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Choseone,
You seemed to have misunderstood me as I did not state that God did not create Satan. My point is that God did not and does not need or desire an opponent and thus that is not the reason he created Satan.
That leads up to your second point which is that God is supreme, which was the reason I gave for not believing that God needed or desired an opponent. Since this is so it is obvious that I agree with you that God is supreme and no one can do anything unless God allows them to act, think, etc.
You are shortchanging the book of Job as it is also useful for training in righteousness and other things.
Quote (chosenone @ Aug. 04 2010,09:38) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 03 2010,05:22) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2010,20:37) SF……….We all go to hell (hellios) when we die, that word only means the grave. There is no lake of fire either that is a symbol for (INTENSE JUDGMENTS) Which will purify us and cleans us from all unrighteousness. It is not GOD Will that (ANY) PARISH but all come to repentance and all will even if it means to be cast into intense Judgements with GOD. This intense Judgment is now on the house hold of GOD. IMO peace and love……………..gene
Whatever!
let me be like Mike now,fine let me rephrase my question to represent your fantasies.
SO ITS GODS FAULT THAT PEOPLE ARE PUNISHED OR GOING THROUGH JUDGEMENT?
YES OR NO?
SF.
May I give my opinion? The answer is “YES”, all (yes ALL) is of God (Ro.11:36). He is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His will (Eph.1:11).
God cannot sin, He uses 'evil' to effect His pupose, when God uses evil, it is not the same as when mankind uses evil, His (God) is for a purpose, and that pupose is that at the “consummation” (the completed creation) He will be “ALL IN ALL”. (1Cor.15:28).God Bless, Jerry.
Than its Gods fault that i disagree with you,so that means that you should not be in this forum,
but instead submit yourself into heavey intercession for my soul to ask God to correct himself for deceiving me into a lie.
Because of course it Gods fault,
and the very fact that you sinned is Gods fault,
When i sinned, and did all the things i did, i dont really have to worry about it, its Gods fault.
Instead of people stating that the devil made them do it, they should say taht “God made them do it”
Just remember what you have stated, that no matter what you see someone do, remember you stated that its Gods fault.
You believe that God designed everyones destiny,
I believe that God created all individuals with different personalities, who either accept him or reject him, for God already knew their destiny and worked according to what they have chosen for themselves based on who they are.Just like the pharaoh, God hardend his heart and used him, becaues he knew that no matter what way that God demonstrated himself without forcing pharaoh to love him, that pharaoh would reject him.
just like other men who “KNEW” God.
Roman 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.They knew God, and they still rejected him, not because God made them, because they simply refused God.
God is to powerful, to honorable, to majestic, to force an ant to want him? he DESERVES to be CHOSEN, How can a Majesty be rejected by a dirty poor man?
you would have to be FOOLISH. to do such a thing.God deserves to be chosen becaues he is GOD.
ITs an INSULT THAT ANTS like us believe that we are FORCED according to his will to want him, when HE deserves to be Chosen.I also believe in the All in All, but all in all includes his anger, his hatred for sin, and how he deals with it. so its indeed all in all, but into either his wrath or love.
in the end ITs all in all of God.hmm by the way according to colliasians Jesus created everything! fyi…….
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:so if your talking about creator, remember Jesus created everything….just Saying….
Co,
Quote Evil is brought into God’s purpose that creation might be drawn nearer to God Himself—that instead of just hearing Him, it might truly see Him for what He is—a loving Father Who always has the welfare of His creatures close to His heart. But evil can only be introduced if God is always able to control it and use it to His glory. The story of Job demonstrates this completely.
I believe this but not Because God forced but because like the pharaoh never will choose God, God harden his heart to save others.
He used evil people for his own purposes that are to save. becasue God understood peoples choices he uses them to his advantage.Quote (chosenone @ Aug. 04 2010,10:33) Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 04 2010,15:52) Hi brother Jerry,
Good post it is. I think that you mean to say that there is no duality in Christianity. No other being who created evil other than God. No personal devil who influences people to sin except God tests people as He did it in the case of Job. In the O.T there was no concept of personal Satan who is causing evil in the people.
I hope you will understand my logics.Love and peace to you and brother Gene….
Adam
Hi Adam.
You are right, after all, who created 'satan'? Is there another creator aside from God? No, He created the “adversary” to oppose Himself. He needs someone to oppose Him so that He (God) may show His power by him.
Brother kerwin seems to misunderstand scripture, and what Gods purpose was in creating him.God Bless, Jerry.
Well Jesus created Fyi
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:did you forget that the Devil once served God?
than he got puffed up and defied him?You forgot that he(Devil) once served God?
amnesia sucks, no?
Quote (chosenone @ Aug. 04 2010,23:20) kerwin, another article that may interest you… THE MEETING BETWEEN JESUS AND SATAN
The most decisive battle in the world’s history was that between the Adversary and Jesus. To this battle Satan came in person; he appointed no intermediary. Having failed to slay the Lord at birth through Herod, he now mounted a frontal attack at a moment when the Lord was weak through fasting. But Jesus successfully resisted all the testings of His opponent, and in doing so He took the opportunity to proclaim a great truth concerning His Father. For He told Satan, “The Lord your God shall you be worshipping, and to Him only shall you be offering divine service” (Matt.4:10).
This was a quotation from the fifth book of Moses, Deuteronomy (6:13 and 10:20). In fact, all the quotations which Jesus used with such telling effect against Satan are from the same book. David had taken five stones from the brook, and presumably slew Goliath with the fifth, else why did he need five? The last one in the scrip was probably the first to be taken out. Jesus selected five stones from the running water of the Word of God—the five books of Moses, and defeated Satan with apt quotations from the last one.
Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory if Jesus would only worship him. In this, the Adversary was doing what many despots and dictators have done, who have sought divine worship in addition to allegiance as sovereign. Nebuchadnezzar did this when he built his image, but he came to see the error of his ways before he died (Dan.3:4-6; 4:37). Though God might offer the kingdom to Nebuchadnezzar, He retained to Himself the right to be worshipped. And though the kingdoms of this world may (for the time being) be under the jurisdiction of Satan (and it was no imaginary offer that he made to Jesus), God has never conceded to him or to anybody else the right of worship as the One Who is the Supreme.
For God is God, and His glory He will not give to another, least of all to Satan. His deity is absolute.
It is not without significance that Jesus told Satan, “The Lord your God shall you be worshipping, and to Him only shall you be offering divine service.” If the instruction to “Go away” is meant for Satan personally, then so may be the rest of the verse. “The Lord your God shall you be worshipping, and to Him only shall you be offering divine service.” This utterance from the Word of God, handled authoritatively by Jesus, spells the final doom of Satan as an Adversary, but retains him as a creature who will ultimately worship God. Thus will the Deity be glorified.
God Bless, Jerry.
Just like a King who wins a war,He makes everyone, including his enemies to BOW to their knees.
Doesnt mean the Kings enemies will be treated the same as the people, for the Enemies were DEFEATED brought down to their knees to worship the VICTOR, and finally be punished and executed, where as the poeple will enjoy what the king just Won.
Dennison,
It is true that Jesus created creation anew by choosing to die on the cross, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
It is also true if we were in Jesus before entering the new covenant then there would be no reason for him to die on the cross, Ephesians 1:7. So how, before entering the new covenant, could we be in him so all things hold together, Colossians 1:17? That is a direct question.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 05 2010,14:41) Dennison, It is true that Jesus created creation anew by choosing to die on the cross, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
It is also true if we were in Jesus before entering the new covenant then there would be no reason for him to die on the cross, Ephesians 1:7. So how, before entering the new covenant, could we be in him so all things hold together, Colossians 1:17? That is a direct question.
2Co5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.Say what? we destroyed that image when we sinned. therefore we become a new creature in Christ. duh…
Eph1:7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace
I never said we were IN Jesus in the beginning or whatever your talking about, i said he created everything.
because he is life DUH!.
he upholds all general life, and thats why we consists of him, and without him there is no general life, therefore eternaly speaking without him there is no way to the father. receiving eternal life is the new covenant, receiving the breath of life was just the beginning of creation as God saw it fit, as Jesus created. =P
There is no arguements here Brother.
Did Jesus create everything according to colossians kerwin?
i dont have time for your games. all i said he created everything, and you cannot argue that.
Its scriptural.Jesus is the creator.
The tragedy of Christianity is that they made two creators for this universe. This is where I call it a polytheism.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,18:54) [
Just like the pharaoh, God hardend his heart and used him, becaues he knew that no matter what way that God demonstrated himself without forcing pharaoh to love him, that pharaoh would reject him.
SF…………..Eze 36:26…..> A New heart also will i give you, and a new spirit will i put within you: and (I) will take away the stony heart (hard heart) out of yours flesh, and (I) will give you a heart of flesh (soft heart).enough said.
peace and love………………..gene
Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 05 2010,18:28) The tragedy of Christianity is that they made two creators for this universe. This is where I call it a polytheism.
unless you believe that jesus and god are the same personQuote (gollamudi @ Aug. 06 2010,00:28) The tragedy of Christianity is that they made two creators for this universe. This is where I call it a polytheism.
Hi Adam.
There is only one creator, God. His original creation was Jesus (Rev.3:14), and all else was created through Jesus, by the power of God.
Only God has the power, all is created by Him through Jesus.
Co.1:15-17 …15 Who (Jesus) is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (God),
17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.This is my understanding, hope this helps.
God Bless, Jerry.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,12:54) Quote (chosenone @ Aug. 04 2010,09:38) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 03 2010,05:22) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2010,20:37) SF……….We all go to hell (hellios) when we die, that word only means the grave. There is no lake of fire either that is a symbol for (INTENSE JUDGMENTS) Which will purify us and cleans us from all unrighteousness. It is not GOD Will that (ANY) PARISH but all come to repentance and all will even if it means to be cast into intense Judgements with GOD. This intense Judgment is now on the house hold of GOD. IMO peace and love……………..gene
Whatever!
let me be like Mike now,fine let me rephrase my question to represent your fantasies.
SO ITS GODS FAULT THAT PEOPLE ARE PUNISHED OR GOING THROUGH JUDGEMENT?
YES OR NO?
SF.
May I give my opinion? The answer is “YES”, all (yes ALL) is of God (Ro.11:36). He is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His will (Eph.1:11).
God cannot sin, He uses 'evil' to effect His pupose, when God uses evil, it is not the same as when mankind uses evil, His (God) is for a purpose, and that pupose is that at the “consummation” (the completed creation) He will be “ALL IN ALL”. (1Cor.15:28).God Bless, Jerry.
Than its Gods fault that i disagree with you,so that means that you should not be in this forum,
but instead submit yourself into heavey intercession for my soul to ask God to correct himself for deceiving me into a lie.
Because of course it Gods fault,
and the very fact that you sinned is Gods fault,
When i sinned, and did all the things i did, i dont really have to worry about it, its Gods fault.
Instead of people stating that the devil made them do it, they should say taht “God made them do it”
Just remember what you have stated, that no matter what you see someone do, remember you stated that its Gods fault.
You believe that God designed everyones destiny,
I believe that God created all individuals with different personalities, who either accept him or reject him, for God already knew their destiny and worked according to what they have chosen for themselves based on who they are.Just like the pharaoh, God hardend his heart and used him, becaues he knew that no matter what way that God demonstrated himself without forcing pharaoh to love him, that pharaoh would reject him.
just like other men who “KNEW” God.
Roman 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.They knew God, and they still rejected him, not because God made them, because they simply refused God.
God is to powerful, to honorable, to majestic, to force an ant to want him? he DESERVES to be CHOSEN, How can a Majesty be rejected by a dirty poor man?
you would have to be FOOLISH. to do such a thing.God deserves to be chosen becaues he is GOD.
ITs an INSULT THAT ANTS like us believe that we are FORCED according to his will to want him, when HE deserves to be Chosen.I also believe in the All in All, but all in all includes his anger, his hatred for sin, and how he deals with it. so its indeed all in all, but into either his wrath or love.
in the end ITs all in all of God.
bump for CoDennison,
I am sorry but I thought I made myself understandable in that I was pointing out what Colossians 1 states about Jesus in the New International Version and going by your chosen interpretation for that passage. Since according to you Colossians 1:16-18 addresses the old covenant and I observe that Colossians 1:17 does state that in Jesus all things hold together I therefore assumed you believed that it was true before one entered the new covenant since even those outside of the new covenant are a part of the old creation. This mystified me since it appears to oppose the idea that those not in the new covenant need to enter it in order to enter Jesus the Anointed. I was seeking for you to clarify it for me.
I was attempting not to argue a point but to allow you to argue it yourself by asking the questions that challenged your established ideas. This is my second attempt to do so and so I still want to avoid directly stating my own beliefs that relate unless I feel it is necessary to do so. The later is why I spoke of the new creation in the last post.
I do not see this as a mental competition. I suppose it can be regarded as a cooperative spiritual game with each of us striving to aid the other. It is my opinion that we seem to be rather clumsy in the race.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 06 2010,11:15) Dennison, I am sorry but I thought I made myself understandable in that I was pointing out what Colossians 1 states about Jesus in the New International Version and going by your chosen interpretation for that passage. Since according to you Colossians 1:16-18 addresses the old covenant and I observe that Colossians 1:17 does state that in Jesus all things hold together I therefore assumed you believed that it was true before one entered the new covenant since even those outside of the new covenant are a part of the old creation. This mystified me since it appears to oppose the idea that those not in the new covenant need to enter it in order to enter Jesus the Anointed. I was seeking for you to clarify it for me.
I was attempting not to argue a point but to allow you to argue it yourself by asking the questions that challenged your established ideas. This is my second attempt to do so and so I still want to avoid directly stating my own beliefs that relate unless I feel it is necessary to do so. The later is why I spoke of the new creation in the last post.
I do not see this as a mental competition. I suppose it can be regarded as a cooperative spiritual game with each of us striving to aid the other. It is my opinion that we seem to be rather clumsy in the race.
Kerwin,Actually i use the KJV and i only stick to that and the Reina Valdera version,
I never mentioned covenants of any sort. I have no idea what you are talking about. I never mention these points. I just simply Stated that according to Colossians in other words Paul believed that Jesus created the Universe as we know it.
I dont know what you want me to clarify, your not making any sense to me, Honestly speaking. No offense.
I dont see it as a mental competition either, im just naturally sarcastic and like poking people sometimes. Im just playing and teasing around i guess. Im tryin to lighten up in other words.
I made my responses in my last post according to the scriptures you presented. What else do you want me to clarify?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 05 2010,20:00) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,18:54) [
Just like the pharaoh, God hardend his heart and used him, becaues he knew that no matter what way that God demonstrated himself without forcing pharaoh to love him, that pharaoh would reject him.
SF…………..Eze 36:26…..> A New heart also will i give you, and a new spirit will i put within you: and (I) will take away the stony heart (hard heart) out of yours flesh, and (I) will give you a heart of flesh (soft heart).enough said.
peace and love………………..gene
Gene,you frustrate me, there is more to say,
try using the context for once and know that God was talking about those who will reach the promise land.
This has NOTHING to do with Pharaoh,“28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God”
NOW ENOUGH SAID.
Dennison,
I may be drawn to discuss this point in the future but since I seem to be having difficulty communicating my ideas to you at this time so I would like to contemplate on this issue while praying that God to guide me in all things.
I hold that Colossians is speaking about the new creation and not about the old one as all of creation will be and is being created anew in him, Romans 8:19-22.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 06 2010,17:44) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 05 2010,20:00) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,18:54) [
Just like the pharaoh, God hardend his heart and used him, becaues he knew that no matter what way that God demonstrated himself without forcing pharaoh to love him, that pharaoh would reject him.
SF…………..Eze 36:26…..> A New heart also will i give you, and a new spirit will i put within you: and (I) will take away the stony heart (hard heart) out of yours flesh, and (I) will give you a heart of flesh (soft heart).enough said.
peace and love………………..gene
Gene,you frustrate me, there is more to say,
try using the context for once and know that God was talking about those who will reach the promise land.
This has NOTHING to do with Pharaoh,“28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God”
NOW ENOUGH SAID.
SF………..Not really , because GOD can Just as easily harden a heart as he can soften it to serve his purposes and in the case of Pharaoh he hardened his heart JUST AS HE SAID HE DID, Why do you not believe what God said he did. The one taking things out of context is you brother not me I simply believe what GOD said He Did, but you are forcing your dogmas into the text that is not even mention there. IMOpeace and love……………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2010,19:05) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 06 2010,17:44) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 05 2010,20:00) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,18:54) [
Just like the pharaoh, God hardend his heart and used him, becaues he knew that no matter what way that God demonstrated himself without forcing pharaoh to love him, that pharaoh would reject him.
SF…………..Eze 36:26…..> A New heart also will i give you, and a new spirit will i put within you: and (I) will take away the stony heart (hard heart) out of yours flesh, and (I) will give you a heart of flesh (soft heart).enough said.
peace and love………………..gene
Gene,you frustrate me, there is more to say,
try using the context for once and know that God was talking about those who will reach the promise land.
This has NOTHING to do with Pharaoh,“28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God”
NOW ENOUGH SAID.
SF………..Not really , because GOD can Just as easily harden a heart as he can soften it to serve his purposes and in the case of Pharaoh he hardened his heart JUST AS HE SAID HE DID, Why do you not believe what God said he did. The one taking things out of context is you brother not me I simply believe what GOD said He Did, but you are forcing your dogmas into the text that is not even mention there. IMOpeace and love……………………..gene
just bc god has the ability to soften a heart doesnt mean he did. you did not show any prof that god soften the heart of pharaoh. I am not dogmatic like you who took a verse out of context and use it for other purposes. your saying he could have. so what! doesnt mean he did.
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