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Pierre,
God did create Satan as an angel of light but Satan rebelled against God because he loved evil.
God did not create sin because he cannot rebel against his own self.
Quote
God created the wicked as part of his toolkit to finish the creation of mankind.Except for this idea I would agree with your post above. I do not believe God plays any part as an author of evil, however I do believe He will allow evil to prosper for a time, even against the prayers of the righteous, for a greater good.
My opinion – Wm
Kerwin………Good or Evil was created by GOD they always existed since Life existed, Perhaps that is better to understand what i am saying, it is like saying was up or down not created , or right and left not created. Life consisted of all these things they are as much part of what life is as anything can be. These opposites give Balance to things in existence, life has to have these things in it or it just would not be life without them. Question is which one are we doing and if we are why are we doing them. You could not even know what good or evil was if you never had experience with them, as Adam and Eve was (before) they experienced them for themselves. Did not GOD plainly say “The man has become as we are (KNOWING) Good and Evil. Notice GOD said “AS WE ARE”> Good and Evil are need to give us understanding and from the understand we get the wisdom we need in our choices we make. But (WE) did not bring into existence those choices as form ourselves they alway existed before there was ever a creation on earth.
That was my point Kerwin Good and Evil brings balance to what Life is. Is it a good life or and evil life we live?, one brings happiness and Joy the other brings sorrow and pain and suffering. But understanding both of them Brings wisdom and does make one wise. Notice it say when Eve saw ” that the tree (that which produces from self) was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes and a tree to be desires to make one (WISE), she tool of the fruit therefor and did eat (take to her self)”. And notice after that there eyes were opened after that and they Knew that they were naked ….>. The problem is they should has listened to GOD, but i believe GOD know all along they would do what they did do. I really don't think He was surprised by what they did in fact it might have been in the Plan of GOD all along.
But what kind of Father would he have been if he did not warn his childern about the danger associated with that (influenced) Choice they would make. God acting as a loving Father warned them of that Choice associated with them experience good and evil and what would come about as a result of that choice. Man kind has suffered greatly as a result of that. IMO
peace and love …………………………..gene
Kerwin………..Here is just a example of something i getting at, Have you ever though about this before. We get depth perception from two sources the right eye and the left eye these two opposites give us depth perceptions , even our hearing has to be balanced between to sound points the right and left ear and that gives understanding of the distance the sound is coming from. It is these balances of these opposites that give us the real depth and distance of things, I believe Good and Evil work the same way through experiencing them it is needful to give us wisdom and understanding that GOD HIMSELF Has. So we can come to see as He see things. God the Father would not have subject His creation to this if it were not needful. IMO
peace and love…………………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 22 2010,03:01) Pierre, God did create Satan as an angel of light but Satan rebelled against God because he loved evil.
God did not create sin because he cannot rebel against his own self.
kerwindo you understand what you are saying???
God did not create Satan he created the being who later rebel
against God,in is free will of actionthere is a difference,if you see it or not ??
Satan =rebel,adversary
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 22 2010,09:44) Kerwin………..Here is just a example of something i getting at, Have you ever though about this before. We get depth perception from two sources the right eye and the left eye these two opposites give us depth perceptions , even our hearing has to be balanced between to sound points the right and left ear and that gives understanding of the distance the sound is coming from. It is these balances of these opposites that give us the real depth and distance of things, I believe Good and Evil work the same way through experiencing them it is needful to give us wisdom and understanding that GOD HIMSELF Has. So we can come to see as He see things. God the Father would not have subject His creation to this if it were not needful. IMO peace and love…………………………….gene
genethis is another of your misguided logic.
first it is the most important to know that both your eyes are needed to see clearly and focus on the things you want to see,
it is the same with the ears you need both to beable to know and identify from were the sound is coming from
those are true uses of the gifts of God ,
your logic does not come from God,
Pierre
Gene,
There is no balance between good and evil as evil will be vanquished someday. Although I agree with the fact that the sin that exists, is used to teach us the long term effects of evil and why it must be vanquished.My opinion ~ wm
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 21 2010,17:17) Pierre, The passage from Isaiah 45:7 uses the word “evil” as the name of disastrous vents such as earthquakes, tornadoes, floods, and the like. God obvious did not create evil desires as they are rebellion against him. He does suffer their existence and thus may be said to create their results. He does all these in his striving to shape men into the image of His Son, even in those cases he knows he will fail, he does that so none can claim they not given a just and fair opportunity.
God did create Satan upright and Satan rebelled. God created Satan with a soul that loved sin but a Spirit that was completely holy. Satan freely chose to give into the desires of his soul and so blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. God foreknew that Satan would freely choose the path of wickedness and God used that knowledge as part of his plan. In fact God would not have created Satan had Satan’s free choices endangered his plan in any way.
God did the same with man. Some men have a soul that loves righteousness and others have a soul that loves wickedness. Originally mankind was also given a righteous spirit but man in the form of Adam and Eve freely chose to disobey God and so demonstrated that the creation of mankind was not complete. God created the wicked as part of his toolkit to finish the creation of mankind. I believe he did this because Satan requested it after God boasted about mankind; similar to case involving Job. When Jesus taught the parable of the wheat and the tares he stated Satan planted bad seed in the field. Those that love sin are the bad seed while the good seed are those that love righteousness.
Some call this a stacked deck or predetermination and perhaps it is. All I know is that God created us to freely make choices according to our own desires, beliefs, knowledge, and intellect. I do not see it as unjust that God created us and so created the abilities and desires that lead us to choose what we choose. I also know God wants everyone to be saved and so he reluctantly created those who would not be only because they were needed in the refinery process of those that would be.
Evidence is that Jesus was given the authority to know the desires of an individual’s soul but from what I know he is the only human so gifted by the Holy Spirit.
This is my beliefs, which are at odds with Gene’s. You seem to think they are the same if I correctly understand what you posted.
kerwinyou use men logic .and so your conclusions are wrong;you say;;God did create Satan upright and Satan rebelled. God created Satan with a soul that loved sin but a Spirit that was completely holy.
Satan is a name given to that being after he rebelled,
he was not created with a soul that loved sin,he was created perfect like everyone else ,but he start to see things in his hearth with ego ,it was of is own making,God as nothing to do with it ,freewill
you say;;
similar to case involving Job. When Jesus taught the parable of the wheat and the tares he stated Satan planted bad seed in the field. Those that love sin are the bad seed while the good seed are those that love righteousness.
i say;
there again you are wrong;if there was a personal name on every sinner you would be right ,but Christ only identifies a class of doers,you say;
I do not see it as unjust that God created us and so created the abilities and desires that lead us to choose what we choose. I also know God wants everyone to be saved and so he reluctantly created those who would not be only because they were needed in the refinery process of those that would be.i say;
you are totaly wrong ,God created all good with the ability to choose ,and to make sure we have a choice God give us knowledge of good and evil,and advise us to pick good so we may live.the sinners did not apply them selves to do what it right in the eyes of God,and so are now condemned,they also received freewill just as all others who chose righteousness.
they have been separated by there own choice,Pierre
Pierre,
Romans 9:21(NIV) reads:
Quote Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Do you believe this scripture is true?
Do you believe that Paul is using a Potter to symbolize God?
I do because he carries on with the argument in the next verse.
Romans 9:21(NIV) reads:
Quote ’ What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
Who then are the objects of God’s wrath, the common vessels?
Does not the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares tell us?
Matthew 13:38-39(NIV) reads:
Quote The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
Is it not obvious that the common vessels doomed to destruction are the weeds that sprung from the evil seed? Satan is obvious is the father of such seed and so like his children began as a evil seed.
So it is obvious that God created both the evil seed and the good seed and the latter he created for destruction on that day.
The reason Paul gives is:
Romans 9:22-23(NIV) reads:
Quote What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
The question is can you believe what scripture teaches on this subject. If you have another take on these scriptures then please air it. Thank you.
Remember I also believe the people's choice is based in themselves. I am only addressing their creation.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2010,12:39) I think everyone here is partially correct. 
Ed put it very well: “Influence on our will does NOT make it cease to be free to choose!”
There are many factors and influences that we bear in mind when deciding something. So while our wills are under the influence of what God wants from us versus what the world deems acceptable behavior – along with many other factors that weigh in – the bottom line is that we are 100% FREE to choose which path we will take.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding Gene. I'm reading him to say that God partially “CONTROLS” our decision making process – and I believe that to be false. God doesn't want robots, or even partial robots. He wants His children to learn right from wrong, and after doing so, to exercise the FREE WILLS He gave us to choose the right path. IMO
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,Thanks;
and well put!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2010,00:20) Pierre, Romans 9:21(NIV) reads:
Quote Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Do you believe this scripture is true?
Do you believe that Paul is using a Potter to symbolize God?
I do because he carries on with the argument in the next verse.
Romans 9:21(NIV) reads:
Quote ’ What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
Who then are the objects of God’s wrath, the common vessels?
Does not the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares tell us?
Matthew 13:38-39(NIV) reads:
Quote The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
Is it not obvious that the common vessels doomed to destruction are the weeds that sprung from the evil seed? Satan is obvious is the father of such seed and so like his children began as a evil seed.
So it is obvious that God created both the evil seed and the good seed and the latter he created for destruction on that day.
The reason Paul gives is:
Romans 9:22-23(NIV) reads:
Quote What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
The question is can you believe what scripture teaches on this subject. If you have another take on these scriptures then please air it. Thank you.
Remember I also believe the people's choice is based in themselves. I am only addressing their creation.
Kerwinyou still with your man made logic,
yes the potter is refer(image) to God ,but again the choice of being a pot for good use is in the hands of the choosers ,
it is the same of a criminal who kills by accident and one because he like to kill,one as an escape road the other as none.
Jas 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
Jas 4:5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely?
Jas 4:6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
“God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble.”
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.God is Holy and evil can not be found in him and in anyone near him.
Pierre
Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 22 2010,05:46) Gene,
There is no balance between good and evil as evil will be vanquished someday. Although I agree with the fact that the sin that exists, is used to teach us the long term effects of evil and why it must be vanquished.My opinion ~ wm
WM………I never said there was a Balance between good and evil, what i said is those two forces give us the balance of knowing what is good and what is evil, they you might say give us the Understanding of right and wrong, and this perception becomes wisdom to us just as it is to GOD. “LOOK THE MAN HAS BECOME LIKE US , TO KNOW (to become aware of by experiencing) GOOD AND EVIL. Good and evil are needed to teach us to see as God sees thing if not he would have never allowed it in the first place. We are all being taught by these things, to love the good and hate the evil. IMOWM…………here is an example of what i am talking about, the time will come when evil will be vanquished from the earth in the thousand year reign of Jesus and the Saints, even the nature of Lions and snakes will be changed it says a child shall lead the lion and play in a adders nest and they will not harm him. The people will be taught all of God laws and keep them perfectly all the world will be at peace. Only good will exist at that time evil will not exist on the Earth. But what happens when evil is again released on the earth all except Jesus and the Saints rebel against GOD, and attack them and fire comes down out of heaven and devours them. You see these people never experiences any evil and did not understand the difference by seeing it played out in their lives and when evil appeared they simply fell away from the good and went after the evil. They had no real understand of the effects of evil having never experienced it.
God is proving a huge point in all of this , and that point is that men would turn to evil no matter how long it did not exist once it appeared, But also notice the Saints and Jesus did not turn to the evil (WHY)? . GOD must himself (Keep) (maintain) us and sustain us for ever. Remember it says it is (NOT) (within) a Man to direct his steps. That guidance system must be install and maintained by GOD Himself. Therefore it says, “THE LORD BLESS YOU AND (KEEP) YOU, THE LORD (MAKE) HIS FACE TO SHINE ON YOU, AND BE (GRACIOUS) UNTO YOU, THE LORD LIFT UP HIS COUNTENANCE UPON YOU AND (GIVE) YOU PEACE. Amen
peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 22 2010,04:14) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 22 2010,09:44) Kerwin………..Here is just a example of something i getting at, Have you ever though about this before. We get depth perception from two sources the right eye and the left eye these two opposites give us depth perceptions , even our hearing has to be balanced between to sound points the right and left ear and that gives understanding of the distance the sound is coming from. It is these balances of these opposites that give us the real depth and distance of things, I believe Good and Evil work the same way through experiencing them it is needful to give us wisdom and understanding that GOD HIMSELF Has. So we can come to see as He see things. God the Father would not have subject His creation to this if it were not needful. IMO peace and love…………………………….gene
genethis is another of your misguided logic.
first it is the most important to know that both your eyes are needed to see clearly and focus on the things you want to see,
it is the same with the ears you need both to beable to know and identify from were the sound is coming from
those are true uses of the gifts of God ,
your logic does not come from God,
Pierre
Terricca…………You have no idea what you are saying, You can have one eye as see or on ear and Hear , the only thing is you lose you depth perceptions by not having both. In you ignorance you completely miss the points being talked about. You so intent on trying to discredit me and other it blinds you from any intelligent discussion. Any forth grade would know that , you still are just running you mouth off and not understanding what you are saying in my and others opinions.gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 23 2010,07:26) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 22 2010,04:14) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 22 2010,09:44) Kerwin………..Here is just a example of something i getting at, Have you ever though about this before. We get depth perception from two sources the right eye and the left eye these two opposites give us depth perceptions , even our hearing has to be balanced between to sound points the right and left ear and that gives understanding of the distance the sound is coming from. It is these balances of these opposites that give us the real depth and distance of things, I believe Good and Evil work the same way through experiencing them it is needful to give us wisdom and understanding that GOD HIMSELF Has. So we can come to see as He see things. God the Father would not have subject His creation to this if it were not needful. IMO peace and love…………………………….gene
genethis is another of your misguided logic.
first it is the most important to know that both your eyes are needed to see clearly and focus on the things you want to see,
it is the same with the ears you need both to beable to know and identify from were the sound is coming from
those are true uses of the gifts of God ,
your logic does not come from God,
Pierre
Terricca…………You have no idea what you are saying, You can have one eye as see or on ear and Hear , the only thing is you lose you depth perceptions by not having both. In you ignorance you completely miss the points being talked about. You so intent on trying to discredit me and other it blinds you from any intelligent discussion. Any forth grade would know that , you still are just running you mouth off and not understanding what you are saying in my and others opinions.gene
genemy answer to you was allegorically put,
i guess you did not understand it
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 23 2010,17:13) Terricca…………..Nor does anyone else but you> IMO peace and love………………………………….gene
genei do believe you never take in consideration you own quotes
this will prevent you not to understand most of all the comments
Pierre
Terricca…………Right we should all listen to you then right? , because your logic works right? You are a Joke at best , you think your logic is of GOD and His word But it is your own SELF WILL or “your “FREE WILL” Logic recieved by Blind teachings of your past IMO. Much like JA and His JA alter EGO thinking that his JA is the SPIRIT of GOD talking to HIM, no matter how illogical it is or even if there is not Scripture to support his views.
gene
Gene and Pierre,
It sounds like you two are in a game of tit for tat. Try not to blame the person unless you indent to elevate them by pointing out faults you perceive. Always seek to be biased by the righteousness of God and not the principles of this world when discussing the things of God or at any other time.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2010,01:51) Gene and Pierre, It sounds like you two are in a game of tit for tat. Try not to blame the person unless you indent to elevate them by pointing out faults you perceive. Always seek to be biased by the righteousness of God and not the principles of this world when discussing the things of God or at any other time.
kerwinyou playing wise man now??
you have your own doctrines ,anyone who does not stick to the truth of Gods words,is a liar,don't you read scriptures
wen you break one of the commandment you broke all of them,NO???
Christ has been preach since Abraham,why are you only see one verse for your on doctrine.??
Pierre
Pierre,
How do people choose what they choose? Do they not choose according to their desires, knowledge, intellect, and observation? These are all abilities which God created in us. Do you think we choose randomly instead? Those are the only two possibilities I see. So the desires of our souls are to either love sin, to love righteousness, or completely random. Have you got another option?
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