Free Will?

[GeneBalthrop]

EDJ………NO the definition of a Will Is not the same as a “FREE” WILL, no wonder you number system makes no sense. That is like saying the fat man is the same as all men , no all men are not FAT or saying a “FREE” Man is the same as all men that is not true either because all men are (NOT) “FREE” Now are they. When you introduce a descriptor (FREE) to the Word WILL it separates the WILL into a (type) of WILL, And there exists no such thing as a Will that Is FREE OF INFLUENCES All wills are controlled Wills. WE all live with (captivated Wills) the problem is which captivity is it GODS or the WORLDS. YOU as well as Other get our LIBERTY granted by GOD to freely exercise or influenced wills confused with us (Possessing) “FREE WILLS”> Big difference.

peace and love………………………..gene

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 13 2010,01:46)

EDJ………NO the definition of a Will Is not the same as a “FREE” WILL, no wonder you number system makes no sense. That is like saying the fat man is the same as all men , no all men are not FAT or saying a “FREE” Man is the same as all men that is not true either because all men are (NOT) “FREE” Now are they. When you introduce a descriptor (FREE) to the Word WILL it separates the WILL into a (type) of WILL, And there exists no such thing as a Will that Is FREE OF INFLUENCES All wills are controlled Wills. WE all live with (captivated Wills) the problem is which captivity is it GODS or the WORLDS. YOU as well as Other get our LIBERTY granted by GOD to freely exercise or influenced wills confused with us (Possessing) “FREE WILLS”>  Big difference. peace and love………………………..gene

Hi Gene,

Influence on our will does NOT make it cease to be free to choose!
This is your contention and you offer NO Scriptural backing!

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 12 2010,20:07)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 13 2010,01:46) EDJ………NO the definition of a Will Is not the same as a “FREE” WILL, no wonder you number system makes no sense. That is like saying the fat man is the same as all men , no all men are not FAT or saying a “FREE” Man is the same as all men that is not true either because all men are (NOT) “FREE” Now are they. When you introduce a descriptor (FREE) to the Word WILL it separates the WILL into a (type) of WILL, And there exists no such thing as a Will that Is FREE OF INFLUENCES All wills are controlled Wills. WE all live with (captivated Wills) the problem is which captivity is it GODS or the WORLDS. YOU as well as Other get our LIBERTY granted by GOD to freely exercise or influenced wills confused with us (Possessing) “FREE WILLS”>  Big difference. peace and love………………………..gene Hi Gene, Influence on our will does NOT make it cease to be free to choose! This is your contention and you offer NO Scriptural backing! Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J,
you guys are saying the same thing…

Does this not click in your head?

[terraricca]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 13 2010,13:50)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 12 2010,20:07) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 13 2010,01:46) EDJ………NO the definition of a Will Is not the same as a “FREE” WILL, no wonder you number system makes no sense. That is like saying the fat man is the same as all men , no all men are not FAT or saying a “FREE” Man is the same as all men that is not true either because all men are (NOT) “FREE” Now are they. When you introduce a descriptor (FREE) to the Word WILL it separates the WILL into a (type) of WILL, And there exists no such thing as a Will that Is FREE OF INFLUENCES All wills are controlled Wills. WE all live with (captivated Wills) the problem is which captivity is it GODS or the WORLDS. YOU as well as Other get our LIBERTY granted by GOD to freely exercise or influenced wills confused with us (Possessing) “FREE WILLS”>  Big difference. peace and love………………………..gene Hi Gene, Influence on our will does NOT make it cease to be free to choose! This is your contention and you offer NO Scriptural backing! Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed J, you guys are saying the same thing… Does this not click in your head?

SF

you say it is the same ,i do not believe so ;

but PROVE IT WITH THE scriptures ,because you say that you understand it so well

also ask of gene personal responsibility??
we see??

Pierre

[kerwin]

Mike Boll,

To go on. Since we agree that our words and actions are influenced by our own wills then I see no real disagreement up to that point. I also think we are in agreement that our wills can be swayed by internal and external factors.

The question is “did God create our wills”?

I believe that since he created all things that he did. Gene seems to agree with me.

[kerwin]

To all,

I hope you choose to follow the last three posts in the conversation between Mike Boll and me. Please feel free to add to the conversation. Thank you.

[mikeboll64]

I think everyone here is partially correct.

Ed put it very well:  “Influence on our will does NOT make it cease to be free to choose!”

There are many factors and influences that we bear in mind when deciding something.  So while our wills are under the influence of what God wants from us versus what the world deems acceptable behavior – along with many other factors that weigh in – the bottom line is that we are 100% FREE to choose which path we will take.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding Gene.  I'm reading him to say that God partially “CONTROLS” our decision making process – and I believe that to be false.  God doesn't want robots, or even partial robots.  He wants His children to learn right from wrong, and after doing so, to exercise the FREE WILLS He gave us to choose the right path.  IMO

peace and love,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2010,19:39)

I think everyone here is partially correct. Ed put it very well:  “Influence on our will does NOT make it cease to be free to choose!” There are many factors and influences that we bear in mind when deciding something.  So while our wills are under the influence of what God wants from us versus what the world deems acceptable behavior – along with many other factors that weigh in – the bottom line is that we are 100% FREE to choose which path we will take. Maybe I'm misunderstanding Gene.  I'm reading him to say that God partially “CONTROLS” our decision making process – and I believe that to be false.  God doesn't want robots, or even partial robots.  He wants His children to learn right from wrong, and after doing so, to exercise the FREE WILLS He gave us to choose the right path.  IMO peace and love, mike

mike

you right ,but you can not talking health food and at the same time being a drug addict,there is contradiction,

Gene does not believe in freewill because he believes in predeterminism,and this relieve men of is responsibility of his actions,all of this are in contradiction to each other,

because if it is God who make you do it ,we can not be judge for what we can not prevent,(predeterminism)everyone will be saved,

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Hi Pierre,

I”ve never heard of “pre-determinism” before. I'm with you on that one brother. We will all be judge for OUR actions and choices, not for whether or not God “infuenced us enough”.

Gene, is this correct? Do you believe you are not responsible for your own choices and actions?

mike

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 13 2010,13:20)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2010,19:39) I think everyone here is partially correct. Ed put it very well:  “Influence on our will does NOT make it cease to be free to choose!” There are many factors and influences that we bear in mind when deciding something.  So while our wills are under the influence of what God wants from us versus what the world deems acceptable behavior – along with many other factors that weigh in – the bottom line is that we are 100% FREE to choose which path we will take. Maybe I'm misunderstanding Gene.  I'm reading him to say that God partially “CONTROLS” our decision making process – and I believe that to be false.  God doesn't want robots, or even partial robots.  He wants His children to learn right from wrong, and after doing so, to exercise the FREE WILLS He gave us to choose the right path.  IMO peace and love, mike mike you right ,but you can not talking health food and at the same time being a drug addict,there is contradiction, Gene does not believe in freewill because he believes in predeterminism,and this relieve men of is responsibility of his actions,all of this are in contradiction to each other, because if it is God who make you do it ,we can not be judge for what we can not prevent,(predeterminism)everyone will be saved, Pierre

Hi Terraricca,

Hopefully you can see the difference in these two ideas; Terraricca !
Being saved from the electric chair and walking free are two different things.

2Peter 3:9 9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is
longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Freedom and saved are different! John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 13 2010,13:20)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2010,19:39) I think everyone here is partially correct. Ed put it very well:  “Influence on our will does NOT make it cease to be free to choose!” There are many factors and influences that we bear in mind when deciding something.  So while our wills are under the influence of what God wants from us versus what the world deems acceptable behavior – along with many other factors that weigh in – the bottom line is that we are 100% FREE to choose which path we will take. Maybe I'm misunderstanding Gene.  I'm reading him to say that God partially “CONTROLS” our decision making process – and I believe that to be false.  God doesn't want robots, or even partial robots.  He wants His children to learn right from wrong, and after doing so, to exercise the FREE WILLS He gave us to choose the right path.  IMO peace and love, mike mike you right ,but you can not talking health food and at the same time being a drug addict,there is contradiction, Gene does not believe in freewill because he believes in predeterminism,and this relieve men of is responsibility of his actions,all of this are in contradiction to each other, because if it is God who make you do it ,we can not be judge for what we can not prevent,(predeterminism)everyone will be saved, Pierre

Hi Terraricca,

Hopefully you can see the difference in these two ideas; Terraricca !
Being saved from the electric chair and walking free are two different things.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is
longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Freedom and saved are different! John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2010,20:45)

Hi Pierre, I”ve never heard of “pre-determinism” before.  I'm with you on that one brother.  We will all be judge for OUR actions and choices, not for whether or not God “infuenced us enough”. Gene, is this correct?  Do you believe you are not responsible for your own choices and actions? mike

mike

here is some old Gene comments

Gene Balthrop

Group: Members
Posts: 5953
Joined: June 2007 Posted: May 06 2010,03:47

——————————————————————————–
Terricca……….Determinism is a (SELF WILL) procedure. And there are those who are Self Determined, But GOD Also HAS DETERMINATION, and I believe He is the ONE with the POWER to carry out HIS WILL, with or with MANS SELF WILL Approval. I know you think (FREE) Will is what is important , but it is NOT, only GOD'S WILL is, Our will only cause us to screw up things. Jesus understood this, that is why he said (NOT) MY WILL, but THY WILL Be Done. You as well as all so-called (FREE) WILLERS want to be in control of your own destinies and you are not now or ever will be. Free Will Doctrines only puff up EGOS and are (NOT) truly submissive to the WILL of GOD, It's just a self focus that pumps the Ego's. We need to learn to put OURSELVES or (WILL) to death as Jesus did His. “WE are Created UNTO GOOD WORKS” that is not from our own WILLS, T. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Ahhh……thanks Pierre.

It's strange he quotes Jesus as having his OWN will that is separate from God's, but still praying that God's will be done……not his.

Gene:

Quote

You as well as all so-called (FREE) WILLERS want to be in control of your own destinies and you are not now or ever will be.

I think if God wants to look into it, He knows every choice I'm ever going to make as long as I will exist.  But I haven't made those choices yet from my standpoint, and as they come up, it will be my own free will to choose each and every one of them.

There's a big difference between God already knowing the choice I WILL MAKE tomorrow, and Him making the choice for me.

mike

[kerwin]

Pierre,

What Gene writes is hard to understand. In the case of his post you just wrote he seems to be equating free will to rebellious will. Thus Jesus prayed that He would summit himself, i.e. his rebellious will, and do what God willed instead.

Where do you disagree with that understanding?

[kerwin]

To all,

Did God create our will?

Why do you believe he did or did not?

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 13 2010,20:54)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 13 2010,13:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2010,19:39) I think everyone here is partially correct. Ed put it very well:  “Influence on our will does NOT make it cease to be free to choose!” There are many factors and influences that we bear in mind when deciding something.  So while our wills are under the influence of what God wants from us versus what the world deems acceptable behavior – along with many other factors that weigh in – the bottom line is that we are 100% FREE to choose which path we will take. Maybe I'm misunderstanding Gene.  I'm reading him to say that God partially “CONTROLS” our decision making process – and I believe that to be false.  God doesn't want robots, or even partial robots.  He wants His children to learn right from wrong, and after doing so, to exercise the FREE WILLS He gave us to choose the right path.  IMO peace and love, mike mike you right ,but you can not talking health food and at the same time being a drug addict,there is contradiction, Gene does not believe in freewill because he believes in predeterminism,and this relieve men of is responsibility of his actions,all of this are in contradiction to each other, because if it is God who make you do it ,we can not be judge for what we can not prevent,(predeterminism)everyone will be saved, Pierre Hi Terraricca, Hopefully you can see the difference in these two ideas; Terraricca ! Being saved from the electric chair and walking free are two different things. 2Peter 3:9 9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Freedom and saved are different! John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

wen you quote do it in full;;2Pe 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

what peter says is that God gives us time with his patient

to allow all men time to find him and come to repentance,

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Hi Kerwin,

God created US.  And God GAVE us the FREEDOM to exercise our wills as we choose to.

The way you word it sounds like me asking if God created the thought I just had in my head.  He created me with a brain that is capable of complex thought, but He doesn't “create” my “thoughts”.

Does that make sense?

mike

[kerwin]

Mike Boll,

You are getting ahead of me. I do not believe God creates our thoughts. I do believe he, being both all knowing all powerful, knows in advance what thoughts we will have and either allows them or not. I also believe Satan introduces evil thoughts in our head to tempt us and God allows him to do so in order to test our hearts. We also have an angel who introduces good thoughts. Our desires choose which thoughts to carry to conclusion. I know God is righteous to do this. The initial chapters of book of Job and God’s characteristics are the basis of this belief.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 12 2010,18:56)

“SF………..It is hardly nothing when it involves the very thinking that caused man to separate from GOD in the first place.  I never ever disagree with the fact we all have WILLS now did I?,  What i have over and over disagreed with is the fact that those will are not FREE at ALL. and Have proven it over and over. They are (INFLUENCED) WILL that are at work in us and Not FREE AT ALL but Caused. And you can mouth off all you want but the Facts are that very thinking is what caused the Fall of Man Kind in the beginning and this is a very important subject to think about.  Rather you understand it or not is irrelevant as far as i am concerned. peace and love………………………….gene

What the heck Gene?
actually im trying to support you a bit,
because if you SIMPLY excuted your message correctly people would understand you.

But you dont understand that what YOU believe most people call it FREE WILL. Doesnt mean they actually know what that means!

get it?

so before you tell me that im mouthing off, im actually saying that all you guys are argueing for nothing, when ya all agree.

[SimplyForgiven]

Mike,

Quote

Maybe I'm misunderstanding Gene. I'm reading him to say that God partially “CONTROLS” our decision making process – and I believe that to be false. God doesn't want robots, or even partial robots. He wants His children to learn right from wrong, and after doing so, to exercise the FREE WILLS He gave us to choose the right path. IMO

Read The reconciliation of all things
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=3576
Thats goes along the lines of what Gene believes, yet i think they disagree in a few points here an there.

Anyways, Mike i think you are misunderstanding Gene.
I also rebuked him for the same conclusion, but thats not what he is saying.
I think one time he said, that we can do only what we “permitted to do”

So we have a set number of choices to make or something like that.
So we can Choose within the number of choices that are presented to us.

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