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Hey Mike, this is off topic but as you very well know there are many fossils now that are found with original soft tissue. This fact alone cancels out millions of years.
21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Looks a little different in our cameras and telescopes than in NASA’s…
I wonder why that is. Could it be our cameras and telescopes are not as powerful. I once saw Saturn and her rings through a decent telescope at an amatuer astronomy event where people were invited to a place with little light pollution to point the telescopes at different heavenly objects.
Mike, nice shot of Jupiter! I had my telescope out a week ago and saw a great shot of it as well! It’s amazing what you can do with the P-900!
It is not hard to see Mike and Dig4truth why we see things differently than NASA and other space agencies and satellite services. We have telescopes and microscopes in which to see distant things and to see the world of small things. Our natural range is obviously limited and these tools help us to see beyond that curtain. Now you may deny anything outside of what you can see in a telescope, but what about microscopes and the Quantum world. I guess you should equally deny that because we do not have powerful enough instruments to see atoms and electrons. Are these all fake too?
And this leads onto another point. You may say that because we are not the centre of creation because the earth goes around the sun that we are not important in that model, but I can debunk that with ease. We are made of atoms at least our bodies are and there is a whole universe inside each cell. That just shows we are wonderfully made. So if we zoom out at atom level, our own body will eventually come into view right? But why stop there, keep zooming and we are living on a planet and zoom again and the planet goes around the sun and if you zoom even more, we will live in a galaxy and so on. What this actually proves is God’s eternal nature and infinite knowledge and wisdom.
However, we are at the centre of God’s creation because the physical realm is not the important part, our consciousness or life is though. If consciousness is what creates this realm, then yes we are at the centre. You and I are both at the centre because we observe from our perspective. Of course God sees from his perspective so he is the centre. That is how consciousness works and this is the real universe. Without life, there is no universe, not even a dead universe exists without life.
The only thing that God saves from the old world and cosmos is our souls or life. He creates all anew and even our bodies are new. If the Earth was the most important thing and was the centre, then he would refurbish that and place a brand new dome on top.
t8, This is the scriptural reference you made.
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven
“Out of heaven” can easily mean from our heaven, as in where the birds fly and the judgment was certainly from the Lord. So I don’t see any contradiction in this verse.
Having said that, I do not reject a supernatural rain of brimstone. One reason is that the kind that is found in Sodom is unique. It is extremely pure. 98% pure sulphur unlike any found anywhere else.
Here is a video about finding the brimstone and the testing of it:
The testing begins around 4 1/2 minutes in. The whole video is about 12 minutes long.
“Out of heaven” can easily mean from our heaven, as in where the birds fly and the judgment was certainly from the Lord. So I don’t see any contradiction in this verse.
Exactly, so when we look through the atmosphere toward where the birds fly and we see stars, we are not told how far away these things are, but that we can see them in the heaven right and they are for seasons and times, and turned out to be useful for navigation. Further, these lights could easily have appeared on the fourth day, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t exist before then right? You are in the centre and look around you as far as you can see. You see a sky and a dome above. Or is it that you are in the centre from your perspective.
My point is the language of scripture is from our perspective and language. Think about scorpions with tails that hurt mankind for 6 months or locusts with the faces of men etc. A revelation is about giving us understanding right? So you use our understanding of things to give us a greater understanding. And the main frame work used is language. If there is no such word as ‘helicopter’ you might liken it to an insect with a man’s face embedded within right.
And knowledge shall increase and indeed it has increased beyond any measure ancient civilisation or antiquity could ever have imagined. It was prophesied, so we don’t have to disbelieve everything science discovers. Science is not against the Bible, it is the belief systems of many scientists that is. Data is tested and retested all the time. Conclusions is where bias creeps in.
Andrew: Ham is very much a young earth creationist, biblical literalist,even going so far as to teach there were dinosaurs aboard Noah’s ark, but apparently not literalist enough to accept geocentrism or the flat earth.
He is doing great work in his own right. Perhaps he’ll get there soon. We’ll all get there eventually.
Andrew: The astronaut does sound very sincere and authentic in what he says, but alas he must be a Satanist if he doesn’t line up with another Christians view.
I don’t imagine when Paul warned that Satan and his servants would masquerade as children of the light he meant that they’d make it easy for anyone to see the wolf hiding in the sheep’s clothing, do you? Not a very convincing con job if everyone can see you winking or crossing your fingers as you’re confessing your devotion to God and His Christ, right? Jesus implied that even some of the very elect would be fooled by these charades, so I’d expect them to seem extraordinarily sincere and authentic when telling their lies.
That being said, I don’t know the circumstances behind this particular astronaut – except that he can’t possibly have lived in a vessel that doesn’t exist, or orbited earth in a vacuum that doesn’t exist. Have you seen the movie Saturn 3? It is basically Hollywood’s version of how the Apollo hoax went down, and I suspect there is a great amount of truth in it. In that version, the honest astronauts believe until launch day that they are about to head to Mars. And when they’re told the mission is impossible, and that they’ll have to be hidden somewhere and stage the event in a studio so the nation won’t lose face, they are horrified at the thought and refuse to take part in it. That is until the lives of their families are threatened. So they reluctantly go through with the charade to fool the American public into believing that they are actually on a mission to Mars when they’ve never left earth’s surface. Now look at the first minute or so of the Apollo 13 press conference after returning from the moon…
Do these “greatest American heroes of all time” look like they’ve just successfully pulled off the next-to-impossible biggest achievement mankind has ever accomplished? What’s the body language tell you? What does it tell you that they couldn’t even remember whether or not they were able to see stars out there?
And finally, let me point out that I came by my flat earth belief from the observational evidence that we can see objects much farther away than would be possible if the earth was a ball 25,000 miles in circumference. Then it dawned on me how absurd it is to think a pressurized atmosphere could exist side by side with a vacuum 17 orders of magnitude stronger than the most powerful one we’ve been able to create on earth. And then I saw a lot of other observational evidence and experiments that clearly refuted the heliocentric model. I was a couple of weeks into this before I even realized that the Bible has been a flat earth book all along. So this didn’t start off with one Christian interpreting the scriptures differently than another one. It started off with irrefutable evidence anyone can see with their own eyes, and only later led me to scriptures that have been supporting that observational evidence all along.
Anthony: The term ‘heaven’ in Genesis 1:8 is shamyima and is the same Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:1 for ‘heaven’ but whereas in the first verse the word is in the plural form, in verse 8 it is in the singular form…
Maybe that scholar I mentioned to T8 earlier was on to something. The plural could indicated the whole shebang, while the singular refers to the air where the birds fly. I don’t know enough about it comment one way or the other.
Hi Dig4,
The firmament in some scriptures reads as we would read SKY.
And from the perspective of a tiny human creation on earth that seems reasonable.
In the sky we see birds, the sun and the moon and the stars.
Then we see it as an expanse and another as a vault, or as a structural foundation.
Nick, I guess that sounds ok. I can only really go by what the scriptures say.
Gen 1:14-15 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse (firmament) of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse (firmament) of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.
Its clear that the sun and moon are in the firmament.
Kathi: Can it be possible that the Light of God that pierced the darkness was the Son of God, the Firstborn of all creation?
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 22:5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
Like I said…just throwing that out there.
I agree with you, Nick and D4T that there existed light before the sun was created on day four… and there will again exist light without the sun in the new heaven and new earth. But to interpret the light from Gen 1:3 with Jesus sounds as if God created the heavens and the earth first (Gen 1:1), and then created Jesus afterwards. Because throughout the rest of the chapter, every time God says, “Let there be…”, he creates something that didn’t already exist. So it’s hard for me to imagine that “Let there be light” referred to a light (Jesus) that already existed. Whatever that particular light was, I believe it must be something God created right then to match the wording of the rest of the creation account.
T8, not according to these FE wacks, you could actually take them to the space station themselves to see the round world we live in orbit it, and they are so deluted they would think what they were seening was Hollywood prop of somekind.
The mind can invent anything, as witnessed on TV and the Movies. We need to remember what is said in 2ths2, because they recieve not the love of the truth, GOD WILL SEND UNTO THEM A DELUDING SPIRIT, INORDER FOR THEM TO BELIEVE A LIE. Now if God has deluded a person there is no way that person is even capable of seening the truth, because of the DELUDING WORK OF THE SPIRIT GOD HAS SENT TO THEN.
THEY WILL NOT NOR CAN THEY RECIEVE THE TRUTH. THEY WOULDN’T KNOW OR RECONIZE THE “TRUTH” IF IT BIT THEM ON THE FACE, THEY ARE SIMPLY BLINDED TO THE TRUTH. SO NOTHING CAN POSSIBELY CONVIENCE THEM, THIS WHOLE FE THING IS SIMPLY A WASTE OF TIME. IMO.
I HAVE KNOWN other CONSPIRACY THEOREST BEFORE AND THEY ARE TOTALLY BLIND TO THE TRUTH AND NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY ARE SHOWN THEY SIMPLY IGNORE IT, AND REMAIN IN THEIR IGNORANCE. I tell you these people will not admit any proofs presented to them, simply the blind leading the blind and they are not fallibg into the ditch they are in the ditch. This is all a deversion brought on by higher powers then you may realize. A simple destraction and waste of time.
Peaceand love to you and yours. ……gene
Hi Dig4,
God is not legalistic and can use poetic language when it suits Him
God is Sovereign and reveals truth as and however it suits Him.
We are tiny and insignificant and cannot make demands of Him.
Neither can we put His teachings through our logic filter.
We can never state that whatever information He has given us to work with is all there is.
Ed: Hi Mike,
One well two wells three wells all the same.
The sunlight coming through the clouds at different angles suggests a much closer sun
And that is the bottom line for me, Ed. There is no reason today to think the sun is millions of miles away, and therefore no reason for Eratosthenes to imagine it was 500,000 miles away in 250 BC, while the whole world thought it was close by, and the two shadows were exactly what one would expect from that situation. It’s like he saw a tree in the near distance. Everybody believed the tree was about 100 feet away. Eratosthenes knew he could throw a stone 100 feet. So he throws the stone at the tree and it hits it. Everybody is like, “Well, that’s exactly what we would expect from a tree 100 feet away and a guy who can throw a stone 100 feet.” But not Eratosthenes. No he just up and decides that the tree is really a million miles away, and therefore he can throw a stone one million miles. 😀
That’s how ridiculous this entire Eratosthenes story is to me. Anyway, the crepuscular rays are very interesting, but following the rays to the source would put the sun VERY close – like at the height of the clouds. But Jeran Campanella has just put out an idea that is still in the works, but sounds intriguing to me. Check it out if you get a chance, and let me know what you think.
Nick: Hi Mike,
A close firmament?
How close is the firmament and how thick is it?
Sorry dude. You have used up the allotted number of questions you are allowed to ask me without answering one of mine. When you tell me what reason you have for assuming the pillars of the earth are not real pillars supporting the earth, I will answer a question from you. Discussions are a give and take endeavor. You’ve shown you can take, now it’s time to see you give.
David: Hey all. I’ve been gone for a year or so. I was on the international space station, helping canadarm2 to get up and running. What have I missed?
Oh wow, mike is back too. Who are the current moderators? Man, my legs are still acting weird. Really really need to rebuild some muscles.
Hey David… too funny man! That zero G really plays havoc on the leg muscles, huh? 🙂 Good to hear from you, and welcome any honest and respectful thoughts you have on this geocentric/flat earth topic.
Dig4truth, when you think about it technically, the sun and moon are in your brain.
Light travels to your eyes and the brain converts the signal to a picture like a web browser interprets HTML code or an analogue TV converts the TV signals to a picture.
Everything is about perspective though and this is no different to the sun and moon in the firmananet. Vastly different distances, but from our perspective, in the same layer. That is because we actually see in 2D not 3D. If we saw in 3D we could see behind objects. God knows how we see, so he speaks to us from our perspective if he wants us to understand something. I kinda do that with my kids too. I speak about things in a way that they can understand. When they get older they grow in knowledge and it seems simple to them and so we speak as adults. Humanity as a whole also goes through this growth too.
We increase in knowledge and speak differently as a result. It doesn’t necessarily negate anything if we speak simply about things. I remember back in the 90s that speaking about the Internet required simple language because many people didn’t understand it. What is a domain name? A special name that you give each site. Now many understand that it is a unique naming address that actually resolves to an underlying IP address which is a unique number on the international network. Both explanations are still correct. Now we see the universe in a much more complex way with way more data. The sun and moon are still there in the same level of plane from our 2D view, but when you pull away from our view and give a more 3D experience, you see another dimension there that we largely could not see with the naked eye. A bit like Mike’s video of Jupiter. With the naked eye, you cannot see the moons I suspect.
Now take it another step forward and see it from God’s perspective. Okay we cannot do that, but creation is something he sees as finite because he is infinite. How does it all look like from his perspective one wonders. I would say radically different, yet still incorporating the truth of how we perceive things.
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