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John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Wakeup, did the sentient PERSON Jesus (also known as “The Word”) say that HE had glory alongside his God before the world began?
Wakeup,
I've asked this question of you in so many threads now, perhaps you did finally answer it in one of them. Regardless, would you mind answering it here?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2012,10:41) Okay Georg, What is the answer?
Wakeup? What is your answer?
1Cr 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.1Cr 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
The fact that Paul mentions the sun, moon, and stars in verse 41, should make it clear, he is talking about spirit bodies when he says, celestial bodies in verse 40.
It should likewise be clear to say that a celestial, spirit body, is more glorious then a terrestrial, flesh body.
That is what Jesus was before he became one of us, spirit, what he was asking God was, that he would give him back the glory, spirit body, which he had before.Georg
Wakeup
ready wen you are ,
scriptures are saying that Christ preexisted his birth as a man,
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”
Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold togetherPr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole worldJN 6:51 “ I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only begotten Son.
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Jn 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Jn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.those verses will be a start or base for the discussion ,
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2012,03:12) John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Wakeup, did the sentient PERSON Jesus (also known as “The Word”) say that HE had glory alongside his God before the world began?
Hi MikeWakeup said he already explained it.
I guess he doesn't want to explain it all over again?
I'm sure he'll change his mind
in the meantimeThis is the WORD speaking through Jesus.
go to the next verse
John 17:2 As thou hast given HIM power over all flesh, that HE should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given HIM
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, they they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent
THIS IS THE WORD SPEAKING THROUGH CHRIST
JESUS SPEAKING NOW THROUGH THE WORD
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth. I have finished the work which thou gavest me to doJohn 17:5 And now oh Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was (AS THE WORD)
IN THE BEGINNING
HE WAS THE WORD REMEMBER?.
The Word was always with God
Not the MAN Jesus Christ,
but THE WORD.
Spirit.
but that is irrelevant to God
for he can change his WORD
into whatever he likes
for God TRANSFORMED his Spirit WORD
into FLESH thousands of years later
into the Man Jesus ChristTHE WORD CAN NOW SPEAK ON HIS OWN
HAS HIS OWN AUTHORITY
OWN IDENTITY
HAS A NAME
IS ENTRUSTED WITH HIS FATHERS WILL
IN TOTAL HARMONY WITH THE FATHER
The WORD always remembers
being with the Father
Because the Word never left his side
but was TRANSFORMEDQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2012,13:24) Wakeup, I've asked this question of you in so many threads now, perhaps you did finally answer it in one of them. Regardless, would you mind answering it here?
Mikeb,brother.Do you desire occasion?
First of all, you must never forget that yesterday is today in Gods eyes,and you are quibbling about the time when Jesus was; USING OUR TIME,AND MANS KNOWLEDGE.
You and I know through scripture,that he(the Word–Jesus) was from everlasting.
God is from everlasting and his(God) Word was there with him from everlasting.Can you count everlasting with mans knowledge?
can you give us your calculations?We also must not forget,that since God was; his word was there with him,and his word is a LIVING WORD,because he created all things; so he is active.
GOD CAN TURN HIS WORD INTO AN ANGEL IF HE WANTS TO,AND HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM.AND HAVE GLORY WITH HIM.(whats our problem here?)
Gods word is not just one word;but it consists of many words.
Just like the holy bible; is Gods word,but it consist of many,many words.God is always in charge of his word; his word can never be in charge of God.
God also can translate his word into anything he chooses.
.
EXAMPLE; The tree of life in the garden,that tree of life was the word of God, tranlated by God into a tree.Melchisedek: he was the word,translated into a man.
NOW THE MAN JESUS; HE WAS THE WORD,BORN OUT OF A WOMAN, AND WAS MADE FLESH.
He can not just be translated, but he must be born like any human,for the suffering.He must be born of water.(flesh)
HE MUST BE A TRUE HUMAN(not a humanoid or some).HE MUST BE BORN LIKE HIS BRETHREN WERE; OUT OF A WOMAN.
He was MADE flesh at a certain DATE,ON EARTH ON OUR CALENDAR; THIS IS HOW WE RECORD THE DAYS AND YEARS.
Do you know how God measures his time?? Does he also go by the earth orbitting the sun? CAN YOU TELL ME?
God has glory with Jesus( as the word) from the beginning:
Even in the flesh, it does not changed the fact, that he is the word.Even if he was made in the form of a tree; he is still the word.When the word was in the flesh, he said ; And now O Father,glorify thou me with thine own self, with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.
SO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE,THE WORD OF GOD HAD GLORY WITH GOD FROM THE BEGINNING.BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. BEFORE HE WAS MADE FLESH.
IS JESUS THE WORD OF GOD OR IS HE NOT?
John16:27.For the father himself loveth you,because you have love me, and HAVE BELIEVED THAT I CAME–OUT–FROM GOD(Gods word came out from inside of God.)
VERSE 28. I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER:—–17:8. For I have given unto them the –WORDS– that thou gavest me; and they have received them,AND HAVE KNOWN SURELY THAT –I CAME OUT FROM THEE,–and they have believed that thou did send me.
PS.33:6 BY THE WORD OF THE LORD WERE THE HEAVENS MADE;AND ALL THE HOST OF THEM, BY–THE–BREATH–OF-HIS–MOUTH.
THE WORD = THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH.
LET THERE BE LIGHT; THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH,GIVING A COMMAND.and there was light.
THE FIG TREE DRIED UP; BY THE BREATH OF GODS MOUTH SPOKEN THROUGH JESUS.
GOD CALMS THE STORM; BY THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH SPOKEN THROUGH JESUS.
IN OLD DAYS GOD SPOKE –BY– THE PROPHETS.
TODAY GOD SPOKE –THROUGH– HIS SONConcerning WISDOM,IN PROVERBS:
PROVERBS IS SPEAKING ABOUT WISDOM.
Wis dom was from the beginning with god, for god created everything by his wisdom.(by his intelligents)In God is: light,his word,the spirit of truth,wisdom,and love.
GOD CREATED EVERYTHING BY HIS COMMAND(his word)
and that command comes from inside of him.psalms mentions that as his breath,so we can understand, in our language.
Time is irrelevant to God.BEFORE THE WORLDS WAS; JESUS WAS THERE ALREADY IN GODS EYES.IT IS TODAY WITH GOD.HIS WORD WAS FROM EVERLASTING.
SO, ARE WE STILL QUESTIONING THE WORD OF GOD?
WAKEUP.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 06 2012,04:47) Wakeup ready wen you are ,
scriptures are saying that Christ preexisted his birth as a man,
Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”
Jn 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold togetherPr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole worldJN 6:51 “ I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only begotten Son.
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Jn 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Jn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.those verses will be a start or base for the discussion ,
Pierre
PierreYou need a good untampered bible
Quote
Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.should read like this
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared himWhere is says Son, it should never be changed, this is a big statement, and important
and this one
Quote
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.should read like this
And the Word was MADE flesh, and dwelt among us, (and, we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truthWhat bible is that you reading?
I'm starting to understand why we getting crossed wires sometimes
Throw that Bible away.
No good.
I suggest KJV
you will see the scriptures more clearlyJ42
Quote What bible is that you reading?
I'm starting to understand why we getting crossed wires sometimes
Throw that Bible away.
No good.
I suggest KJV
you will see the scriptures more clearlyso I have quoted scriptures to explain one thing but you carefully sneak trough it and find some thing so irrelevant to say ,I wander if you ever read the bible ,I mean reading the bible not in a year but almost night and day,so that you can remember something out of it ,
now to answer you ego ;I use about on a average 8 bible in two languages,and I have all written copies of them ,and have more like the KJV 1611,LXX
I have also four french versions , dictionaries,many I give away,
AND SO YOU HAVE NO CLUE TO THE SCRIPTURES I QUOTE RIGHT???
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 06 2012,14:23) J42 Quote What bible is that you reading?
I'm starting to understand why we getting crossed wires sometimes
Throw that Bible away.
No good.
I suggest KJV
you will see the scriptures more clearlyso I have quoted scriptures to explain one thing but you carefully sneak trough it and find some thing so irrelevant to say ,I wander if you ever read the bible ,I mean reading the bible not in a year but almost night and day,so that you can remember something out of it ,
now to answer you ego ;I use about on a average 8 bible in two languages,and I have all written copies of them ,and have more like the KJV 1611,LXX
I have also four french versions , dictionaries,many I give away,
AND SO YOU HAVE NO CLUE TO THE SCRIPTURES I QUOTE RIGHT???
Pierre
Hi PierreThose scriptures you quoted are good,
and are the word of God
but we need to understand THE WORD
and Jesus is that word
but he wasn't the man Jesus Christ in the beginning
in the same form he is in today
He was THE WORD
and THE WORD is EVERYTHING that comes out of Gods mouth
God's Word always had glory
for it came out of himself.
I am not denying that Jesus was with God in the beginning,
but he was THE WORD then.
So the scriptures are trueQuote (journey42 @ Feb. 07 2012,03:54) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 06 2012,14:23) J42 Quote What bible is that you reading?
I'm starting to understand why we getting crossed wires sometimes
Throw that Bible away.
No good.
I suggest KJV
you will see the scriptures more clearlyso I have quoted scriptures to explain one thing but you carefully sneak trough it and find some thing so irrelevant to say ,I wander if you ever read the bible ,I mean reading the bible not in a year but almost night and day,so that you can remember something out of it ,
now to answer you ego ;I use about on a average 8 bible in two languages,and I have all written copies of them ,and have more like the KJV 1611,LXX
I have also four french versions , dictionaries,many I give away,
AND SO YOU HAVE NO CLUE TO THE SCRIPTURES I QUOTE RIGHT???
Pierre
Hi PierreThose scriptures you quoted are good,
and are the word of God
but we need to understand THE WORD
and Jesus is that word
but he wasn't the man Jesus Christ in the beginning
in the same form he is in today
He was THE WORD
and THE WORD is EVERYTHING that comes out of Gods mouth
God's Word always had glory
for it came out of himself.
I am not denying that Jesus was with God in the beginning,
but he was THE WORD then.
So the scriptures are true
J42yes I was right you have no clue ,and you are just a MILL of words ,do you think that I can not see were you going ??
a honest believer comes with scriptures and show were the understanding lays,NOT WERE HE PERSONALLY THINK IT SHOULD BE those are OPINIONS,
so you are full of air,if you want to teach go to 8 years old kids,not to mature Christians or if you do then behave like one,
SCRIPTURES ARE THE RULES;INTERPRETATION WITHIN THE SCRIPTURES,NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS.Pierre
Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 05 2012,20:19) John 17:2 As thou hast given HIM power over all flesh, that HE should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given HIM John 17:3 And this is life eternal, they they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent
THIS IS THE WORD SPEAKING THROUGH CHRIST
So there are three individual beings involved here? There is God, His Son Jesus, AND His Son “the Word”?Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 05 2012,20:19) The Word was always with God
Not the MAN Jesus Christ,
but THE WORD.
So which one of them is “the Word of God” in Revelation 19:13?Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 05 2012,20:19) God TRANSFORMED his Spirit WORD
into FLESH thousands of years later
into the Man Jesus ChristTHE WORD CAN NOW SPEAK ON HIS OWN
How is it that John 17:5 was the Word speaking THROUGH Jesus if, like you say, the Word had been TRANSFORMED INTO Jesus?Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 05 2012,20:23) When the word was in the flesh, he said ; And now O Father,glorify thou me with thine own self, with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. SO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE,THE WORD OF GOD HAD GLORY WITH GOD FROM THE BEGINNING.BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. BEFORE HE WAS MADE FLESH.
IS JESUS THE WORD OF GOD OR IS HE NOT?
Well,The problem is that the sentient person JESUS said those words. And Jesus is the SON OF God, whom God BEGOT before the ages.
Jesus' ORIGINS were from ancient days (Micah 5:2), and he was the beginning of the creation by God. (Rev 3:14)
So while I agree that Jesus is, was, and always will be God's main spokesman (hence, “The Word of God”), he also had a beginning.
The universe was made through the SON OF God (Heb 1:2), proving that Jesus, as the SON OF God, was there when it was made.
All things came into being through the SON OF God (Col 1:16), again proving that the SON OF God was there before all other things.
Are you starting to see the pattern? The Word didn't “use to be God, and then became God's Son”. Jesus has ALWAYS been both God's Word AND God's Son (at least ever since God begot him).
This is good though, because we are finally discussing this – which is all I was ever after anyway.
Hi Mike,
Hope you don't mind if i join in for a bit, i think i might be able to help interpret what both Journey and Wakeup are saying…or at least, attempt to with my understanding?
God created the Man Jesus by His spoken Word.
Jesus never existed before until this moment…not YET..
And this Man was created with His own soul just like us.
And when He was created, God put an essence of His word, which is spirit, within Jesus, to grow along with His own soul.
And that word was mixing with Jesus' own soul, grafting…and like a graft of two species of plant, there is a point where the grafting can be reversed, and a point where the reversing is impossible.
Now, that essence was growing within Jesus, that other spirit, so Jesus increased in spirit and wisdom as He aged, learning from that spirit within Him.
And that essence had no limit to “its” growth within Him, unlike the “cap” the rest of us get…the measure we get.
And when Jesus bore the sins of the world on the cross,
that word was removed from within Him.
For the grafting was not yet completed..and that word went back to God.And Jesus cried out when this word departed from Him, cried out from His own soul now bereft of that word which was in Him from birth. That word that had direct access to the Father, that came from within the Father.
And when His Father raised Him from the dead,
that word was reunited with Jesus,
and it was at this point that God completed the grafting process of binding that word with Jesus' own soul that was risen.
Being born again.And now that that word was bound with Jesus' soul, a permanent binding took place of the word and that mans soul, by the hand/doing of the Father.
and since the two became one, the word, now with added “DNA”, that word can now be considered a Son, for that word now has added “DNA” making “it” unique from what “it” was before.
At this point, now imagine a loop…
Because now that Jesus became one with that word, and since the two are now one, that word at this point, is no longer just that pure word that came from out of the Father.
And Jesus' soul is no longer just Jesus' soul.
For the two are now one.
The spirit of the Father IN Jesus, and since that spirit came from within God, as did Jesus' soul, Jesus too is IN the Father.
For that is where all things came from anyway.
And this is why God is IN us too. And we IN Him.Which means, since they are now one, everything that that word did, even before the man Jesus was created, Jesus did too…
because the two are now one…and everything that Jesus did, the word did too..
So now we have a loop, a loop which spins both forward and reverse throughout “time”.
A loop, just as if you became one with Noah, everything Noah would have done, you now would have too, literally, and vice versa…it would be your loop.
And even though there was a point where you and Noah were separate, even by thousands of years, at your joining, when you both became one, that separation now never existed, neither did that time separation..like an open circle now joined.
So now you were Noah all along…and he was you.
Which means you built the ark after all (Jesus created everything after all) etc…
Hope that helps…
Cheers Mike.Quote (journey42 @ Feb. 06 2012,20:54) Those scriptures you quoted are good,
and are the word of God
but we need to understand THE WORD
and Jesus is that word
but he wasn't the man Jesus Christ in the beginning
in the same form he is in today
He was THE WORD
and THE WORD is EVERYTHING that comes out of Gods mouth
God's Word always had glory
for it came out of himself.
I am not denying that Jesus was with God in the beginning,
but he was THE WORD then.
So the scriptures are true
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:Do you have children? which one is your fist born?
Has he, or her, always existed with you from your beginning?
Rev 3:14 ¶ …These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
which of your children was the beginning of your family, creation?
Georg
Hi Devo,
Thanks for that post explaining how you understand things. It is not scripturally accurate, as we know from Heb 1:2 that the universe was created through the Son of God.
(It seems that you don't think Jesus was God's Son until he was born of Mary, right? So that doesn't fit.)
All things in heaven and on earth were created through the Son of God. (Col 1:13, 16)
All things were created through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 8:6)
And all things were created through the Word of God. (John 1:3)
Jesus is called “the Word of God” by the author of John 1:3. (Rev 19:13)
Are you seeing the pattern yet?
To Devo, Wakeup, and Journey:
What is needed in this discussion is not more lengthy posts explaining how your story all “fits together” in your minds. What is needed is for you guys to answer how all things could have been created through the Son of God (who was existing in the form of God before being made in the likeness of men) if the Son of God didn't even exist until he was born of Mary. Because, (and take especial note of this) not only were all things said to have come through the Word, but ALSO through God's only begotten SON.
I have a feeling that the standard translation of John 1:1 is behind all of this. People don't know how to understand “and the Word was God”, and so, knowing that Jesus is NOT God Himself, they have to come up with all kinds of ways to work this out in their heads.
But John 1:1 doesn't say “and the Word was God”. Perhaps we should move onto that scripture, because I believe the truth of 1:1 will help you all out.
peace,
mike
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