed by the discouraging ipse dixit of the Master:
“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to
enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be
able.” (Luke 13: 23, 24 )
This seems strangely at variance with the inspired assurance, often repeated:
“Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [Yahveh] shall be saved.” (Romans 10: 13; Acts
2: 21 )
All hope of free choice of salvation is quite upset, and only those foreordained by Divine
Providence are given any chance to escape the wrath of God, by these other words of his Son:
“All that the Father [Yahveh] giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no
wise cast out.” (John 6: 37 )
The dismal doctrine of “election” to redemption from the curse and of salvation for those only
whom the Father Yahveh giveth to be saved (of the lost sheep of Israel only) is reaffirmed in the
very words of the Father of Life, as quoted by Paul:
“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of
God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. … For he saith to
Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will
have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that
sheweth mercy. … Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he
hardeneth.” (Rom. 9: 11, 15, 16, 18 )
The doom of election to salvation and damnation by Yahveh himself, regardless of human striving,
receives solemn confirmation in the record of the early operations of the plan:
“And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” (Acts 2: 47 )
Those who have never taken the pains to compare doctrinal texts must naturally shut up their
ears in curiosity at the discordant notes of the sacred texts of salvation. One doctrine is flatly
denied by the other; therefore, both alike are discredited, or at least inextricably confused. So that
no man can guess whether “salvation” was for the Jew Only; or to the Jew first and then, upon his
rejection of it, to the gentile, to keep the legacy of the “free gift” from failing entirely; or whether
Jew or gentile might be saved by believing and willingly seeking salvation; or whether only those
“elected” by Yahveh in heaven before the foundation of the world might ever attain to heaven.
And if only the “elect” are to be saved, and these willy-nilly, what is the use for anyone, who
cannot possibly know whether he is of the “elect” or not, to make any effort or worry at all about
salvation? His efforts are either quite unnecessary or wholly unavailing.
Adamyour story does not tell all ,and leaves many things out of context;like there are two pen,and are one,also Gods grace is open to all,and no one can be saved but by that grace;and that were i believe confusion starts,
God as supplied the sacrifice,his son,he as supplied the rules,
and the rules are ,to obey God and become holy because he is holy,now those things can not be done unless someone accept the grace rules,this is were your freewill will be seen last after your acceptance of the grace is made.our will is dead,if your will does not die you have not accepted the grace,that simple.
this is the call of God the trumpet to the nations “the Gospel of Christ” any one who ear the voice and accept the grace will be saved ,but remember accepting the grace will kill your will,and God must be in control to allow you to become holy
if you hold back you will not progress,and so will die because you have not obeyed Gods rules,God is love and he is the one that love us first because he offer us the grace,but we have to accepted.
many scriptures relate this,and it is true ,
if any one does not know this and would like more info i be glad to help.
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 27 2010,16:45) Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 21 2010,16:02) Quote
God created the wicked as part of his toolkit to finish the creation of mankind.Except for this idea I would agree with your post above. I do not believe God plays any part as an author of evil, however I do believe He will allow evil to prosper for a time, even against the prayers of the righteous, for a greater good.
My opinion – Wm
I believe God created individuals whose souls loved wickedness when God boasted how righteous his creation of man was. Satan then challenged the boast by declaring the righteous would fail if surrounded by examples who were wicked.I use the case of Job an a type that this belief is based on.
Kerwinyou need more study ,this is not true ,it is your personal opinion not scriptures
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2010,19:14) Adam your story does not tell all ,and leaves many things out of context;like there are two pen,and are one,also Gods grace is open to all,and no one can be saved but by that grace;and that were i believe confusion starts,
God as supplied the sacrifice,his son,he as supplied the rules,
and the rules are ,to obey God and become holy because he is holy,now those things can not be done unless someone accept the grace rules,this is were your freewill will be seen last after your acceptance of the grace is made.our will is dead,if your will does not die you have not accepted the grace,that simple.
this is the call of God the trumpet to the nations “the Gospel of Christ” any one who ear the voice and accept the grace will be saved ,but remember accepting the grace will kill your will,and God must be in control to allow you to become holy
if you hold back you will not progress,and so will die because you have not obeyed Gods rules,God is love and he is the one that love us first because he offer us the grace,but we have to accepted.
many scriptures relate this,and it is true ,
if any one does not know this and would like more info i be glad to help.
Pierre
Hi brother Pierre,
As I have mentioned in Pre-existence' thread the same truth holds good here. Please read my post with honesty you will find how our Bible contradict itself in framing doctrines for example of Free Will it is Oxymoron as our brother Gene repeatedly quotes in this thread. Yes you are right Bible supports certain degree of Free Will but the same Bible negates with that since God is the determiner of our fates. You can see this in my post above.Peace to you
AdamAdam…………Interesting Pierre say your will must Die, but yet holds on to “FREE WILL” teachings and self choice salvation. We are indeed saved by Grace and that grace has nothing to do with our so-called “FREE” Wills at all, because there exists no such thing as a will that is “FREE” in the first place. IMO
peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………………….gene
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 15 2010,18:21) Is this topic still being debated. Gene. Your doctrine makes it silly to even argue against people who believe in free will because according to your doctrine, they are not freely choosing to do so. So do you believe your own doctrine? If so, why do you persist in trying to convince people to your way of thinking if you do not believe that they can freely choose to believe you or not?
You actions do not align with your teaching. Your actions contradict your teaching.
T8………..It all about exposure, you and i and all are effected by exposure to things . It has nothing to do with a Will that is FREE , it has to do with exposure attaching itself to us. Remember John saying (ALL) that is in the World , the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the Pride of Life (ARE FROM THE WORLD)> Why do you think it say “Train up a Child in the way he should god and when he is old he will not depart. Understand exposure causes us to think and act accordingly. There does not exist a Will the Is “FREE” like i have told you before your mixing up (LIBERTY) to excerpter our CAPTIVATED WILLS , with us Having a FREE WILL WORKING (IN) US. The term “free” will is and OXYMORON. Tere exists no such thing.And rather you see it or not this is a very,very, very, big Subject and your down playing of it only shows your lack of discernment about it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
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