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T8, So your saying that what we see is more important than what what the Word of God says?
No. Read my post or posts again. Take your time and you won’t need to ask that question again.
Thanks for your post LU. My thinking was different views depending on location of the observer. If a person sees a perfect eclipse, then what does someone see when they are north of that and south of that. I will read your post closely as it looks on the outset to be the views you get in those locations. It is difficult finding this answer. And I think confusion creeps in when looking at 2D models of a 3D or 4D event.
LU, what I was trying to say was that the videos only show the moon and not the position of the sun. I wasn’t very clear about that, sorry.
With the moon on one side of the earth and the sun on the other how could the earth cast a shadow on the top of the moon?
That is what I would like to see in a video. The relationship of the sun, earth and moon as the eclipse occurs. The sun would have to be bellow the earth to cast a shadow on the top of the moon. Is that what is happening?
It seems that when any research is done the flat earth has to be used in order to get actual “real” results. At least as far as NASA and the governments of US and Russia are concerned. Why would that be?
Hi Dig4truth,
you asked:
With the moon on one side of the earth and the sun on the other how could the earth cast a shadow on the top of the moon?
My response:
Dig, keep in mind that the sun rays don’t just go to the right and left SIDE of the earth but the rays go towards the earth and beyond in every direction. The penumbra also goes completely around the umbra. No matter what direction the moon goes on its orbit towards its ecliptic plane, it is going to go through the penumbra and be fully inside the penumbra before going into the umbra which is where the moon gets really dark. Whenever you see a picture of a partial lunar eclipse of the first part of a full lunar eclipse, you will see the moon in the penumbra which will be the bright part and in the umbra which is the dark part.
This link below should be repeatable to give you an idea about the penumbra:
also:
The Functions of Shadows
Shadows are an important addition to the repertoire of techniques used to visualize three-dimensional objects in computer graphics. Simple shadows can be used to dissolve the perceptual effect of objects floating above the ground and they are far less expensive to compute and are more necessary for simple images than, for example, the accurate modeling of global illumination.
Shadows vary tremendously as a function of the lighting environment. They can be hard edged or soft edged and contain both an umbra and a penumbra area. The relative size of the umbra-penumbra is a function of the size and the shape of the light source and its distance from the object (see figure above). The umbra is that part of a shadow that is completely cut off from the light source, whereas the penumbra is an area that receives some light from the source. A penumbra surrounds an umbra and there is always a gradual change in intensity from a penumbra to an umbra. In computer graphics, if we are not modeling illumination sources, then we usually consider point light sources at large distances, and assume in the simplest case that objects produce umbrae with sharp edges. This is still only an approximation. Even although light from a large distance produces almost parallel rays, there is still light behind the object as a result of diffraction and the shadow grades off. This effect also varies over the distance a shadow is thrown. These effects, that determine the quality of a shadow, enable us to infer information concerning the nature of the light source and they are clearly important to us as human beings perceiving a three-dimensional environment. For example, the shadows that we see outdoors depend on the time of day and whether the sky is overcast or not.I hope this helps.
LU
Hi t8 (and all),
You’re welcome, t8. The answer to this top-down eclipse is super simple come to find out. You’re right in that a 2D model makes it harder to understand. In a top-down eclipse, the moon is going from 5 degrees above the ecliptic plane towards 5 degrees below the ecliptic plane from your perspective on the Southern Hemisphere. In that case, there will be the opposite view happening in the Northern Hemisphere, the people there will witness a bottom-up eclipse. Then visa versa on the whole thing when the moon travels from 5 degrees below the ecliptic plane to 5 degrees above, from the Southern Hemisphere perspective.
The total lunar eclipse happens when it is smack dab in the middle right at the ecliptic plane. That is when it is completely dark and within the umbra shadow of the earth. Before it goes into the umbra, it becomes fully within the penumbra which is a partial shadow and it receives some light from the sun which doesn’t cause a significant darkness so it looks rather subtle and unimpressive. The light on Mike’s top-down pictures is from the penumbra area which completely encapsulates it before it heads into the umbra.
The penumbra goes all around the umbra therefore, for a total lunar eclipse, the moon must pass through the penumbra to get to the umbra.
You are keen to note that it would look different from the opposite hemisphere. Again, what looks like a top-down eclipse from the Northern Hemisphere, appears bottom-up from the Southern Hemisphere. It is all about the angle that the moon enters its ecliptic plane and the hemisphere you are on. See this diagram:
Fig 2: orbital-plane of the moon with respect to the ecliptic plane.
Kathi, you certainly haven’t answered the top-down eclipse issue yet, and have even provided me with a great diagram by which I can show you in even another way. But great research, and thank you for that information and videos about yet another top down eclipse in 2007. I don’t have time to address the point right now, but I thought I would leave this brand new video from some God-fearing Christian Brothers for you and Gene to check out. It’s only 9 minutes long, and shows quite a few NASA CGI glitches – both old and new…
Mike,
you said:
But great research, and thank you for that information and videos about yet another top down eclipse in 2007.
You are welcome.
From what I can tell, for every top-down eclipse, there is a bottom-up eclipse from the opposite hemisphere. It is a normal eclipse. I could find LOTS of them. The reason you haven’t seen a lot is probably because of the age of the internet…it hasn’t been around longer than my kids generation. Also, digital cameras are not that old. Top-down total lunar eclipses have been around since the beginning of total lunar eclipses. To think that is an oddity shows a great lack of knowledge in total lunar eclipses. Thank you for the challenge, I’m smarter than before on eclipses in general. I think you have a mental block though that is keeping you from seeing this, Mike. Go watch a penumbral eclipse, learn about them and that will help you see what the full moon looks like completely within the penumbral shadow. There is not a significant difference than before it entered the penumbra shadow yet there is a slight difference.
To be fair LU, Mike gave a specific example of the eclipse from the northern hemisphere. In that example it doesn’t make a lot of sense that it would have eclipsed from the top down.
I do appreciate that you are researching this though.
Wait a minute, Kathi… are you telling me that you think your diagram shows a 5 degree variance from the ecliptic? From the top of the earth to the bottom represents 180 degrees, right? So how then can there be only 5 degrees between those red lines I drew?
I just watched this NASA video on lunar eclipses, and they do the same kind of thing. For example, at the 1:00, they’re saying we don’t get eclipses every month because of the 5 degree variance which keeps the moon from passing through the earth’s shadow all but a couple of times a year… but their video shows it passing through the earth’s shadow every month – as they’re saying it doesn’t. ???
And at the :31-:37 segment, they make it abundantly clear why we can’t see full moons during the daytime – although we do.
But anyway, despite all your hard work, (which we really appreciate) all you have shown is that on rare occasions, people at certain locations can see the moon eclipse from the top down. I had already listed 1-31-18 and 12-10-11. To those you have added a few more, so the list right now is…
1-31-18
12-10-11
8-28-07
6-4-93
4-24-86
12-30-82
1-30-72
And you have added some great footage of the 8-28-7 one – for which I humbly thank you and will use it when I re-do my eclipse video. But the bottom line is that we have actual footage of 3 of them over a span of 11 years, and CGI illustrations only for another 4 of them. That’s only seven top-down eclipses in 46 years. I don’t think 7 occasions in 46 years makes it a common occurrence, do you? Especially when you consider that we’ve had about 100 total eclipses during that same time span. So that right there shoots down your idea that people on one hemisphere will see it eclipse bottom-up, while those on the other hemisphere will see it eclipse top-down. Because if that was the case, we’d have footage of top-down eclipses for all 100 eclipses from 1972-2018, right? We wouldn’t have footage for only three, and CGI for another four, right?
While I have a lot more to say (like reiterating my penumbra/umbra point from earlier) but don’t have the time right now, let me just ask you to consider that cone-shaped umbra shadow that eclipses the moon when the moon passes through it. I’m going to take this timeanddate.com image, where the shadow is going of to the right, and spin the smallest point of the shadow directly towards us…
So in my image, we’re looking down through the tiny red point of the umbra, as it grows bigger and finally touches the blue circumference of the earth that is causing the cone-shaped shadow in the first place. (I agree that 2-D representations stink, but I put a small picture in the top right with the arrow indicating which way we’re looking. So it’s like you’re putting oil in your car with a funnel, but you have you have the funnel upside down.) All of the red X’s around the blue circle are people standing all around the earth – all of them with their feet touching the earth. (For some reason they’re doing jumping jacks and have no heads. 🙂 ) Okay, there is no way the umbra (or penumbra for that matter) can be anywhere but at their feet. The shadow of the earth cannot possibly be above their heads, as they are all standing at the terminator line, where light and dark meet on the earth. So because of that, there is no way the moon could eclipse from the top-down for ANY OF THEM in the heliocentric model. Do you understand that? As the moon passes into the shadow of the earth and begins to be eclipsed, the shadow it’s passing into is at the FEET of every single person on earth.
So if the moon passes my umbra from the top-down, the people at the top of the blue ball will see the shadow start on the bottom of the moon. But so will the people at the bottom of the ball. The people on the left will see it eclipse from the right to the left, and the people on the right will see it eclipse from the left to the right.
And if the moon passes my umbra from left to right, the people on the top will see the moon eclipse from left to right, the people on the bottom will see it eclipse from right to left. The people on the left and the right will see it eclipse from the bottom up.
And the same principles will apply to all people on the dark side of the earth, in the middle of the umbra looking up at the moon. It will depend upon which quarter of the blue circle earth they’re standing, and which direction the moon passes through the shadow – but none of them will see the part of the moon that’s IN the shadow be light, while the part OUT OF the shadow is being eclipsed.
Anyway, it’s bed time and I haven’t even had dinner yet, so I’m going to leave you with what D4T just pointed out…
- Yes, there are top-down eclipses.
- Yes, during these top-down eclipses, people at other parts of the world see the same moon eclipsing from left to right, right to left, or bottom-up.
- But no, none of the information you have produced has EXPLAINED why ANYBODY – ANYWHERE on earth at ANY time – can see the moon eclipse from the top-down.
- Furthermore, I am talking about a very specific circumstance… when the sun is about to rise in the east behind me (or some other witness), and the moon is about to set in the west in front of me. In those specific cases, the moon is passing into the earth’s shadow from the bottom up (from our perspective) as it “sets” in front of us. And in those specific cases, the bottom of the moon (from our perspective) absolutely MUST enter the shadow of the earth first. And so in those specific cases, the eclipse MUST occur from the bottom of the moon (from our perspective) to the top of the moon. It cannot possibly be that, while the moon is still fully lit, the top of it (from our perspective) can catch a shadow from the earth, while the bottom remains lit up.
So thanks for all your hard work, as you have caused me to delve even deeper and find some other problems that I hadn’t even considered. (I’ll bring those up later.) But please forget about every other eclipse that has ever occurred – and focus only on the three we have footage of where the moon eclipses from the top down while entering the shadow of the earth from the bottom up.
Hi MIke,
Have you had your dinner yet? Poor guy, you are working so much and then you come on here spending hours trying to “help” us. You want to defend God’s word and that is admirable. Honestly Mike, I understand why the moon eclipses from the top down and from the bottom up with just looking into it during these last few days. This really is so common for both cases and if I spent the time on timeanddate.com I could find so many instances of both types, bottom-up, and top-down. Maybe I don’t understand what you are looking at and the problem you have with it.
Could you give me a link to your most perplexing eclipse and I will focus on that to try to help you see what I see?
Mike, your question here:
are you telling me that you think your diagram shows a 5 degree variance from the ecliptic? From the top of the earth to the bottom represents 180 degrees, right? So how then can there be only 5 degrees between those red lines I drew?
That question tells me that you do not understand the picture correctly. The moon has a path around the earth that is angled 5 degrees above the center of the globe to 5 degrees below center of the globe. That is a only a 10 degree total difference that the moon’s path has. When the moon is traveling from 5 degrees below the center of the globe, to 5 degrees above the center of the globe, it passes through the 0 degree point and it is at that point that a total eclipse can happen. It doesn’t always happen everytime that the moon reaches the 0 degree point though because it will not always be lined up to be directly behind the earth from the sun when it reaches 0 degrees.
Understand?
Here ya go Mike and Dig and t8,
Look at the moon’s path and note how it goes above the ecliptic plane and then below the ecliptic plane (the white circle) and then back again for a full circuit (which happens approximately during a 28 day period). The total lunar eclipses happen only when the moon meets the ecliptic plane AND happens to meet it when it is directly behind the earth from the sun. That is NOT a monthly occurrence when ALL those factors occur at once. When the moon passes the ecliptic plane going from below the ecliptic plane to above the ecliptic plane during a total lunar eclipse, the people on the Northern Hemisphere will view a top-down eclipse. The top of the moon will get really dark first because it is in the umbra. The bottom of the moon will still be light for a little while because it is in the penumbra. The sun just starting to come up from behind the observer doesn’t change that.
Hope that helps!Mike,
You said this regarding your jumping jack funnel circles:
Okay, there is no way the umbra (or penumbra for that matter) can be anywhere but at their feet. The shadow of the earth cannot possibly be above their heads, as they are all standing at the terminator line, where light and dark meet on the earth. So because of that, there is no way the moon could eclipse from the top-down for ANY OF THEM in the heliocentric model.
The shadow of the earth is not above their heads, true. The moon also is not above there heads. The moon during a lunar eclipse will be out in the distance in-between the dark side of the earth and the little red circle that you drew when fully eclipsed. The funnel that you drew is only the umbra, it is not the penumbra, btw. For the observers on the North half of the circle, when the path of the moon, as it enters the dark umbra, is coming from below the ecliptic plane to the ecliptic plane, the moon will eclipse from the top-down. The top of the moon will get dark first, the bottom of the moon will get dark last because it is still in the penumbra where it is much lighter. The bottom of the moon is not being lit at all by direct sunlight.
Kathi: The shadow of the earth is not above their heads, true. The moon also is not above there heads.
Now just think about that for a while… “The moon is also not above their heads…”
We see it up in the sky above us when it’s under our feet?
Mike….Why not spend your time and energy on the other threads here, would like you imputs brother. Go read some of Jodi’s recent posts and let us know what you think. Get involved into what really counts Mike.
Peace and love to you and yours. ….gene
Gene, this is very important, because the entirety of it tells us whether or not we can trust the authority of scripture over the stories of godless men. If God did NOT command the sun and the moon to stand still in the sky, then the Bible is false. If God did NOT create all things in six days, and make the sun on day four, then the Bible cannot be trusted in what it says. If the sun truly DOESN’T come out of its chambers and run a circuit from one end of the heaven to the other, then the Bible is nothing more than the imaginations of ancient goat herders, like the godless men you trust say it is. If the moon doesn’t give HER light, like many scriptures say, then the writers of scripture were wrong, and we have no compelling reason to believe them about anything else they say. If there WASN’T a real exodus, like we’re told by the godless clan you put your faith in, then yet again, scripture is just plain wrong. If Adam and Eve were NOT made male and female from the BEGINNING of creation, like Jesus told us, then Jesus is either ignorant on this matter, or a liar. And if the entire world was NOT flooded in Noah’s day, then once again, Jesus didn’t know what he was talking about. And if the stars WON’T fall to the earth as Jesus said they would, then he was wrong about that too.
I don’t know how else to put it, except for truthfully. I simply will not make excuses for the Bible, or try to twist things around to make it align with the stories we’ve been told by godless men – like big bang, deep time, stars before earth, evolution, heliocentrism, etc. I am ashamed at myself for ever doing so in the first place on a couple of issues, and I thank God for the flat earth movement, because it has caused millions to wake up to centuries of lies and put the Bible back as their ultimate authoritative source – not just on spiritual things, but on everything concerning us and the place we live. The flat earth movement has brought thousands of people BACK to Christ, because they can observe with their own eyes that what the Bible says has been the truth all along.
Gene, if I am wrong about the nature of our world, then so is the Bible. It’s really as simple as that. But I’m right. You know why? Because the Bible has been correct all along, and I am using it as my ultimate authority.
Mike,
you said:
Now just think about that for a while… “The moon is also not above their heads…”
We see it up in the sky above us when it’s under our feet?
Mike, Mike, Mike…the sun is behind the X-men, the moon is IN FRONT of the X-men. The stars are above their heads. If it wasn’t that way, there would be no eclipse.
Hi Mike,
All other searchers are godless and you are nobly fighting for truth.
Nonsense. Just another ego trip.
So Nick, what did you think of the government papers from two countries, NASA and contracted Universities using flat and stationary earth math to do research? Are they on an ego trip as well?
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