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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 09 2008,16:12) 942767………..the words (FREE WILL) is no where in the entire bible. All scientist Know there is no such thing as (Free Will) every thing is the result of cause and effect. Stop and think about it there is nothing you can think of that the effect was not caused. The dictionary says the free will is a will that choses some thing without (ANY CAUSE) either by past experience or association of any kind You see it would have to be that way in order to be truly (FREE). But every thing we choose was already in out minds before we acted on it and so that was the cause for our action which produced an effect. This is a very important subject that most do not understand , If you have time do some research on the subject of Free will s, the first to discovery it was Socrates around 500 BC and has never been disproved even to this day. It is a major error i believe in church teaching. If you get time check it out it will open up a lot of scriptures to you. peace to you…….gene
Hi Gene:You say that the words “free will” are not in the bible, and I know that it is not, but the concept is. Do you know the definition of free will?
You also use the sovereignty of God. Is the word sovereign or sovereignty in the bible?
God does not force anyone to obey Him.
Did Adam and Eve have a choice in the Garden of Eden?
How about Joshua in the following scripture? Did he indicate that the people had a choice. Did he have a choice?
“Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
I also, like Joshua say by my free will, “as for me and my house we will serve the Lord”.
God Bless
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2008,02:33) Jesus did not put his confidence in His own WILL at all, but only in GOD”S WILL.
This is a curious statement to me because I remember that Jesus prayed 3 times for the Father to let the cup pass from him. Perhaps he prayed, “Father, is there any other way?”. If so, was Jesus putting a tad bit of confidence in his own will. That is, his ability to reason with the Father and possibly change his mind as Moses did? Hmmmm, I don't know?Quote (gollamudi @ June 09 2008,22:42) Hi 942767,
They did not believe Jesus, they used their so called free will and lost part in the kingdom of God (Jn 6:64-65). Show me one person who used his free will without any influence whatsoever and was successful in the Bible.
Peace to you
Adam
Hi Adam:Yes, they walked away and lost out on the kingdom of God, they made a decision to walk away even after they had seen all of the miracles that Jesus did instead of asking him what he meant by “eating his flesh and drinking his blood”. They exercised their “free will” and made that choice. This is all I am saying. Did Jesus drag them and make them obey?
I have already stated that our faith is a gift from God, but just like these disciples that walked away I can choose to do likewise, but I choose to obey God because I appreciate what He has done for me through our Lord Jesus.
God Bless
Mandy….God has given each of us a Will which drives our desires for life, Jesus had His own to just like Us. You can see His human nature at work, Jesus earlier said He was going to die and be raised several time and it did not seam to bother Him that much, but when it came down to it , it was a whole different reality.
Don't think I am putting Jesus Down because I would react the same way. It a lot easer to talk about something like that then to actually do it. I saw a actual movie of a man getting the electric chair once, they were talking to Him the day before and big brave words he was speaking, but when the time can, you would never have thought it was the same man.
He couldn't even hardly walk and was trembling like a leaf. There is Just something about us that hides reality some times until we are at the very point, I see Jesus' humanity in him, wanting out of it if possible and I empathize with him. it was truly a hard thing to do.
Wonderful my brother 942767,
If you are able to choose to obey God without any influence then you are really using your free will. If not I differ with you on free will. I only believe I don't have even abillty to obey God because my flesh nature can not obey God's commandments. “There is nothing that good lies in me” I always praise God who gives me grace to obey His will not that I can freely choose myself. I am always influenced by His Spirit which abides in me to obey His(God's) will I don't find any free will in this.
Thanks
AdamQuote (joejoe @ Nov. 25 2003,05:38) GOD CHOOSES MAN, MAN DOES NOT CHOOSE GOD Do you deny the total depravity of man, and hold that the will of man is free and has the ability to choose Christ and the salvation that is in Him? Such teaching is false and delusive since the Scriptures represent election as occurring in the past, irrespective of personal merit.
'The children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated' (Romans 9: 11-13).
The unregenerate person has no free will of spiritual matters. This means they can do nothing pertaining to their salvation. This is because of the Fall. God told Adam, if you eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt surely die. Obviously, Adam didn't die as we think of people dying today because Adam went on to live for hundreds of years. Adam died a spiritual death. But through his fall he brought spiritual death upon himself and all his posterity. He thereby plunged himself and the entire race into spiritual ruin and lost for himself and his descendants the ability to make right choices in the spiritual realm. His descendants are still free to choose – every man makes choices throughout life – but inasmuch as Adam's offspring are born with sinful natures, they do not have the ability to choose spiritual good over evil. Consequently, man's will is no longer free from the dominion of sin as Adam's will was free before the fall. Instead, man's will, as a result of inherited depravity, is in bondage to his sinful nature.
It is quite evident that many unsaved people, when judged by man's standards, do possess admirable qualities and do perform virtuous acts. But in the spiritual realm, when judged by God's standards, the unsaved sinner is incapable of good. The natural man is enslaved to sin; he is a child of Satan, rebellious toward God, blind to truth, corrupt, and unable to save himself or to prepare himself for salvation. In short, the unregenerate man is dead in sin, and his will is enslaved to his evil nature. The will of man is free only to choose according to his moral nature, and as his nature is under the dominion of sin, man chooses accordingly.
'The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (I Cor. 2: 14).
'No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day' (John 6: 44).
'Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father. From that time many of His disciples went back and walked no more with Him' (John 6: 65, 66).
'All who are born again are said to be 'born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God' (John 1: 13).
The sovereignty of God's choice comes out clearly in the statement that Christ died for His people while they were yet sinners (Romans 5: 8). Therefore do not take the choice out of the hands of God and place it in your own hands.
I've been trying to follow along with you all.I started by reading the first post of this thread. It's quite good and directly to the point. I thought I would bump it if anyone was interested.
Quote (gollamudi @ June 10 2008,10:43) Wonderful my brother 942767,
If you are able to choose to obey God without any influence then you are really using your free will. If not I differ with you on free will. I only believe I don't have even abillty to obey God because my flesh nature can not obey God's commandments. “There is nothing that good lies in me” I always praise God who gives me grace to obey His will not that I can freely choose myself. I am always influenced by His Spirit which abides in me to obey His(God's) will I don't find any free will in this.
Thanks
Adam
Hi gollamudi.
Right on, I agree with you.Blessings.
Quote (gollamudi @ June 08 2008,06:57) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 08 2008,17:54) 942767…..the people in Rev 9:20 will inter into a fiery Judgment with God in the second resurrection and by this intense Judgment that God will bring on them, then they will repent. What you are quoting is what these people are doing in this life, they will come up and be cast into intense judgment (Lake of Fire) “for our GOD is a Consuming Fire”.
This fire is compared to Fire that purifies Gold by melting it and the dross floats to the top and is skimmed off, the gold is purified in fire, symbolically that is whats meant by men being cast into the lake of fire. God's intense judgment is like a fire that purifies us.
The book of revelations was (signified) which means (symbolized). The lake of Fire is symbolic language, and not literally a physical fire, as most think.
IMO…….gene
peace to you…………gene
As few are thinking that Jesus was literal light that was created by God on the day One.
Golla,
The Son of God is the Light, born on day one, not created but begotten/born of God. There is a big difference.
LU(42767……I will address…Joshua with you…..The Spirit that was on Moses was also on Joshua, there is a scripture that say their was a different Spirit on Him.and therfore He obeyed God< It wasn't because of His free will, it was because there was a different spirit on him. I don't know right now where thats at but i remember reading it years ago. In fact it say that why Joshia and i think Caleb also Had the faith and courage to follow God. When Joshua gave those Israel there chance to be faithfull and serve God none of them really did choose to serve God . Because God said "O" that that there were such a heart in them, you see there Just was not , But what does God say I will take out of you that stonry Heart and give you a heart of flesh (soft heart) and i will write my laws in your inward Parts. So why didn't God just say choose for youselfs. the carnal mind is a enemy of God it is not subject to the law of God neither can be. where is there free will to choose to be subject here, it's just not there and it the same with us God has to cause us to be saved and to choose his way. Why does every one think that a bad thing, I am Glad it's not up to me, let God completely guide all my thought and Will that.s just fine with me, my all of my own self will die to God the Fathers will, that fine with me.Then I will Be Just like my brother Jesus who put His own will to death.
Peace to you brother…………….gene
EXODUS 8:15
“When Phar′aoh got to see that relief had taken place, he made his heart unresponsive; and he did not listen to them, just as Jehovah had spoken.”EXODUS 8:32
“However, Phar′aoh made his heart unresponsive this time also and did not send the people away.”I'm just wondering how some would compare these scriptures that say Pharoah hardened his heart with scriptures like this:
Quote Exd 7:13
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.Exd 9:12
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.I think how we can understand these scriptures that say both Jehovah did it, and Pharoah hardened his own heart is this:
The message from Jehovah caused Pharaoh to harden his own heart.
Looking at BOTH statements, how else could we understand this.The Great Potter, Jehovah can and does, for his own wise, just and loving reasons, choose the time, manner and circumstances for rewarding the righteous and punishing the wicked.
Note how clear this point is made at Jeremiah 18:6-8:
“Look! As the clay in the hand of the potter, so you are in my hand, O house of Israel. At any moment that I may speak against a nation and against a kingdom to uproot it and to pull it down and to destroy it, and that nation actually turns back from its badness against which I spoke, I will also feel regret over the calamity that I had thought to execute upon it.”All of Jehovah’s creatures might be likened to clay vessels in a potter’s workshop whom Jehovah God, as the Potter, can and does mold as he pleases. But it is up to the individual piece of clay as a free moral agent and an intelligent creature to choose how he wants to react to Jehovah’s patterns and pressures, either submitting to Jehovah and righteousness, or resisting Jehovah and hardening himself in wickedness.
But once the creature has manifested his attitude, Jehovah may, can and does at times mold that one further and further, either toward honorable service or toward dishonorable use, as suits Jehovah’s sovereign will and purposes.Thus we read that a “bad spirit” from Jehovah came upon King Saul, but this was only after Saul’s heart had gone bad, to the point of no return then, and after Jehovah had finally rejected Saul. (1 Sam. 18:10) Likewise we read of a “deceptive spirit” as being sent from Jehovah upon the four hundred prophets of Israel who were false to begin with, so that their deceptive prophesying prevailed upon King Ahab and he went to his death. (2 Chron. 18:5-27) Similarly Jesus told Judas: “What you are doing get done more quickly.” (John 13:27) Jesus was not putting the idea of betraying him into the mind of Judas, but Judas had gone to the point of no return. Had not Jesus exposed Judas as the one that would betray his Master, and had not Judas failed to deny it or to protest his innocence? Judas did not repent or change his course of action, and so we read that then Satan the Devil entered him, and it was only after this that Jesus said to him: “What you are doing get done more quickly.” And so also with ancient Pharaoh of Egypt in Moses’ day. Jehovah God did not coerce him or arbitrarily harden Pharaoh’s heart or cause him to act against his better judgment, but God simply chose a method of dealing with Pharaoh that allowed him to seek his own further advantage and so harden his heart ever more.
Quote (chosenone @ June 10 2008,11:23) Quote (gollamudi @ June 10 2008,10:43) Wonderful my brother 942767,
If you are able to choose to obey God without any influence then you are really using your free will. If not I differ with you on free will. I only believe I don't have even abillty to obey God because my flesh nature can not obey God's commandments. “There is nothing that good lies in me” I always praise God who gives me grace to obey His will not that I can freely choose myself. I am always influenced by His Spirit which abides in me to obey His(God's) will I don't find any free will in this.
Thanks
Adam
Hi gollamudi.
Right on, I agree with you.Blessings.
Thanks Jerry for your appreciation.David……> your argument falls apart because Judas was predicted to betray Jesus way back in the old testament. It was predestined to Happen. King David was created for His position before He was born He even said so. He said as i recall even His words that he spoke were given him before He was born.
The bottom line about all this is people don't want to believe God is in Complete control of every thing and that includes our predestined salvation. He allows us certain latitudes But He does what He wants with His creation and he is completely Sovereign. How do you explain where it says He fains or frames evil. Another word he set it limits.
If you Get the meaning of (free Will) and look at it closely you will fin there is not such thing as free Will, everything is the result of cause and effect, If you realized how important it is to experience both good and evil in order to get wisdom and learn to love the good and Hate the evil you would see things different.
IMO……..gene
Hi GB,
You say
“King David was created for His position before He was born He even said so.”But Jesus was not?
Nick…..now there you go again, when did i ever say Jesus was not created for His position. Are you just looking for something to argue about NICK.
Quote David……> your argument falls apart because Judas was predicted to betray Jesus way back in the old testament. I don't know that “Judas” specifically was, but anyway, does knowing that someone else is going to do something ahead of time neccessarily mean that that person didn't have a choice?
Quote “Mans goings (good and evil) are of the LORD, how can man understand his own way?”
Prov. 20:24
“It is not of him that willeth… but of God” Rom. 9:16
“It is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure” Phil. 2:13
“who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will” Eph. 1:11
“for of Him and through Him and to Him are all things” Rom 11:36
Sounds like God causes all of our choices.I'm going to start with the first one:
PROVERBS 20:24
“From Jehovah are the steppings of an able-bodied man. As regards earthling man, how can he discern his way?”
Does this mean that God causes all our choices?It reminds me of this scripture:
JEREMIAH 10:23
“I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”
Neither of these scriptures are saying that Jehovah forces our feet to be where they should be.. They are saying that if we direct our own steps, independent of our creators thinking, we will not go anywhere good. It is saying we need the wisdom from above to benefit ourselves.
Another similar thought is found here:
PROVERBS 16:9
“The heart of earthling man may think out his way, but Jehovah himself does the directing of his steps.”(See Prov 16:3)
A man’s heart chooses the way he desires to go, but even when he chooses the correct way, to succeed he must look to Jehovah to direct his steps.
This is similar too:
ISAIAH 48:17-18
“This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: “I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk. O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.”ISAIAH 30:21
“And your own ears will hear a word behind you saying: “This is the way. Walk in it, YOU people,” in case YOU people should go to the right or in case YOU should go to the left.”
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