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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 19 2010,14:49) Terriracca………Is that why I have had hundreds of answered Prayers in my Life , have seen the dead raised to life again, Have seen an object enter my door when i was deathly and circle around my head as was (INSTANTLY) healed all these were witnessed by others who were there also. Have had many miracles done in my life , and prayer answered by the hundreds , now tell me am i going to listen to some half wit like yourself who only knows how to accuse the brethren and label them. Should i lay that all aside and believe someone like yourself who probably hasn't even seen one miracles in his life, Should we trust you and accuser of the brethren a falsifier of the truth of GOD?, and lose the proofs GOD has directly given us in our live and revealed to us. Surely you Jest> gene
genei have seen many things in my live but you beat the record,i know you never sew dead people come back alive and i mean dead like in no existence;
your miracle have not be made by Gods spirit because in all what i read from since i am on this site ,you are not preaching what is true in Gods name,the truth rather runs away from your tongue;
you may have some success in other things not related to God the father of Christ,
your ego of accomplishment is to high to glorify your maker
even a liar calls himself a victim of others who do not believe him,
i know i am nothing ,but i do know my God and his son,and there glory will be always in my heart and on my tongue,
my miracle are mine i will not share them with any one unless he is my brother in truth totally.
as far that it goes with your comment ;;;; Have had many miracles done in my life , and prayer answered by the hundreds , now tell me am i going to listen to some half wit like yourself who only knows how to accuse the brethren and label them.;;;;
you should by now understand that you are not preaching the truth of Gods word and so are not my brother, you are just a false teacher and prophet,those Jesus says their father is the devil
at the least i know what i am ,nothing,God and Christ is everything;
Pierre
Quote (chosenone @ July 19 2010,12:29) Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,12:22) Quote (chosenone @ July 19 2010,12:08) Ed J.
Yes, http://www.concordant.orgJerry.
Hi Chosenone,Can you show me where is talks about (no according to you) “Free Will” in what you Posted?
Ed J.
In the website I gave you, look under “expositions (html)”. You will find it in the many topics listed.
Jerry.
Hi Chosenone,You mean you Posted all that 'squag',
but you won't attempt to convince others about
'your assertion' of no (according to 'you') “Free Will”?Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ July 18 2010,13:47) barley……. You have completely misunderstood what i was saying. So you are saying Jesus was lying when He said ” (NO) man can come unto me (EXCEPT) the Father DRAW HIM. In you belief you would say that was a lie because You believe WE BY our (non Scriptural) FREE WILL Chose GOD on OUR Own. The work of you so-called devil is to Not submit to GOD'S Will and this is achieved By Maintaining your independence from GOD and His INFLUENCE> Exactly what Adam and EVE did, they chose to be FREE of GOD and Chose for themselve what is rght and what is wrong. All “FREE” Wheller think this way.
Why have you not addressed the scriptures i have quoted in the above post. Does GOD (REALLY) Work (IN) Us Both to (WILL) and DO of (HIS) GOOD Pleasure”, or not, In you belief that does not take place because GOD Has given you a “FREE” WILL a will free of any influence, so you do not need Him to Work (IN) YOU and cause anything to happen in you right? Get our Point? You by maintaining a Will “FREE” from God are being a GOD unto yourself. Free Weller's maintain there freedoms apart from GOD Will, but Jesus did not say that did He , He said the son of Man came not to do (HIS) will but the Will of Him who sent Him. But You and “FREE Weller” say that is not true because Jesus Chose out of His (OWN) So Called, “FREE WILL to serve GOD and do GOD'S Will but scripture show He put his will to death even the death on the cross. That death was Not his WILL it was God's Will Being done. So answer us this Why did He even Need God's Spirit then, in fact why do (we) Need God's Spirit if our own so-called FREE Wills can do it . Why did God say” it is not withing a man to Direct His paths” Why does Scripture say the LORD bless you and (KEEP) You who needs Him if our own So-called FREE WILLS can do it ourselves.
So I will ask you the same question have ask many Show ONE SCRIPTURE that says we Have a “FREE” WILL (IN) us. I have yet to see even ONE Scripture that say that. IMO
PEACE AND LOVE………………….gene
Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the lord Jesus Christ.
Maybe I have read into your post something that was not there. If so, I apologize.
Let's consider the verse about the Father draw him.
Is this scripture teaching that we had no choice in the matter? No.
Did God predetermine who would believe and who would not? No.
Until I realize that I have a choice in a matter, I cannot exercise my ability to choose. I cannot exercise my free will until I know I have choices.
God is all knowing, Let me expound with a small parable. God would not go fishing in a lake that has no fish. God knowing what lakes have the fish he wants, would go fishing in those lakes. Likewise, God knows already who will choose to believe. He helps them along to believe, He knows already that we will be lovers of the truth when we are given the opportunity, so we are the one's He fishes for.
This is not a difficult concept. A good businessman, say a computer designer, knowing what people are looking for will design computers that meet the need of what people are looking for. And the businessman does not even have fore knowledge. He just listens to customers and other people, he reads. He simply planned ahead based on info he was getting.
God knew Pharaoh would harden his heart, so He planned accordingly, and instructed Moses according to what God knew would get the job done. God also knew the Moses could and would lead the children of Israel if Moses were given the opportunity. God chose wisely, Moses responded wisely. Moses understood God's abilities in these situations, and chose to obey Him.
God can and does work in those who choose to believe. Philippians was not written to babes in Christ, but rather to those who had been around for a while and had been faithfully living the truth. God can and does work in individuals like that. I know that God works in me both to will and to do His pleasure. I want my life to please God. God wants my life to please Him, so that I can reap the blessings that He wants for me. Yet we all murmur and dispute at times. Philippians 2:12-15, especially verse 14. My fellow Bible students help me out with challenges in my life. I do not always like the counsel they give. But I would like to think that when I recognize their counsel as scriptural and wise, I would choose to accept it and do it. But that is my choice and my choice alone. When I accept their godly counsel, I reap the blessings.
We choose to do what God works in us or we murmur and dispute. Did not the children of Israel murmur and dispute with Moses? What was the results of that? They made a poor choice and reaped the consequences of the seed they sowed.
I, by my free will, choose to serve God, I did this. I freely chose to line myself up with God's will. I chose to continue in the word, and therefore I get to know the truth and the truth makes me free.
I chose to serve God, not the god of this world, satan. I have a choice God or Satan, there is no fence to sit on. People may switch back and forth, but that is their choice. We can choose to serve good or evil.
When we choose to serve God, we limit ourselves to living those things which are truth. We abhor false doctrines. Truth sets us free, false doctrines bind us up.
Free will is different from the wisdom or ability to carry out a choice. When we make the choice to get saved. Romans 10:9-10, God endues us with power from on high, so that we have the ability to do His will and please Him. God enabled us to do what we want to do, namely, love God, by keeping His commandments.
People make all kinds of choices, some wise, some ignorant, man is not capable of him self to make all wise choices. God however can work in a believer to help him make wise choices. First from the scripture, then by that power that God endued that believer with.
If you are a car mechanic, you cannot work on cars without tools. You are incapable of fixing cars without tools. Yet the man who is a mechanic, chose to be a mechanic. Once he made the choice to be a mechanic, he also sought out the tools that would enable him to carry out that decision.
Not having tools is not a loss or negation of free will, it is temporary lack of ability to carry out his decision to be a mechanic. Once the man decides to be a mechanic, he must also decide to acquire the tools necessary to do mechanical work.
Free will to choose and the ability to carry out choices are not the same thing.
Once we decide out of our free wills to serve God, then God is able to power us up to carry out His will.
I do not know you well enough to understand all the nuances of meaning you may have intended. It may be that this post of mine will help us communicate more clearly.
May you could help me understand you point by clearly defining what you mean by 1. free and 2. will.
I think that would help me understand you much better.
Thanks
barely…………I am going to slow this down. First there is (NO) scripture that says we have a free will (IN) us. Now the rem free will is to say it is a will that is (FREE) , So if we consider the word free attached to our wills, then that is to say our will are free of any influences of any kind, but a will by the very word itself shows it is (INFLUENCED) driven because it is simply the expression of our (DESIRES) . So to Say we Have a Free Will is and OXYMORON< because a will can not exist without desires and influence derived by some kind of Knowledge we have already acquired in the past.
Jesus said he would build His church, How?……….It was by the ROCK , that is the power of GOD to get into our minds and reveal truth to us , as GOD did to PETER and Peter responded to Jesus You are the Christ the Son of GOD, Jesus said Back (blessed) are you Simon Barjona because (now listen to this) did not reveal this unto you but my Father who is in Heave has revealed this unto you, then he went on to say an upon (THIS) Rock I will Build the Church. That rock was the power of GOD to get into our minds and show us truth.
You said You FREELY Chosen GOD to line yourself with Him through your Own Free will Choices. But Jesus said that is impossible to do, Because He said (NO MAN (CAN) COME UNTO ME. Without the FATHER DRAWING HIM. That is why we are saved BY GRACE and NOT of OURSELVES IT is a (GIFT) of GOD Least any should BOAST.
Our salvation is not a combination of Us and GOD it is a Work the GOD ALONE DOES. WE et (NO) Glory in the Process of our salvation.
You said , God Chose Pharaoh because His Heart was already Hardened, that simply is not true Brother, Scripture say God harden Pharaoh Heart. I simply believe what it plainly say, if it say God caused it then He caused it.
Bradely can't you see what you have fallen into , this false ideology of our own work as the saving decision in our lives, it is taking president over GOD and His saving Work , because you are limiting GOD'S Work to your (free will) acceptance, that still makes you the master of your destiny not GOD. NO WILL the is FREE.
That is why there are (NO) Scriptures that say we Have a Will that is FREE (IN) Us. Every thing you chose you chose from you preexisting knowledge and that Knowledge guides you thought and your will , Just as GOD Knowledge guides His thoughts and will also.
You are confusion our liberty to exercise our captivated or influenced Wills and being a Free Will (IN) us as Most do. Salvation is Not and exercise of our so called Free WILL, it is the very act and Power of GOD himself that saves despite ourselves.
Here is some terms to consider what it means…………………….Elect of GOD
Whom he foreknew he predestined to become son of GOD
Chosen before the foundations of the world
the son of man can do (NOTHING) of himself
The son of man came not to do His WILL but the Will of him who sent him
For you are (CREATED) unto good works
You did (NOT) Chose Me but I Chose you
God is the potter we are the clay, to (MAKE) of the same lump…..
God works (IN) us both to (WILL) and (DO) HIS good pleasure
On and on it goes with that shows it is (ALL) of GOD , and in all this not even (ONE) scripture that say a man has a Will that is FREE (IN) HIM. the term FREE WILL is and OXYMORON , simply put a will could (NOT) be a WILL is it were FREE, not our or GOD'S WILL is FREE, our Wills are the result of Knowledge Just like GOD Will is.
One more thing braley Faith is Not from the self , it is Given BY GOD, “For He has given a measure of Faith unto every man”. He has given some more then others, But it still came from God. There is only one creator and Savior, and that is GOD the Father Alone. IMO
Hope this helped you better understand what i am saying brother.
peace and lvoe to you and yours……………………gene
Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,13:46) Quote (chosenone @ July 19 2010,12:29) Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,12:22) Quote (chosenone @ July 19 2010,12:08) Ed J.
Yes, http://www.concordant.orgJerry.
Hi Chosenone,Can you show me where is talks about (no according to you) “Free Will” in what you Posted?
Ed J.
In the website I gave you, look under “expositions (html)”. You will find it in the many topics listed.
Jerry.
Hi Chosenone,You mean you Posted all that 'squag',
but you won't attempt to convince others about
'your assertion' of no (according to 'you') “Free Will”?Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J.
You sayQuote You mean you Posted all that 'squag',
Could anyone who believes “www.holycitybiblecode.org” has any truth, even recognise 'squag'?Jerry.
Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,11:20) Quote (chosenone @ July 19 2010,05:53) Here is a rather lengthly article on so-salled “free will”. His Achievement Are We
Part OneOUR SAVIOUR GOD
GOD ALONE is our Saviour. Through Isaiah, He declares, “I, I, Yahweh am El [God]! And there is no Saviour apart from Me” (Isa.43:11). He is the Subjector and the Saviour: “An El, just, and a Saviour. And none is there except Me” (Isa.45:21).
Our need for God is an all-encompassing one. We need Him “every hour,” continually, not merely upon occasion. For at all times we either need to be saved from sinful practices or to be preserved in the paths of righteousness.
The presence of God’s saving power is often unrecognized, even among those in whom it is operating extensively. Ignorance of divine grace is a primary cause of human ingratitude. Men are inordinately proud of their self-control, for they suppose it to be their own creation. They do not realize that self-control, along with all else that is virtuous and agreeable, is always a fruit of the spirit (Gal.5:23); it is never a work of the flesh.
It is a major step forward when the unbeliever finally turns to God, having discovered that he is not really self-sufficient after all. It is at least as great an advancement when the believer repudiates all confidence in the flesh, and begins to rely upon God alone.
Whenever we are faithful, it is true, in a relative sense, that thus we “save ourselves” (for example, from withdrawing from the faith; cf 1 Tim.4:1,16). But we only do this in His grace. Therefore boasting in man is debarred: “Toil I—yet not I but the grace of God which is with me” (1 Cor.15: 10).
Our actions are God’s channels; they are not a source, but a conduit. Any course of action which we may take which is essential to a goal, is the fruit, not the root of salvation. Though practical salvation is through our works, it is not out of our works. For grace is not out of works, and salvation is both in and by grace. “Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6). Should we be enabled to carry such marvelous salvation into effect in our lives, this will be so thanks to our Saviour, not ourselves: “For it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight” (Phil.2:13).
All that is faithful and pleasing to God is due in its entirety to His gracious provision and direction. A realization of this truth is essential to maturity and humility. For no one can walk humbly with his God who conceives of himself as the one who finally turns defeat into victory. Therefore, we must not boast of what we have “let” the Lord do in our lives. Submission to Him can never afford us an occasion for self-boasting, but only a further opportunity to thank God for His saving grace.
It wounds our self-respect to think that we might actually need such a gracious and powerful provision. And when we recognize God’s true grace, it cuts ever so deeply into our pride. Many are ready to assure us that such grace is neither given nor needed. We find such claims to be quite flattering; they make it easier for us to preserve our self-reliant attitudes and ways.
However, we will do well to consider the story of the gracious creditor and his two debtors, one of whom owed ten times more than the other. Since neither were able to pay, “he deals graciously with them both” (Luke 7:42). Though both were appreciative, it was the one “with whom he deals the more graciously” who was “loving him more” (Luke 7:42,43). Similarly, when God gives us an understanding and appreciation of the graciousness of His operations, both for us and in us, we are enabled to love Him more.
May we not, like Belshazzar, exalt ourselves over the Lord of the heavens, in Whose hand is our breath, and “for Whom” are all our paths (cf Dan.5:23). When we exalt ourselves, due to our failure to perceive God’s all-sufficient hand upon us, we fail to honor Him. When we take such an approach, our career can only be “weighed on the scales and found lacking” (cf Dan.5:27).TWO FUNDAMENTAL ERRORS
Most believers consider “free will” and “eternal punishment” to be foundational truth. However, a few consider these same concepts to be foundational error. Of course many among those on both sides of these questions have simply taken a position; most are not aware of the basic issues to be decided. Consequently, confusion is perpetuated, prejudice and ignorance prevail, and these important matters are never resolved.
We propose to examine many of the basic issues involved in these questions, such as faith, choice, foreknowledge, voluntary action, judgment and trials. The fulcrum point of our considerations will be God’s achievements through the death and resurrection of Christ. What is the scope of these achievements in our salvation and with respect to His ultimate purpose to become All in all?
The prevailing idea today is that God saves us (from “eternal punishment”) only after we first save ourselves from being disqualified for His alleged “gift.” While He wishes to assist us even in this, He will only do so if we are willing and cooperative. One must save himself from unwillingness. Finally, we are left on our own. When we need Him the most, He will do nothing. That is: God helps those who help themselves.
Though it is acknowledged that we cannot earn salvation, it is insisted that we still have to qualify for it! Such a claim is nonsensical, for “earn” and “qualify” are synonyms. The basic idea of compensation is common to both. For example: a successful salesman qualifies for a luxurious vacation by earning a sufficient number of bonus points.
The popular idea that we must qualify ourselves for salvation in order to escape being consigned to everlasting punishment is a repudiation of God’s grace. Besides, all power and ability come from God, Who alone is our gracious Saviour.
This is our theme throughout this study. The purpose for its writing is to make known this great truth. We are taking up the error of human free will first, and the error of everlasting punishment second.FAITH AND THE EVANGEL FOR TODAY
It is wonderful to know that “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (1 Tim.1:15), not merely to make it possible for sinners to be saved. Similarly, we were not conciliated to God through accepting Christ or believing in the death of His Son. Instead, “We were conciliated to God through the death of His Son” (Rom.5:10). Likewise, Christ did not die in order that our sins might be forgiven; for He would never need to die for God merely to forgive us. He died that God as our judge, might have a just basis for justifying us or declaring us righteous. He “was given up because of our offenses, and was roused because of our justifying” (Rom.4:25). We are “now justified in His blood” (Rom.5:9).
But this is only so “through Jesus Christ’s faith” (Rom.3:22), “the faith of Jesus” (Rom.3:26). This is what such passages as these say; they speak of Christ’s own faith, not of our faith in Christ. They no more mean our faith in Him, than the words “the faith of Abraham” (Rom.4:16) mean our faith in Abraham! It is incorrect to translate them otherwise. To do so is to interpret, not translate. But since men are so confident that they are saved (from “Hell”) through “accepting Christ,” they assume that any reference to faith in association with Christ must be their own, instead of His. They
think of their own faith as what keeps them from being lost. Such a conception of “grace” is perfectly indistinguishable from a reward.THUS YOU BELIEVE
Faith is essential to our salvation, but it is not a “requirement.” It is “essential” only in the sense that there are none in Christ but those who have faith in Him; they all genuinely believe that He died and rose (cf 1 Thess.4:14). All such ones are brethren in Christ. For God gives all His people at least some faith in at least this much. God is especially (though not exclusively) the Saviour of believers (1 Tim.4:10); it is these chosen ones who alone are “happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian” (2 Tim.2:10).
Why did the Corinthians believe? Was it merely the result of a “free will” decision of their own, or was it because, like Paul, God’s powerful grace was with them in a wonderful way? To all who have eyes to see, Paul’s words concerning this matter are unmistakable:
Paul had been the foremost of sinners (1 Tim.1:15). For beyond all others, he had committed much contrary to the name of Jesus the Nazarene, and punished and persecuted the ecclesia of God exceedingly (1 Cor.15:9; Acts 9:1; 26:9-11). Therefore it required “all His patience” (1 Tim.1:16) for the Lord to deal with this terrible sinner and to graciously save him. Many years later, when writing his Ephesian epistle, Paul painfully recalled those evil days, and in light of them could only speak of himself as “less than the least of all saints” (Eph.3:8).
“Yet, in the grace of God I am what I am [now]” (1 Cor.15: 10a), Paul insists to the Corinthians. For the Lord had met him on the Damascus road. The faith and love of Christ Jesus came over him and changed him from being the foremost sinner among men into the faithful and obedient apostle to the nations, of whom we are to become imitators (1 Cor.11:1; Phil.3:17).
Paul accounts for the faith of the Corinthians (even as the heralding of the twelve, cf 1 Cor.12:5) on this same ground: “His grace, which is in me, did not come to be for naught, but more exceedingly than all of them toil I—yet not I, but the grace of God which is with me. Then, whether I or they, thus [houtos, THE-SAME-AS] we are heralding and thus you believe” (1 Cor.15: 10b, 11).
The grace of God is effective, not merely potential. Faith is God’s gracious gift to us, with which He overwhelms our former unbelief, imparting to all whom He calls a measure thereof, whenever it delights Him to unveil His Son in us (cf Phil.1:29; 1 Tim.1:13-16; Rom.12:3; Gal. 1:15,16). This proves that salvation is not a refusable offer, and that faith is not spiritual currency. Faith is not meritorious. Accepting Christ is not a transaction. Salvation is a gracious gift, not a covenant or agreement. Those who are yet of a mind to “strike a deal” with God, are in no mood to acknowledge their need of a Saviour.CHRIST PAID ALL
Salvation in Christ is not “the greatest bargain in all the universe,” for it is not a bargain at all. It is neither cheap nor expensive. It is free. We need not be “willing to pay the price,” for there is no price to pay. Christ paid it all. He was made sin; God condemned sin in the flesh in the sacrifice of His Son (2 Cor.5:21; Rom.8:3).
Salvation is not a reward for having done the right thing, or for “meeting conditions.” As with Abraham (Rom.4:16-21), our faith reveals to us what is already true, concerning what God has promised. It gives us assurance.
“God, Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling,” has promised to glorify and conform to the image of His Son, all those whom He chose “in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian;” this evangel “now is being manifested” (2 Tim.1:9,10). “Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise” (Gal.4:28; cf Rom.9:9-11). This is the gospel—not some offer of a way to escape “Hell.”
The customary “invitation” or “altar call” of today is simply a vain tradition of men (cf Mark 7:8). Since it “gets results,” it is used. Through it many become converts to the “Christian religion.” The number of those from among such throngs whom God Himself has already chosen is known to Him, not ourselves. Such popular techniques are based upon the false idea which has well been termed, “decisional regeneration.”
However, such presentations are not faithful ones. For Christ is to be announced and proclaimed, not offered as a “great opportunity” (cp Acts 13:38,39). This is to be done so that, “whoever were set for life eonian” (Acts 13:48; cf Eph.1:3-6) may believe “through grace” (Acts 18:27; cf Rom.10:14,15). “Yahweh, our Elohim, You are the Setter of welfare on the hearthstones for us, For, moreover, You contrive all our doings for us” (Isa.26:12).THOSE WHO ARE CHOSEN
It is no part of our calling or service today to be crying out to men, “Repent! for near is the kingdom of the heavens!” (Matt.3:2); or, “Return and turn away from all your transgressions, And your depravity shall not become a stumbling block to you” (Ezekiel 18:30). Instead, in this present “day of salvation” (2 Cor.6:2), we are to dispense “the word of the conciliation,” “how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them” (2 Cor.5:18, 19). This tremendous change in the divine dealings during the present administration is “the world’s riches” (Rom.11:12) quite apart from their acceptance or appreciation of it.
The terrible judgments which are predicted for “the conclusion of the eon” (Matt.24:3) are yet to come at the close of this present age. They are for that era. But this present era is not that future era. The present administration, as a foretaste of God’s glorious plans for the new creation, is not concerned with such matters. It is utterly anachronistic to herald wrath in a day of conciliation.
The evangel for today is to be proclaimed on behalf of those who are chosen, that they also may be happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian (2 Tim.2: 10). Most of those who are naming the name of the Lord have never heard a clear presentation of the evangel of God. Instead they have been subjected to a great deal of confusion, in the midst of which, and in spite of all the error, “Christ crucified” was still proclaimed (cf 1 Cor.1:23). And, in such cases, God has used this marvelous message—not the contiguous “profane prattlings” which were also present (2 Tim.2:16)—to bring many of His people into the beginning of their life of faith. Therefore, “seeing that, by every method, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being announced, I am rejoicing in this also, and will be rejoicing nevertheless” (Phil.1:18).
The evangel is not to be conceived as the presentation of an investment opportunity, a “good deal,” through which all who are smart enough to recognize a good thing when they see it and willing to pay the price to “get in” may do so. One does not “join” the ecclesia (out-called ones) of God, as if it were a fraternal organization or some popular “church”: “Yet now God [the Placer] placed the members, each one of them, in the body according as He wills” (1 Cor.12:18).
The truth is, though we too were once terrible sinners, even as the rest, “when the kindness and fondness for humanity of our Saviour, God, made its advent,” it came to us “not for works which are wrought in righteousness which we do, but according to His mercy” (Titus 3:4,5a). God chose to be merciful to us, we did not put Him under obligation to be merciful. He decides to whom He will grant His mercy, and when He will do so. We did not qualify for it; therefore God was not obligated to give it.
Salvation is not afforded man at his own convenience, whenever he would care to take it to himself. Furthermore, there is no injustice with God in acting pu
rposefully, choosing some for certain blessings and positions which He does not grant to others. “For to Moses He is saying, ‘I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying’” (Rom.9:15). When God is merciful to us, it is only because He is also gracious to us (cp Exodus 33:19).
Most seem to conceive of one’s obtaining of the holy spirit in a way similar to that of Simon, the magician. Like him, they “infer that the gratuity of God is [somehow] to be acquired” (Acts 8:20). Whether one seeks to acquire the holy spirit through money, or faith, the principle is the same. God’s gifts are not for sale. Peter’s testimony to those who would represent salvation in Christ as an acquisition for which men may qualify, is, “Your heart is not straight in front of God. Repent, then, from this evil of yours” (Acts 8:21,22).
Let us rejoice in the realization that God is our Saviour!—“He saves us, through the bath of renascence and renewal of holy spirit, which He pours out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Saviour” (Titus 3:5b,6). This is so, “that, being justified in that One’s grace, we may be becoming enjoyers, in expectation, of the allotment of life eonian” (Titus 3:7).James Coram
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(all other rights reserved by copyright holder).God Bless, Jerry.
Hi Chosenone,Can you show me where it is at?
Mr. Ed J,Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the lord Jesus Christ.
You stated that this article is lengthy and that it refutes the concept of free will.
Having read the article, I am scratching my head wondering when he is going to start talking about free will.
He does a lot of talking on salvation. And seems that he recognizes that the conditions for salvation changes in the word of God. Ie, Adam and Eve had salvation, in one sense, until they sinned and then they lost it. Their condition was meant to keep their salvation.
There is no discussion on free will in your article at all. Nothing. Nada. Goose egg.
Salvation in our age of grace begins when we do Romans 10:9-10. When a person decides to “confess with your mouth the lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” It is your choice to do those two things or not do both things. Confessing with your mouth is not enough. Believing in your heart is not enough. If you can only muster up one or the other, you are not saved. You must decide to do both. It is your choice.
It is an exercise of your free will whether or not to meet the conditions of salvation or not to meet the conditions for salvation.
It is the exercise of your free will that empowers you to meet both conditions or not.
Did you actually read the article?
Or did you assume that the author was actually going to address the issues he said he would?
barley
Quote (barley @ July 20 2010,12:15) Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,11:20) Quote (chosenone @ July 19 2010,05:53) Here is a rather lengthly article on so-salled “free will”. His Achievement Are We
Part OneOUR SAVIOUR GOD
GOD ALONE is our Saviour. Through Isaiah, He declares, “I, I, Yahweh am El [God]! And there is no Saviour apart from Me” (Isa.43:11). He is the Subjector and the Saviour: “An El, just, and a Saviour. And none is there except Me” (Isa.45:21).
Our need for God is an all-encompassing one. We need Him “every hour,” continually, not merely upon occasion. For at all times we either need to be saved from sinful practices or to be preserved in the paths of righteousness.
The presence of God’s saving power is often unrecognized, even among those in whom it is operating extensively. Ignorance of divine grace is a primary cause of human ingratitude. Men are inordinately proud of their self-control, for they suppose it to be their own creation. They do not realize that self-control, along with all else that is virtuous and agreeable, is always a fruit of the spirit (Gal.5:23); it is never a work of the flesh.
It is a major step forward when the unbeliever finally turns to God, having discovered that he is not really self-sufficient after all. It is at least as great an advancement when the believer repudiates all confidence in the flesh, and begins to rely upon God alone.
Whenever we are faithful, it is true, in a relative sense, that thus we “save ourselves” (for example, from withdrawing from the faith; cf 1 Tim.4:1,16). But we only do this in His grace. Therefore boasting in man is debarred: “Toil I—yet not I but the grace of God which is with me” (1 Cor.15: 10).
Our actions are God’s channels; they are not a source, but a conduit. Any course of action which we may take which is essential to a goal, is the fruit, not the root of salvation. Though practical salvation is through our works, it is not out of our works. For grace is not out of works, and salvation is both in and by grace. “Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6). Should we be enabled to carry such marvelous salvation into effect in our lives, this will be so thanks to our Saviour, not ourselves: “For it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight” (Phil.2:13).
All that is faithful and pleasing to God is due in its entirety to His gracious provision and direction. A realization of this truth is essential to maturity and humility. For no one can walk humbly with his God who conceives of himself as the one who finally turns defeat into victory. Therefore, we must not boast of what we have “let” the Lord do in our lives. Submission to Him can never afford us an occasion for self-boasting, but only a further opportunity to thank God for His saving grace.
It wounds our self-respect to think that we might actually need such a gracious and powerful provision. And when we recognize God’s true grace, it cuts ever so deeply into our pride. Many are ready to assure us that such grace is neither given nor needed. We find such claims to be quite flattering; they make it easier for us to preserve our self-reliant attitudes and ways.
However, we will do well to consider the story of the gracious creditor and his two debtors, one of whom owed ten times more than the other. Since neither were able to pay, “he deals graciously with them both” (Luke 7:42). Though both were appreciative, it was the one “with whom he deals the more graciously” who was “loving him more” (Luke 7:42,43). Similarly, when God gives us an understanding and appreciation of the graciousness of His operations, both for us and in us, we are enabled to love Him more.
May we not, like Belshazzar, exalt ourselves over the Lord of the heavens, in Whose hand is our breath, and “for Whom” are all our paths (cf Dan.5:23). When we exalt ourselves, due to our failure to perceive God’s all-sufficient hand upon us, we fail to honor Him. When we take such an approach, our career can only be “weighed on the scales and found lacking” (cf Dan.5:27).TWO FUNDAMENTAL ERRORS
Most believers consider “free will” and “eternal punishment” to be foundational truth. However, a few consider these same concepts to be foundational error. Of course many among those on both sides of these questions have simply taken a position; most are not aware of the basic issues to be decided. Consequently, confusion is perpetuated, prejudice and ignorance prevail, and these important matters are never resolved.
We propose to examine many of the basic issues involved in these questions, such as faith, choice, foreknowledge, voluntary action, judgment and trials. The fulcrum point of our considerations will be God’s achievements through the death and resurrection of Christ. What is the scope of these achievements in our salvation and with respect to His ultimate purpose to become All in all?
The prevailing idea today is that God saves us (from “eternal punishment”) only after we first save ourselves from being disqualified for His alleged “gift.” While He wishes to assist us even in this, He will only do so if we are willing and cooperative. One must save himself from unwillingness. Finally, we are left on our own. When we need Him the most, He will do nothing. That is: God helps those who help themselves.
Though it is acknowledged that we cannot earn salvation, it is insisted that we still have to qualify for it! Such a claim is nonsensical, for “earn” and “qualify” are synonyms. The basic idea of compensation is common to both. For example: a successful salesman qualifies for a luxurious vacation by earning a sufficient number of bonus points.
The popular idea that we must qualify ourselves for salvation in order to escape being consigned to everlasting punishment is a repudiation of God’s grace. Besides, all power and ability come from God, Who alone is our gracious Saviour.
This is our theme throughout this study. The purpose for its writing is to make known this great truth. We are taking up the error of human free will first, and the error of everlasting punishment second.FAITH AND THE EVANGEL FOR TODAY
It is wonderful to know that “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (1 Tim.1:15), not merely to make it possible for sinners to be saved. Similarly, we were not conciliated to God through accepting Christ or believing in the death of His Son. Instead, “We were conciliated to God through the death of His Son” (Rom.5:10). Likewise, Christ did not die in order that our sins might be forgiven; for He would never need to die for God merely to forgive us. He died that God as our judge, might have a just basis for justifying us or declaring us righteous. He “was given up because of our offenses, and was roused because of our justifying” (Rom.4:25). We are “now justified in His blood” (Rom.5:9).
But this is only so “through Jesus Christ’s faith” (Rom.3:22), “the faith of Jesus” (Rom.3:26). This is what such passages as these say; they speak of Christ’s own faith, not of our faith in Christ. They no more mean our faith in Him, than the words “the faith of Abraham” (Rom.4:16) mean our faith in Abraham! It is incorrect to translate them otherwise. To do so is to interpret, not t
ranslate. But since men are so confident that they are saved (from “Hell”) through “accepting Christ,” they assume that any reference to faith in association with Christ must be their own, instead of His. They think of their own faith as what keeps them from being lost. Such a conception of “grace” is perfectly indistinguishable from a reward.THUS YOU BELIEVE
Faith is essential to our salvation, but it is not a “requirement.” It is “essential” only in the sense that there are none in Christ but those who have faith in Him; they all genuinely believe that He died and rose (cf 1 Thess.4:14). All such ones are brethren in Christ. For God gives all His people at least some faith in at least this much. God is especially (though not exclusively) the Saviour of believers (1 Tim.4:10); it is these chosen ones who alone are “happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian” (2 Tim.2:10).
Why did the Corinthians believe? Was it merely the result of a “free will” decision of their own, or was it because, like Paul, God’s powerful grace was with them in a wonderful way? To all who have eyes to see, Paul’s words concerning this matter are unmistakable:
Paul had been the foremost of sinners (1 Tim.1:15). For beyond all others, he had committed much contrary to the name of Jesus the Nazarene, and punished and persecuted the ecclesia of God exceedingly (1 Cor.15:9; Acts 9:1; 26:9-11). Therefore it required “all His patience” (1 Tim.1:16) for the Lord to deal with this terrible sinner and to graciously save him. Many years later, when writing his Ephesian epistle, Paul painfully recalled those evil days, and in light of them could only speak of himself as “less than the least of all saints” (Eph.3:8).
“Yet, in the grace of God I am what I am [now]” (1 Cor.15: 10a), Paul insists to the Corinthians. For the Lord had met him on the Damascus road. The faith and love of Christ Jesus came over him and changed him from being the foremost sinner among men into the faithful and obedient apostle to the nations, of whom we are to become imitators (1 Cor.11:1; Phil.3:17).
Paul accounts for the faith of the Corinthians (even as the heralding of the twelve, cf 1 Cor.12:5) on this same ground: “His grace, which is in me, did not come to be for naught, but more exceedingly than all of them toil I—yet not I, but the grace of God which is with me. Then, whether I or they, thus [houtos, THE-SAME-AS] we are heralding and thus you believe” (1 Cor.15: 10b, 11).
The grace of God is effective, not merely potential. Faith is God’s gracious gift to us, with which He overwhelms our former unbelief, imparting to all whom He calls a measure thereof, whenever it delights Him to unveil His Son in us (cf Phil.1:29; 1 Tim.1:13-16; Rom.12:3; Gal. 1:15,16). This proves that salvation is not a refusable offer, and that faith is not spiritual currency. Faith is not meritorious. Accepting Christ is not a transaction. Salvation is a gracious gift, not a covenant or agreement. Those who are yet of a mind to “strike a deal” with God, are in no mood to acknowledge their need of a Saviour.CHRIST PAID ALL
Salvation in Christ is not “the greatest bargain in all the universe,” for it is not a bargain at all. It is neither cheap nor expensive. It is free. We need not be “willing to pay the price,” for there is no price to pay. Christ paid it all. He was made sin; God condemned sin in the flesh in the sacrifice of His Son (2 Cor.5:21; Rom.8:3).
Salvation is not a reward for having done the right thing, or for “meeting conditions.” As with Abraham (Rom.4:16-21), our faith reveals to us what is already true, concerning what God has promised. It gives us assurance.
“God, Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling,” has promised to glorify and conform to the image of His Son, all those whom He chose “in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian;” this evangel “now is being manifested” (2 Tim.1:9,10). “Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise” (Gal.4:28; cf Rom.9:9-11). This is the gospel—not some offer of a way to escape “Hell.”
The customary “invitation” or “altar call” of today is simply a vain tradition of men (cf Mark 7:8). Since it “gets results,” it is used. Through it many become converts to the “Christian religion.” The number of those from among such throngs whom God Himself has already chosen is known to Him, not ourselves. Such popular techniques are based upon the false idea which has well been termed, “decisional regeneration.”
However, such presentations are not faithful ones. For Christ is to be announced and proclaimed, not offered as a “great opportunity” (cp Acts 13:38,39). This is to be done so that, “whoever were set for life eonian” (Acts 13:48; cf Eph.1:3-6) may believe “through grace” (Acts 18:27; cf Rom.10:14,15). “Yahweh, our Elohim, You are the Setter of welfare on the hearthstones for us, For, moreover, You contrive all our doings for us” (Isa.26:12).THOSE WHO ARE CHOSEN
It is no part of our calling or service today to be crying out to men, “Repent! for near is the kingdom of the heavens!” (Matt.3:2); or, “Return and turn away from all your transgressions, And your depravity shall not become a stumbling block to you” (Ezekiel 18:30). Instead, in this present “day of salvation” (2 Cor.6:2), we are to dispense “the word of the conciliation,” “how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them” (2 Cor.5:18, 19). This tremendous change in the divine dealings during the present administration is “the world’s riches” (Rom.11:12) quite apart from their acceptance or appreciation of it.
The terrible judgments which are predicted for “the conclusion of the eon” (Matt.24:3) are yet to come at the close of this present age. They are for that era. But this present era is not that future era. The present administration, as a foretaste of God’s glorious plans for the new creation, is not concerned with such matters. It is utterly anachronistic to herald wrath in a day of conciliation.
The evangel for today is to be proclaimed on behalf of those who are chosen, that they also may be happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian (2 Tim.2: 10). Most of those who are naming the name of the Lord have never heard a clear presentation of the evangel of God. Instead they have been subjected to a great deal of confusion, in the midst of which, and in spite of all the error, “Christ crucified” was still proclaimed (cf 1 Cor.1:23). And, in such cases, God has used this marvelous message—not the contiguous “profane prattlings” which were also present (2 Tim.2:16)—to bring many of His people into the beginning of their life of faith. Therefore, “seeing that, by every method, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being announced, I am rejoicing in this also, and will be rejoicing nevertheless” (Phil.1:18).
The evangel is not to be conceived as the presentation of an investment opportunity, a “good deal,” through which all who are smart enough to recognize a good thing when they see it and willing to pay the price to “get in” may do so. One does not “join” the ecclesia (out-called ones) of God, as if it were a fraternal organization or some popular “church”: “Yet now God [the Placer] placed the members, each one of them, in the body according as He wills” (1 Cor.12:18).
The truth is, though we too were once terrible sinners, even as the rest, “when the kindness and fondness for humanity of our Saviour, God, made its advent,” it came to us “not for works which are wrought in righteousness which we do, but according to His mercy” (Titus 3:4,5a). God chose to be merciful to us, we did not put Him under obligation to be merciful. He decides to whom He will grant His mercy, and when He will do so. We did not qu
alify for it; therefore God was not obligated to give it.
Salvation is not afforded man at his own convenience, whenever he would care to take it to himself. Furthermore, there is no injustice with God in acting purposefully, choosing some for certain blessings and positions which He does not grant to others. “For to Moses He is saying, ‘I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying’” (Rom.9:15). When God is merciful to us, it is only because He is also gracious to us (cp Exodus 33:19).
Most seem to conceive of one’s obtaining of the holy spirit in a way similar to that of Simon, the magician. Like him, they “infer that the gratuity of God is [somehow] to be acquired” (Acts 8:20). Whether one seeks to acquire the holy spirit through money, or faith, the principle is the same. God’s gifts are not for sale. Peter’s testimony to those who would represent salvation in Christ as an acquisition for which men may qualify, is, “Your heart is not straight in front of God. Repent, then, from this evil of yours” (Acts 8:21,22).
Let us rejoice in the realization that God is our Saviour!—“He saves us, through the bath of renascence and renewal of holy spirit, which He pours out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Saviour” (Titus 3:5b,6). This is so, “that, being justified in that One’s grace, we may be becoming enjoyers, in expectation, of the allotment of life eonian” (Titus 3:7).James Coram
Copyright © Concordant Publishing Concern
15570 Knochaven Road, Santa Clarita, CA 91387, U.S.A. 661-252-2112This publication may be reproduced for personal use
(all other rights reserved by copyright holder).God Bless, Jerry.
Hi Chosenone,Can you show me where it is at?
Mr. Ed J,Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the lord Jesus Christ.
You stated that this article is lengthy and that it refutes the concept of free will.
Having read the article, I am scratching my head wondering when he is going to start talking about free will.
He does a lot of talking on salvation. And seems that he recognizes that the conditions for salvation changes in the word of God. Ie, Adam and Eve had salvation, in one sense, until they sinned and then they lost it. Their condition was meant to keep their salvation.
There is no discussion on free will in your article at all. Nothing. Nada. Goose egg.
Salvation in our age of grace begins when we do Romans 10:9-10. When a person decides to “confess with your mouth the lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” It is your choice to do those two things or not do both things. Confessing with your mouth is not enough. Believing in your heart is not enough. If you can only muster up one or the other, you are not saved. You must decide to do both. It is your choice.
It is an exercise of your free will whether or not to meet the conditions of salvation or not to meet the conditions for salvation.
It is the exercise of your free will that empowers you to meet both conditions or not.
Did you actually read the article?
Or did you assume that the author was actually going to address the issues he said he would?
barley
Mr. Ed J,My apologies. I misread who posted the article.
Again. My apologies.
barley
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2010,01:27) barely…………I am going to slow this down. First there is (NO) scripture that says we have a free will (IN) us. Now the rem free will is to say it is a will that is (FREE) , So if we consider the word free attached to our wills, then that is to say our will are free of any influences of any kind, but a will by the very word itself shows it is (INFLUENCED) driven because it is simply the expression of our (DESIRES) . So to Say we Have a Free Will is and OXYMORON< because a will can not exist without desires and influence derived by some kind of Knowledge we have already acquired in the past.
Jesus said he would build His church, How?……….It was by the ROCK , that is the power of GOD to get into our minds and reveal truth to us , as GOD did to PETER and Peter responded to Jesus You are the Christ the Son of GOD, Jesus said Back (blessed) are you Simon Barjona because (now listen to this) did not reveal this unto you but my Father who is in Heave has revealed this unto you, then he went on to say an upon (THIS) Rock I will Build the Church. That rock was the power of GOD to get into our minds and show us truth.
You said You FREELY Chosen GOD to line yourself with Him through your Own Free will Choices. But Jesus said that is impossible to do, Because He said (NO MAN (CAN) COME UNTO ME. Without the FATHER DRAWING HIM. That is why we are saved BY GRACE and NOT of OURSELVES IT is a (GIFT) of GOD Least any should BOAST.
Our salvation is not a combination of Us and GOD it is a Work the GOD ALONE DOES. WE et (NO) Glory in the Process of our salvation.
You said , God Chose Pharaoh because His Heart was already Hardened, that simply is not true Brother, Scripture say God harden Pharaoh Heart. I simply believe what it plainly say, if it say God caused it then He caused it.
Bradely can't you see what you have fallen into , this false ideology of our own work as the saving decision in our lives, it is taking president over GOD and His saving Work , because you are limiting GOD'S Work to your (free will) acceptance, that still makes you the master of your destiny not GOD. NO WILL the is FREE.
That is why there are (NO) Scriptures that say we Have a Will that is FREE (IN) Us. Every thing you chose you chose from you preexisting knowledge and that Knowledge guides you thought and your will , Just as GOD Knowledge guides His thoughts and will also.
You are confusion our liberty to exercise our captivated or influenced Wills and being a Free Will (IN) us as Most do. Salvation is Not and exercise of our so called Free WILL, it is the very act and Power of GOD himself that saves despite ourselves.
Here is some terms to consider what it means…………………….Elect of GOD
Whom he foreknew he predestined to become son of GOD
Chosen before the foundations of the world
the son of man can do (NOTHING) of himself
The son of man came not to do His WILL but the Will of him who sent him
For you are (CREATED) unto good works
You did (NOT) Chose Me but I Chose you
God is the potter we are the clay, to (MAKE) of the same lump…..
God works (IN) us both to (WILL) and (DO) HIS good pleasure
On and on it goes with that shows it is (ALL) of GOD , and in all this not even (ONE) scripture that say a man has a Will that is FREE (IN) HIM. the term FREE WILL is and OXYMORON , simply put a will could (NOT) be a WILL is it were FREE, not our or GOD'S WILL is FREE, our Wills are the result of Knowledge Just like GOD Will is.One more thing braley Faith is Not from the self , it is Given BY GOD, “For He has given a measure of Faith unto every man”. He has given some more then others, But it still came from God. There is only one creator and Savior, and that is GOD the Father Alone. IMO
Hope this helped you better understand what i am saying brother.
peace and lvoe to you and yours……………………gene
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the lord Jesus Christ.Gene,
That is correct. There is no scripture that directly says that.
However, scripture has no meaning if we have no choice to believe or not to believe.
How can Joshua say, “Choose you this day whom ye shall serve” if we have no choice in the matter?
Why would God tell Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if they had no choice in the matter?
Gideon hesitated when he was told to fight. Gideon needed more information to decide, God gave him more info and Gideon decided to believe and obey God. Gideon made the right choice.
Why did God tell Moses to go back to Egypt to lead His people out if Moses had no choice in the matter?
Why would God tell us anything if we had no choice in the matter?
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego chose to not bow down to the golden image. They chose to revere God rather than an idol. They replied to Nebby, “we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.” Notice the word, will. They chose, by their own free wills, to not serve N's gods or his golden image. They decided by their freedom of will. All the facts were against them, but they chose truth, not facts. God is able to deliver, and deliver them He did.
Matthew 6:33, Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.
Who is to do the seeking? God? No, people. It is their choice as to whether to seek or not. If they do, all the things mentioned will be added unto them, if they choose not to seek, they will miss out on those blessings.
Peter walked on water. Why did he? He asked JC if he could and JC said yes. So Peter walked on the water. He got distracted, and JC had to help him, but Peter walked on the water. Peter decided that he wanted to, asked, got permission and then did it. Peter chose to do it.
Matthew 21:22, “And all things whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive”
What if you choose not to pray? You get nothing.
What if you pray without believing? You get nothing.
You must decide both to pray and to believe. It is your choice.
God does not shove it down your throat.Do me a favor. Think about a big, juicy cheese burger.
Did you picture it? Can you see the melted cheese overflowing the side of the burger? Do you like it with catsup? Onions? Did you see it like on TV?
Now think abou
t a flock of geese flying overhead in a bright blue sky. Really see it in your mind. How many geese are there? Can you count them?Did you do these things? Whether you did or not, is because you made a choice. It was your choice and your choice alone. I did not force you. I asked you, but I did not force you. Did God force you to think about it or not think about it? No. God will not force a cheese burger down your throat, any more than he would force a flock of geese down your throat.
You have free will… Yes, it can be influenced, if you let it. But you always have the choice of what you are going to think. You can think that I am an idiot or you can think that I am a believer. Either way, it is your choice.
Pharaoh hardened his own heart, God had Moses present the truth to Pharaoh and Pharaoh chose to reject God's message. Pharaoh hardened his own heart against God.
That is a Hebrew idiom. Rather than glorify the devil with successes. The Hebrew idiom speaks of God doing it. God never does evil. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. The idiom is called the idiom of permission. In essence, God permitted it to happen. God knew Pharaoh would harden his heart. God did not harden Pharaoh's heart. For a clearer example of this, read the first three chapters of Job. God permitted Satan to wreck Job's life. Why would God do that? Job 3:25 says, “For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.” Job's fears let the adversary ruin his life. No wonder God's message so often is “Fear not”.
Those who God foreknew, He predestinated.
The key word is foreknew. God already knew who would believe, so he marked them out beforehand.
God planned ahead for his believers. That, my friend, is love.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2010,18:01) Quote (t8 @ July 17 2010,16:12) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2010,03:00) T8………No one is saying we do not have a WILL (IN) Us we are saying that Will Is (NOT) a “FREE” Will, again you are confusing God allowing us Liberty to a point to exercise our Wills as Us having a “FREE” Will in us. that is the only point where are taking about here brother.
If we are not free to choose using our will, then tell me this: why does God judge us if we are not able to freely make choices and why does God bother to balance the forces against us, so we will be able to choose rightly? In other words, why does God bother to pour out his Spirit to raise a standard against the enemy?
T8………..Judgment is judgment and all things are judged by GOD, Good and Evil are things GOD Has created and Placed them before us , and we all eat from that tree so why would not GOD Judges us all, for our actions. God has already expressed His WILL right from the beginning , it was man who chose his OWN WILL wanting it to be “FREE” from GOD and He still claims a FREE WILL because that is what he wants. Judgment and condemnation are not the same things , Judgment is need by all in order to correct behavior. God has given man some Freedom to exercise His Desires in life but he will have to be judged for all he has done with His (influenced ) Choices , that does not mean man has a “FREE WILL” operating (IN) Him, even if GOD Allows Him Liberty to exercise His (INFLUENCED) Will. Can't you understand that brother.Why do you think Jesus said the son of Man came (NOT) to do (HIS) WILL but the will of him who sent Him , We all have Wills that is true ,but those wills are all influenced by many things acquired during our lives as we grow and developed and these influence our choices we make in life.
Man wanting a Will that is FREE is what caused his separation from GOD in the first place and it still does today. The issue is who's Will will be done Man or GOD'S. Both are influenced Will Even GOD'S. But one is going to have to give way to the other, because both are not going to exist in the future . There can only be (ONE) true master of the HOUSE. IMO
peace and love to you and yours brother………………….gene
Gene, free will is not a will that is free from God's will, but a will that is free to choose God's will or choose otherwise.We all know that we can choose to do God's will or our own. That is a no brainer. It is common knowledge that we are free to choose light or darkness.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 18 2010,05:29) Man down fall was His separation from God's Will. God does not ask us to obey Him He commands us to , the ten comandment were not the ten (if) you free wills decide to. God even envoked (FEAR).
Actually that made man's downfall possible. But it was also possible that we would choose to do God's will and therefore demonstrate that we love God by obeying him.If there is no choice there can be no love. And yes, providing a choice is risky, but love is the highest goal and it is worth it.
If we couldn't choose to follow God, then following him and loving God would be the result of a program in which case we would be a race of robots with a program called love that we need to run.
Gene, which of the following scenarios would give you the greater satisfaction.
1) Your wife loves you freely by her own choice;
2) Your wife loves you because of influences beyond her control have made her obey the mandate to love you.I would think that you would choose no1 and I believe that God gave us the choice to choose him or not for the same reason.
Quote (t8 @ July 20 2010,16:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 18 2010,05:29) Man down fall was His separation from God's Will. God does not ask us to obey Him He commands us to , the ten comandment were not the ten (if) you free wills decide to. God even envoked (FEAR).
Actually that made man's downfall possible. But it was also possible that we would choose to do God's will and therefore demonstrate that we love God by obeying him.If there is no choice there can be no love. And yes, providing a choice is risky, but love is the highest goal and it is worth it.
If we couldn't choose to follow God, then following him and loving God would be the result of a program in which case we would be a race of robots with a program called love that we need to run.
Gene, which of the following scenarios would give you the greater satisfaction.
1) Your wife loves you freely by her own choice;
2) Your wife loves you because of influences beyond her control have made her obey the mandate to love you.I would think that you would choose no1 and I believe that God gave us the choice to choose him or not for the same reason.
T8……….Man can not on His own Chose GOD , Not one God said Chose Him HE LOOK FOR (ONE) and no not even (ONE). Therefore he took it upon His own arm to being salvation. It is not within a man to direct His paths , Can you see it just is not possible for a man to come to the salvation Knowledge on His own. Not matter what you chose you will chose it based on your knowledge and understanding. You mind has to be given the (SPIRIT (INTELLECT) OF THE TRUTH in order for you to be able to even choose right from wrong and God's way.You said your wife loves you on her own is not true She loves you (BECAUSE) of your giving her respect and love from yourself. If you were to change She would probably leave you.
We are told We did not love GOD first but He Loved Us first and we reciprocate this Love to Him , We are drawn to God by His love for us and this causes us to love Him, the same works with you and your wife.
But because we are callused God Must first soften our hearts and this process causes us to become more like him. “FOR I WILL TAKE OUR OF YOU THE STONY HEART AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH” (SOFT HEART).
Brother we are (CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS) We did not freely chose to do good works or come to Jesus either. Nothing FREE about it , it is all a work of GOD alone. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Quote (barley @ July 20 2010,12:18) Quote (barley @ July 20 2010,12:15) Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,11:20) Quote (chosenone @ July 19 2010,05:53) Here is a rather lengthly article on so-salled “free will”. His Achievement Are We
Part OneOUR SAVIOUR GOD
GOD ALONE is our Saviour. Through Isaiah, He declares, “I, I, Yahweh am El [God]! And there is no Saviour apart from Me” (Isa.43:11). He is the Subjector and the Saviour: “An El, just, and a Saviour. And none is there except Me” (Isa.45:21).
Our need for God is an all-encompassing one. We need Him “every hour,” continually, not merely upon occasion. For at all times we either need to be saved from sinful practices or to be preserved in the paths of righteousness.
The presence of God’s saving power is often unrecognized, even among those in whom it is operating extensively. Ignorance of divine grace is a primary cause of human ingratitude. Men are inordinately proud of their self-control, for they suppose it to be their own creation. They do not realize that self-control, along with all else that is virtuous and agreeable, is always a fruit of the spirit (Gal.5:23); it is never a work of the flesh.
It is a major step forward when the unbeliever finally turns to God, having discovered that he is not really self-sufficient after all. It is at least as great an advancement when the believer repudiates all confidence in the flesh, and begins to rely upon God alone.
Whenever we are faithful, it is true, in a relative sense, that thus we “save ourselves” (for example, from withdrawing from the faith; cf 1 Tim.4:1,16). But we only do this in His grace. Therefore boasting in man is debarred: “Toil I—yet not I but the grace of God which is with me” (1 Cor.15: 10).
Our actions are God’s channels; they are not a source, but a conduit. Any course of action which we may take which is essential to a goal, is the fruit, not the root of salvation. Though practical salvation is through our works, it is not out of our works. For grace is not out of works, and salvation is both in and by grace. “Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6). Should we be enabled to carry such marvelous salvation into effect in our lives, this will be so thanks to our Saviour, not ourselves: “For it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight” (Phil.2:13).
All that is faithful and pleasing to God is due in its entirety to His gracious provision and direction. A realization of this truth is essential to maturity and humility. For no one can walk humbly with his God who conceives of himself as the one who finally turns defeat into victory. Therefore, we must not boast of what we have “let” the Lord do in our lives. Submission to Him can never afford us an occasion for self-boasting, but only a further opportunity to thank God for His saving grace.
It wounds our self-respect to think that we might actually need such a gracious and powerful provision. And when we recognize God’s true grace, it cuts ever so deeply into our pride. Many are ready to assure us that such grace is neither given nor needed. We find such claims to be quite flattering; they make it easier for us to preserve our self-reliant attitudes and ways.
However, we will do well to consider the story of the gracious creditor and his two debtors, one of whom owed ten times more than the other. Since neither were able to pay, “he deals graciously with them both” (Luke 7:42). Though both were appreciative, it was the one “with whom he deals the more graciously” who was “loving him more” (Luke 7:42,43). Similarly, when God gives us an understanding and appreciation of the graciousness of His operations, both for us and in us, we are enabled to love Him more.
May we not, like Belshazzar, exalt ourselves over the Lord of the heavens, in Whose hand is our breath, and “for Whom” are all our paths (cf Dan.5:23). When we exalt ourselves, due to our failure to perceive God’s all-sufficient hand upon us, we fail to honor Him. When we take such an approach, our career can only be “weighed on the scales and found lacking” (cf Dan.5:27).TWO FUNDAMENTAL ERRORS
Most believers consider “free will” and “eternal punishment” to be foundational truth. However, a few consider these same concepts to be foundational error. Of course many among those on both sides of these questions have simply taken a position; most are not aware of the basic issues to be decided. Consequently, confusion is perpetuated, prejudice and ignorance prevail, and these important matters are never resolved.
We propose to examine many of the basic issues involved in these questions, such as faith, choice, foreknowledge, voluntary action, judgment and trials. The fulcrum point of our considerations will be God’s achievements through the death and resurrection of Christ. What is the scope of these achievements in our salvation and with respect to His ultimate purpose to become All in all?
The prevailing idea today is that God saves us (from “eternal punishment”) only after we first save ourselves from being disqualified for His alleged “gift.” While He wishes to assist us even in this, He will only do so if we are willing and cooperative. One must save himself from unwillingness. Finally, we are left on our own. When we need Him the most, He will do nothing. That is: God helps those who help themselves.
Though it is acknowledged that we cannot earn salvation, it is insisted that we still have to qualify for it! Such a claim is nonsensical, for “earn” and “qualify” are synonyms. The basic idea of compensation is common to both. For example: a successful salesman qualifies for a luxurious vacation by earning a sufficient number of bonus points.
The popular idea that we must qualify ourselves for salvation in order to escape being consigned to everlasting punishment is a repudiation of God’s grace. Besides, all power and ability come from God, Who alone is our gracious Saviour.
This is our theme throughout this study. The purpose for its writing is to make known this great truth. We are taking up the error of human free will first, and the error of everlasting punishment second.FAITH AND THE EVANGEL FOR TODAY
It is wonderful to know that “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (1 Tim.1:15), not merely to make it possible for sinners to be saved. Similarly, we were not conciliated to God through accepting Christ or believing in the death of His Son. Instead, “We were conciliated to God through the death of His Son” (Rom.5:10). Likewise, Christ did not die in order that our sins might be forgiven; for He would never need to die for God merely to forgive us. He died that God as our judge, might have a just basis for justifying us or declaring us righteous. He “was given up because of our offenses, and was roused because of our justifying” (Rom.4:25). We are “now justified in His blood” (Rom.5:9).
But this is only so “through Jesus Christ’s faith” (Rom.3:22), “the faith of Jesus” (Rom.3:26). This is what such passages as these say; they speak of Christ’s own faith, not of
our faith in Christ. They no more mean our faith in Him, than the words “the faith of Abraham” (Rom.4:16) mean our faith in Abraham! It is incorrect to translate them otherwise. To do so is to interpret, not translate. But since men are so confident that they are saved (from “Hell”) through “accepting Christ,” they assume that any reference to faith in association with Christ must be their own, instead of His. They think of their own faith as what keeps them from being lost. Such a conception of “grace” is perfectly indistinguishable from a reward.THUS YOU BELIEVE
Faith is essential to our salvation, but it is not a “requirement.” It is “essential” only in the sense that there are none in Christ but those who have faith in Him; they all genuinely believe that He died and rose (cf 1 Thess.4:14). All such ones are brethren in Christ. For God gives all His people at least some faith in at least this much. God is especially (though not exclusively) the Saviour of believers (1 Tim.4:10); it is these chosen ones who alone are “happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian” (2 Tim.2:10).
Why did the Corinthians believe? Was it merely the result of a “free will” decision of their own, or was it because, like Paul, God’s powerful grace was with them in a wonderful way? To all who have eyes to see, Paul’s words concerning this matter are unmistakable:
Paul had been the foremost of sinners (1 Tim.1:15). For beyond all others, he had committed much contrary to the name of Jesus the Nazarene, and punished and persecuted the ecclesia of God exceedingly (1 Cor.15:9; Acts 9:1; 26:9-11). Therefore it required “all His patience” (1 Tim.1:16) for the Lord to deal with this terrible sinner and to graciously save him. Many years later, when writing his Ephesian epistle, Paul painfully recalled those evil days, and in light of them could only speak of himself as “less than the least of all saints” (Eph.3:8).
“Yet, in the grace of God I am what I am [now]” (1 Cor.15: 10a), Paul insists to the Corinthians. For the Lord had met him on the Damascus road. The faith and love of Christ Jesus came over him and changed him from being the foremost sinner among men into the faithful and obedient apostle to the nations, of whom we are to become imitators (1 Cor.11:1; Phil.3:17).
Paul accounts for the faith of the Corinthians (even as the heralding of the twelve, cf 1 Cor.12:5) on this same ground: “His grace, which is in me, did not come to be for naught, but more exceedingly than all of them toil I—yet not I, but the grace of God which is with me. Then, whether I or they, thus [houtos, THE-SAME-AS] we are heralding and thus you believe” (1 Cor.15: 10b, 11).
The grace of God is effective, not merely potential. Faith is God’s gracious gift to us, with which He overwhelms our former unbelief, imparting to all whom He calls a measure thereof, whenever it delights Him to unveil His Son in us (cf Phil.1:29; 1 Tim.1:13-16; Rom.12:3; Gal. 1:15,16). This proves that salvation is not a refusable offer, and that faith is not spiritual currency. Faith is not meritorious. Accepting Christ is not a transaction. Salvation is a gracious gift, not a covenant or agreement. Those who are yet of a mind to “strike a deal” with God, are in no mood to acknowledge their need of a Saviour.CHRIST PAID ALL
Salvation in Christ is not “the greatest bargain in all the universe,” for it is not a bargain at all. It is neither cheap nor expensive. It is free. We need not be “willing to pay the price,” for there is no price to pay. Christ paid it all. He was made sin; God condemned sin in the flesh in the sacrifice of His Son (2 Cor.5:21; Rom.8:3).
Salvation is not a reward for having done the right thing, or for “meeting conditions.” As with Abraham (Rom.4:16-21), our faith reveals to us what is already true, concerning what God has promised. It gives us assurance.
“God, Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling,” has promised to glorify and conform to the image of His Son, all those whom He chose “in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian;” this evangel “now is being manifested” (2 Tim.1:9,10). “Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise” (Gal.4:28; cf Rom.9:9-11). This is the gospel—not some offer of a way to escape “Hell.”
The customary “invitation” or “altar call” of today is simply a vain tradition of men (cf Mark 7:8). Since it “gets results,” it is used. Through it many become converts to the “Christian religion.” The number of those from among such throngs whom God Himself has already chosen is known to Him, not ourselves. Such popular techniques are based upon the false idea which has well been termed, “decisional regeneration.”
However, such presentations are not faithful ones. For Christ is to be announced and proclaimed, not offered as a “great opportunity” (cp Acts 13:38,39). This is to be done so that, “whoever were set for life eonian” (Acts 13:48; cf Eph.1:3-6) may believe “through grace” (Acts 18:27; cf Rom.10:14,15). “Yahweh, our Elohim, You are the Setter of welfare on the hearthstones for us, For, moreover, You contrive all our doings for us” (Isa.26:12).THOSE WHO ARE CHOSEN
It is no part of our calling or service today to be crying out to men, “Repent! for near is the kingdom of the heavens!” (Matt.3:2); or, “Return and turn away from all your transgressions, And your depravity shall not become a stumbling block to you” (Ezekiel 18:30). Instead, in this present “day of salvation” (2 Cor.6:2), we are to dispense “the word of the conciliation,” “how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them” (2 Cor.5:18, 19). This tremendous change in the divine dealings during the present administration is “the world’s riches” (Rom.11:12) quite apart from their acceptance or appreciation of it.
The terrible judgments which are predicted for “the conclusion of the eon” (Matt.24:3) are yet to come at the close of this present age. They are for that era. But this present era is not that future era. The present administration, as a foretaste of God’s glorious plans for the new creation, is not concerned with such matters. It is utterly anachronistic to herald wrath in a day of conciliation.
The evangel for today is to be proclaimed on behalf of those who are chosen, that they also may be happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian (2 Tim.2: 10). Most of those who are naming the name of the Lord have never heard a clear presentation of the evangel of God. Instead they have been subjected to a great deal of confusion, in the midst of which, and in spite of all the error, “Christ crucified” was still proclaimed (cf 1 Cor.1:23). And, in such cases, God has used this marvelous message—not the contiguous “profane prattlings” which were also present (2 Tim.2:16)—to bring many of His people into the beginning of their life of faith. Therefore, “seeing that, by every method, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being announced, I am rejoicing in this also, and will be rejoicing nevertheless” (Phil.1:18).
The evangel is not to be conceived as the presentation of an investment opportunity, a “good deal,” through which all who are smart enough to recognize a good thing when they see it and willing to pay the price to “get in” may do so. One does not “join” the ecclesia (out-called ones) of God, as if it were a fraternal organization or some popular “church”: “Yet now God [the Placer] placed the members, each one of them, in the body according as He wills” (1 Cor.12:18).
The truth is, though we too were once terrible sinners, even as the rest, “when the kindness and fondness for humanity of our Saviour, God, made its advent,” it came to us “not for works which are wrought in righteousness which
we do, but according to His mercy” (Titus 3:4,5a). God chose to be merciful to us, we did not put Him under obligation to be merciful. He decides to whom He will grant His mercy, and when He will do so. We did not qualify for it; therefore God was not obligated to give it.
Salvation is not afforded man at his own convenience, whenever he would care to take it to himself. Furthermore, there is no injustice with God in acting purposefully, choosing some for certain blessings and positions which He does not grant to others. “For to Moses He is saying, ‘I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying’” (Rom.9:15). When God is merciful to us, it is only because He is also gracious to us (cp Exodus 33:19).
Most seem to conceive of one’s obtaining of the holy spirit in a way similar to that of Simon, the magician. Like him, they “infer that the gratuity of God is [somehow] to be acquired” (Acts 8:20). Whether one seeks to acquire the holy spirit through money, or faith, the principle is the same. God’s gifts are not for sale. Peter’s testimony to those who would represent salvation in Christ as an acquisition for which men may qualify, is, “Your heart is not straight in front of God. Repent, then, from this evil of yours” (Acts 8:21,22).
Let us rejoice in the realization that God is our Saviour!—“He saves us, through the bath of renascence and renewal of holy spirit, which He pours out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Saviour” (Titus 3:5b,6). This is so, “that, being justified in that One’s grace, we may be becoming enjoyers, in expectation, of the allotment of life eonian” (Titus 3:7).James Coram
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(all other rights reserved by copyright holder).God Bless, Jerry.
Hi Chosenone,Can you show me where it is at?
Mr. Ed J,Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the lord Jesus Christ.
You stated that this article is lengthy and that it refutes the concept of free will.
Having read the article, I am scratching my head wondering when he is going to start talking about free will.
He does a lot of talking on salvation. And seems that he recognizes that the conditions for salvation changes in the word of God. Ie, Adam and Eve had salvation, in one sense, until they sinned and then they lost it. Their condition was meant to keep their salvation.
There is no discussion on free will in your article at all. Nothing. Nada. Goose egg.
Salvation in our age of grace begins when we do Romans 10:9-10. When a person decides to “confess with your mouth the lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” It is your choice to do those two things or not do both things. Confessing with your mouth is not enough. Believing in your heart is not enough. If you can only muster up one or the other, you are not saved. You must decide to do both. It is your choice.
It is an exercise of your free will whether or not to meet the conditions of salvation or not to meet the conditions for salvation.
It is the exercise of your free will that empowers you to meet both conditions or not.
Did you actually read the article?
Or did you assume that the author was actually going to address the issues he said he would?
barley
Mr. Ed J,My apologies. I misread who posted the article.
Again. My apologies.
barley
Hi Barley,Thank you, but I don't sweat the small stuff.
I agree, Jerry should show where it is, because I didn't see it either!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgI think there is a lot of semantics going on here. We live in God's creation. We live and function here. we make decisions while living here. because this is God's creation we cannot avoid some form of influince from God. We choose not to jump off a ten story building because in God's creation there is gravity. In that sense there is no free will. However we do have free will within perameters of God's creation. the point is will we work with God in the creation that he has placed us in or will we resist working with him. this in fact is the Hebrew definition of faith, to work with God and support his plan for ourselves and others.
Quote (JustAskin @ July 21 2010,03:38) Martian,
!what!Write that again … In English!
It is very simple. Sorry you do not understand it.Quote (martian @ July 21 2010,03:32) I think there is a lot of semantics going on here. We live in God's creation. We live and function here. we make decisions while living here. because this is God's creation we cannot avoid some form of influince from God. We choose not to jump off a ten story building because in God's creation there is gravity. In that sense there is no free will. However we do have free will within perameters of God's creation. the point is will we work with God in the creation that he has placed us in or will we resist working with him. this in fact is the Hebrew definition of faith, to work with God and support his plan for ourselves and others.
Hi Martin,Thanks, and Good Post!
There most certainly is “Free Will”!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ July 21 2010,04:51) Quote (martian @ July 21 2010,03:32) I think there is a lot of semantics going on here. We live in God's creation. We live and function here. we make decisions while living here. because this is God's creation we cannot avoid some form of influince from God. We choose not to jump off a ten story building because in God's creation there is gravity. In that sense there is no free will. However we do have free will within perameters of God's creation. the point is will we work with God in the creation that he has placed us in or will we resist working with him. this in fact is the Hebrew definition of faith, to work with God and support his plan for ourselves and others.
Hi Martin,Thanks, and Good Post!
There most certainly is “Free Will”!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Glad you liked it. Might be my last post. I am tired of debating knuckle heads that would be better off in a Grade School.To all………..”All that is (in) the world the lust of the eyes , and the lust of the flesh and the Pride of life are (FROM) the world”. All these thing guide man will and his decisions and He could never by his captiated Will Chose God's way in a million years, So GOD must intervene in our lives through His Spirit and impart a new captivity , but first he remove the old and establishes a new one. Therefore it say He led captives , captive. Jesus first set the captives free, this frees there (worldly INFLUENCED Wills) and then leads then captive again by the spirit of God. 'WE ARE (CREATED) UNTO GOOD WORKS, a so-called Will “FREE WILL” has nothing to do with it, because no such Will exists not with GOD or man. IMO
peace and love to you all…………………………gene
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