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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2010,02:09) Chosenone………As i said they Just do not get it brother. They are like the blind leading the blind. It just has not been given them or they could easily see these things. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
If that were true, according to your free will doctrine, they can't help it. They cannot freely choose not to lead the blind and be led by the blind.So why are you even bothering?
Or is it that you think that if you introduce such information, then secretly they might be able to choose to accept something you have said?
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 01 2010,18:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2010,02:09) Chosenone………As i said they Just do not get it brother. They are like the blind leading the blind. It just has not been given them or they could easily see these things. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
If that were true, according to your free will doctrine, they can't help it. They cannot freely choose not to lead the blind and be led by the blind.So why are you even bothering?
Or is it that you think that if you introduce such information, then secretly they might be able to choose to accept something you have said?
t8.
I'l post the first chapter of Ephesians, namely if I post the part that explains this, some will say I took it “out of context”.1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to all the saints who are also believers in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ,
4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,
5 in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will,
6 for the laud of the glory of His grace, which graces us in the Beloved:
7 in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace,
8 which He lavishes on us; in all wisdom and prudence
9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —
11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
12 that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ.
13 In Whom you also — on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation — in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
14 (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!
15 Therefore, I also, on hearing of this faith of yours in the Lord Jesus, and that for all the saints,
16 do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention in my prayers
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may be giving you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the realization of Him,
18 the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, for you to perceive what is the expectation of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of the enjoyment of His allotment among the saints,
19 and what the transcendent greatness of His power for us who are believing, in accord with the operation of the might of His strength,
20 which is operative in the Christ, rousing Him from among the dead and seating Him at His right hand among the celestials,
21 up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending:
22 and subjects all under His feet, and gives Him, as Head over all, to the ecclesia which is His body, the complement of the One completing the all in all.Notice verse 5, what does this mean to you? It seems to me to be saying God has planned this beforehand, in accord with “His WILL”, so could your 'free will' change this? I think not.
Read verse 11, this explisitley says He (God) is operating ALL IN ACCORD WITH HIS WILL. Does not “ALL” mean ALL?
If your will is opposed to “His” will, who's will will be done? The answer os obvious.
This whole chapter is very enlightening if read earnestly, trying to understand what is being said.“All is of God”, is stated many times over in scripture, why not try and understand?
But again, in Ro.11:32 … For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
You see, you are under “His” control, He will give you understanding in His time, in the meantime you will continue to believe as you do now, it is His will, not yours.You say…
QUOTE]If that were true, according to your free will doctrine, they can't help it. They cannot freely choose not to lead the blind and be led by the blind.So why are you even bothering?
[/QUOTE]
This is true, “all is of God”, who is the saviour of all
mankind. (1Tim.4:10)
Not sure what you mean by “so why are you bothering”?God Bless, Jerry.
Co,
So those who go to hell, its because they were chosen by God to go to hell?
Or because God already knew based on their personality and choices that they would end up there?SF……….We all go to hell (hellios) when we die, that word only means the grave. There is no lake of fire either that is a symbol for (INTENSE JUDGMENTS) Which will purify us and cleans us from all unrighteousness. It is not GOD Will that (ANY) PARISH but all come to repentance and all will even if it means to be cast into intense Judgements with GOD. This intense Judgment is now on the house hold of GOD. IMO
peace and love……………..gene
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 01 2010,18:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2010,02:09) Chosenone………As i said they Just do not get it brother. They are like the blind leading the blind. It just has not been given them or they could easily see these things. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
If that were true, according to your free will doctrine, they can't help it. They cannot freely choose not to lead the blind and be led by the blind.So why are you even bothering?
Or is it that you think that if you introduce such information, then secretly they might be able to choose to accept something you have said?
T8……….We cast out the seed , on what soil it falls on is up to GOD the FATHER, recieve these thing if you can if not then reject them. But either way it will not be as a result of a “FREE” WILL but as a result of a (INFLUENCED WILL) , the question is what is (INFLUENCING) Your WILL. IMOPeace and Love to you and yours T8………………………gene
Chosenone………..You have correctly presented it brother. Greater is He that is in us then that, which is in the world. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2010,20:37) SF……….We all go to hell (hellios) when we die, that word only means the grave. There is no lake of fire either that is a symbol for (INTENSE JUDGMENTS) Which will purify us and cleans us from all unrighteousness. It is not GOD Will that (ANY) PARISH but all come to repentance and all will even if it means to be cast into intense Judgements with GOD. This intense Judgment is now on the house hold of GOD. IMO peace and love……………..gene
Whatever!
let me be like Mike now,fine let me rephrase my question to represent your fantasies.
SO ITS GODS FAULT THAT PEOPLE ARE PUNISHED OR GOING THROUGH JUDGEMENT?
YES OR NO?
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 03 2010,05:22) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2010,20:37) SF……….We all go to hell (hellios) when we die, that word only means the grave. There is no lake of fire either that is a symbol for (INTENSE JUDGMENTS) Which will purify us and cleans us from all unrighteousness. It is not GOD Will that (ANY) PARISH but all come to repentance and all will even if it means to be cast into intense Judgements with GOD. This intense Judgment is now on the house hold of GOD. IMO peace and love……………..gene
Whatever!
let me be like Mike now,fine let me rephrase my question to represent your fantasies.
SO ITS GODS FAULT THAT PEOPLE ARE PUNISHED OR GOING THROUGH JUDGEMENT?
YES OR NO?
SF.
May I give my opinion? The answer is “YES”, all (yes ALL) is of God (Ro.11:36). He is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His will (Eph.1:11).
God cannot sin, He uses 'evil' to effect His pupose, when God uses evil, it is not the same as when mankind uses evil, His (God) is for a purpose, and that pupose is that at the “consummation” (the completed creation) He will be “ALL IN ALL”. (1Cor.15:28).God Bless, Jerry.
Hi brother Jerry,
Good post it is. I think that you mean to say that there is no duality in Christianity. No other being who created evil other than God. No personal devil who influences people to sin except God tests people as He did it in the case of Job. In the O.T there was no concept of personal Satan who is causing evil in the people.
I hope you will understand my logics.Love and peace to you and brother Gene….
AdamAdam,
I have to disagree with you as Satan tempted various raiders to sin and thus raid Job. He also tempted David to take a census of the people. He is the king of demons.
Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 04 2010,15:52) Hi brother Jerry,
Good post it is. I think that you mean to say that there is no duality in Christianity. No other being who created evil other than God. No personal devil who influences people to sin except God tests people as He did it in the case of Job. In the O.T there was no concept of personal Satan who is causing evil in the people.
I hope you will understand my logics.Love and peace to you and brother Gene….
Adam
Hi Adam.
You are right, after all, who created 'satan'? Is there another creator aside from God? No, He created the “adversary” to oppose Himself. He needs someone to oppose Him so that He (God) may show His power by him.
Brother kerwin seems to misunderstand scripture, and what Gods purpose was in creating him.God Bless, Jerry.
chosenone,
I doubt that God created Satan, the king of demons, because God wanted an opponent. Satan serves God after all though in his heart he rebels.
Since you chose to speculate on why God chose to do something I myself will point out that Satan tests the hearts of men with his tempting and acts of oppression. That means that Satan separates the wheat from the chaff and that he also refines those that will be saved. Since he does those things I am going to say he was designed to do them.
I am not sure why you think there is a link between my point that Satan tempts the hearts of men and the purpose Satan serves. I do not see the connection.
Hey Gene.
When a murderer says, “The Devil MADE me do it”, I guess with your doctrine should he not be forgiven.
After all, he was not free to do otherwise according to you.
I await your possible reply as it depends on whether you are allowed to by reason of being able to make that choice.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2010,16:02) Adam, I have to disagree with you as Satan tempted various raiders to sin and thus raid Job. He also tempted David to take a census of the people. He is the king of demons.
No brother Kerwin,
It is God who incited David to take census of Israel as per 2 Sam 24. In Judaism there is no room for another Devil or god of this world to tempt people to sin. The so called satan in O.T is the humble servant of God never an independent being. Christianity incorporated all Paganism into its religion from its neighbours.Quote (t8 @ Aug. 04 2010,20:38) Hey Gene. When a murderer says, “The Devil MADE me do it”, I guess with your doctrine should he not be forgiven.
After all, he was not free to do otherwise according to you.
I await your possible reply as it depends on whether you are allowed to by reason of being able to make that choice.
T8……….It certainly was an adversarial (SPIRIT) Intellect that caused him to murder the person he murdered right? So in that sense a Satan did do it, only the Satan was (HIM). In fact you are the one who believes a SATAN (BEING) causes all the Evil in the World by jumping in and out of People not Me. I believe that a satan can be anyone With an adversarial Spirit (intellect) in them even you at times and even Peter at times and the Pharisees and Judas Himself was a devil as Jesus said He was.The captivated Will driven by Lusts are what drives a person and these are recieved from the world, as John (PLAINLY SAID) they were , when are you going to start believing what Scriptures say T8 and quite trying to makes it fit (YOUR) own (INFLUENCED WILL), which is (FAR) from a “FREE WILL” brother.
Peace and love to you and yours T8…………………..gene
kerwin, you say…
Quote I doubt that God created Satan, the king of demons, because God wanted an opponent. Satan serves God after all though in his heart he rebels.
Isaiah 54:16 …”And I (God), I created the ruiner to harm”. Can there be another creater? The answer is obvious.You also say …
Quote I am not sure why you think there is a link between my point that Satan tempts the hearts of men and the purpose Satan serves. I do not see the connection.
Answer …GOD MAY DELEGATE SOVEREIGNTY
BUT NOT HIS SUPREMACYIn the course of the out-working of this purpose, God has at times allowed some to exercise a certain amount of sovereignty and control over others, but never to the extent of undermining, even to the slightest degree, His own supremacy.
This is shown most forcefully in His dealings with Satan, for in the book of Job, God drew clear lines of demarcation over which the Adversary might not trespass. In Job 1:12, Satan was permitted to touch all that Job had but not the man himself; later, in 2:6, he was permitted to afflict Job himself but not to take his life. The fact that God could erect such barriers over which His chief opponent might not pass is a clear demonstration of the deity of God.
This is the whole meaning and purpose of the book of Job. It is the oldest lesson in the world. It is not primarily about Job, or about his friends, or even about Satan, but about God. God is revealing Himself in this book as the Supreme One, to Whom all others must be subject, and this includes Satan, who is seen to be an instrument through whom God is operating to bring Job to a realization of Himself. And let us concede, as we contemplate Job’s experiences, that his friends could furnish no satisfactory answer to his problems. They are only brought into the drama to emphasize the inadequacy of human wisdom and the futility of human counsel. Job must learn from God alone, and the result of it all is shown in chapter 42, verses 5 and 6, “Verily with the ear I heard Thee, yet now my eyes see Thee. Therefore I am rejecting myself, and I regret on soil and ashes.”
Evil is brought into God’s purpose that creation might be drawn nearer to God Himself—that instead of just hearing Him, it might truly see Him for what He is—a loving Father Who always has the welfare of His creatures close to His heart. But evil can only be introduced if God is always able to control it and use it to His glory. The story of Job demonstrates this completely.
copied from 'Concordant Publishing Concern'.
Hopes this explains your question.
Jerry.
kerwin, another article that may interest you…
THE MEETING BETWEEN JESUS AND SATAN
The most decisive battle in the world’s history was that between the Adversary and Jesus. To this battle Satan came in person; he appointed no intermediary. Having failed to slay the Lord at birth through Herod, he now mounted a frontal attack at a moment when the Lord was weak through fasting. But Jesus successfully resisted all the testings of His opponent, and in doing so He took the opportunity to proclaim a great truth concerning His Father. For He told Satan, “The Lord your God shall you be worshipping, and to Him only shall you be offering divine service” (Matt.4:10).
This was a quotation from the fifth book of Moses, Deuteronomy (6:13 and 10:20). In fact, all the quotations which Jesus used with such telling effect against Satan are from the same book. David had taken five stones from the brook, and presumably slew Goliath with the fifth, else why did he need five? The last one in the scrip was probably the first to be taken out. Jesus selected five stones from the running water of the Word of God—the five books of Moses, and defeated Satan with apt quotations from the last one.
Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory if Jesus would only worship him. In this, the Adversary was doing what many despots and dictators have done, who have sought divine worship in addition to allegiance as sovereign. Nebuchadnezzar did this when he built his image, but he came to see the error of his ways before he died (Dan.3:4-6; 4:37). Though God might offer the kingdom to Nebuchadnezzar, He retained to Himself the right to be worshipped. And though the kingdoms of this world may (for the time being) be under the jurisdiction of Satan (and it was no imaginary offer that he made to Jesus), God has never conceded to him or to anybody else the right of worship as the One Who is the Supreme.
For God is God, and His glory He will not give to another, least of all to Satan. His deity is absolute.
It is not without significance that Jesus told Satan, “The Lord your God shall you be worshipping, and to Him only shall you be offering divine service.” If the instruction to “Go away” is meant for Satan personally, then so may be the rest of the verse. “The Lord your God shall you be worshipping, and to Him only shall you be offering divine service.” This utterance from the Word of God, handled authoritatively by Jesus, spells the final doom of Satan as an Adversary, but retains him as a creature who will ultimately worship God. Thus will the Deity be glorified.
God Bless, Jerry.
Quote (chosenone @ Aug. 05 2010,12:15) kerwin, you say… Quote I doubt that God created Satan, the king of demons, because God wanted an opponent. Satan serves God after all though in his heart he rebels.
Isaiah 54:16 …”And I (God), I created the ruiner to harm”. Can there be another creater? The answer is obvious.You also say …
Quote I am not sure why you think there is a link between my point that Satan tempts the hearts of men and the purpose Satan serves. I do not see the connection.
Answer …GOD MAY DELEGATE SOVEREIGNTY
BUT NOT HIS SUPREMACYIn the course of the out-working of this purpose, God has at times allowed some to exercise a certain amount of sovereignty and control over others, but never to the extent of undermining, even to the slightest degree, His own supremacy.
This is shown most forcefully in His dealings with Satan, for in the book of Job, God drew clear lines of demarcation over which the Adversary might not trespass. In Job 1:12, Satan was permitted to touch all that Job had but not the man himself; later, in 2:6, he was permitted to afflict Job himself but not to take his life. The fact that God could erect such barriers over which His chief opponent might not pass is a clear demonstration of the deity of God.
This is the whole meaning and purpose of the book of Job. It is the oldest lesson in the world. It is not primarily about Job, or about his friends, or even about Satan, but about God. God is revealing Himself in this book as the Supreme One, to Whom all others must be subject, and this includes Satan, who is seen to be an instrument through whom God is operating to bring Job to a realization of Himself. And let us concede, as we contemplate Job’s experiences, that his friends could furnish no satisfactory answer to his problems. They are only brought into the drama to emphasize the inadequacy of human wisdom and the futility of human counsel. Job must learn from God alone, and the result of it all is shown in chapter 42, verses 5 and 6, “Verily with the ear I heard Thee, yet now my eyes see Thee. Therefore I am rejecting myself, and I regret on soil and ashes.”
Evil is brought into God’s purpose that creation might be drawn nearer to God Himself—that instead of just hearing Him, it might truly see Him for what He is—a loving Father Who always has the welfare of His creatures close to His heart. But evil can only be introduced if God is always able to control it and use it to His glory. The story of Job demonstrates this completely.
copied from 'Concordant Publishing Concern'.
Hopes this explains your question.
Jerry.
COAnswer …GOD MAY DELEGATE SOVEREIGNTY
BUT NOT HIS SUPREMACYso you say,;you must have been there when it happen?
God has supremacy and sovereignty and give nothing to no one.
it is not because you got a Job that now you have authority
just because you are executing the orders who are given to you ? you got a big ego don't you.anyone who put himself under God grace and power has only what it says ,GOD GRACE.
is this not your faith??
Pierre
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