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Thanks for the video on those Christian astronauts. Interesting thing is, you never really hear about Christian Evolutionists, although knowing how crazy this world is there are probably a few.
Mike, why are there Christian astronauts who concur with the current scientific view? They have a testimony and it is not very polite to write them all off as liars and workers of deceit surely.
You’re welcom, t8. His name is Astronaut Barry E. Wilmore. Here is a write up on him if interested, its pretty impressive:
Hi Mike,
Scripture offers several possible spiritual meanings for the tree of life and the pillars.
But you are stuck in literalism and you have built your dogma around this unspiritual approach.
I’m sure most here have heard of *Wernher von Braun who was a German SS (Nazis) that developed the V2 rocket. And most probably know that at his death he had Psalm 19:1 referenced on his grave marker. This is interesting because Psalm 19:1 mentions the heavens declaring the glory of God and the firmament! Let’s take a look.
Psalm 19:1 The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2 Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words; Their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their utterances to the end of the world. In them He has placed a tent for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 Its rising is from one end of the heavens, And its circuit to the other end of them; And there is nothing hidden from its heat.NASB
Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
KJB
Certainly inspirational and informative. Notice that there is a firmament and that the sun has a circuit that it runs! There is no mention that the earth spins or rotates. Rather it is the sun that conveys the idea of motion. It is like a bridegroom coming out of its chamber.. It rejoices to run a race… It has a circuit.
Clearly it is the sun in motion and not the earth according to God’s Word. Any thoughts?
* In 1960, his (Wernher von Braun) rocket development center transferred from the Army to the newly established NASA and received a mandate to build the giant Saturn rockets. Accordingly, von Braun became director of NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center and the chief architect of the Saturn V launch vehicle..
- HI all; Then He said, “Hear now My words: if there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream. Not so with My servant Moses; he is faithful in all My house. I speak with him face to face, even plainly, and not in dark sayings; And he sees the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to spe9ak against My servant Moses?” Numbers 12:6-8
So God says that He spoke “
plainly
” to Moses, not in “dark sayings
,” that is, not in obscure language. That strongly suggests that we should not be looking for mysterious, hard-to-understand meanings in what Moses wrote. Rather, we should read Genesis as the straightforward history that it appears to be. The Bible is not meant to be a scientific textbook.It does not give us the physics of how he separated light and darkness, land and sea; it is not designed to tell us whether he created aquatic insects and land-dwelling insects on the same day. It does not tell us whether the stars existed before verse 16, or whether they simply became visible.
God began the creation by calling for light, and there is no other way for light to appear than instantly. Either it exists or it doesn’t . God can create how he chooses. God bless
Gene: Mike…..show me in the Gen 1-2 where there list any dates or times, only it says in the Beginning.
…there was evening and there was morning, one day.
…there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
…there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
And so on. But if there is any question as to the timing of Genesis 1, Exodus 20:8-11 should make it clear…
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
How many days? Six. What was made during those six days? The heaven and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them.
We aren’t to work for six thousand/million/billion year periods, and rest on the seventh thousand/million/billion year period, right? We work six literal 24 hour days, and rest on the seventh literal 24 hour day, right? And why did God command that? Because He created for six literal 24 hour days, and ceased from His labor on the seventh literal 24 hour day.
Genesis is clear about the length of these days by saying, “there was evening and there was morning, a first/second/third/etc. day”.
But you haven’t answered the question I asked you. I asserted that there is no way a person could come up with billions of years, a big bang, or a sun, moon and stars that existed before the earth from a straightforward reading of Genesis. And then I asked you where you got those ideas from. You haven’t answered yet.
D4T: Ed, I don’t see how something said to be made on day 4 could be made on day 1. That would be a clear contradiction.
I believe we must let Scripture speak for itself. If it says the sun was made on day 4 then that must mean what it says.
Amen. The sun, moon and all the stars on day four. The earth on day one.
Ed: Both of these ideas mentioned in day 4 refer BACK to the Earth’s rotation
as it correlates to the Heliocentric model of our solar-system as mentioned in day 1.Please address this point.
Nick: The creation of light and darkness in Gen 1.3 does not need a created sun.
You do not need the Sun to have light.
God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. 1jn 1.5
And at the end there will be no need for a sun because God gives light. Is 60.19, Rev 22.5
Well said, Nick. I will add that there is no scriptural mention of “the Earth’s rotation
as it correlates to the Heliocentric model of our solar-system” on day one or any other day mentioned in the entire Bible.D4T: The Word says the sun was created on day 4. <- (that’s a period)
which part of “day 4” do you have a presupposed aversion to?
And where did this aversion come from, since it clearly didn’t come from scripture? That’s the question I keep asking, but have yet to receive an answer. Let me start it out…
Yes, the Bible clearly says the sun, moon and stars were created on day four, but we know the Bible can’t be right about this because…
Ed or Gene, please finish the statement so we have an idea where you’re coming from.
D4T: “Heliocentric” refers to the sun. The sun wasn’t even created until day 4. How then can anything created on day 1 refer to the sun? And here is my burning question; where does it mention earth’s rotation? Spin, spinning, rotate, rotating, turn, turning, around and around, anything?
I wasn’t able to find any of those words, D. But I did find these…
1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm …”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable …”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “…who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast…”
D4T: Ed I can see you are seeking to investigate this matter… I enjoy your questions and your spirit of peace, the same with t8.
I couldn’t agree more.
To all…..Here is a literial Hebrew translation of Gen1:1-5, by a Hedrew scholar (Jeff Benner)
Gen 1:1–in the summit “Elohiym (powers) fattened the sky (heavens)and the land
Gen 1:2–and the land had existed in confusion and was unfilled and darkness was upon the face of the deep sea and the wind of “Elohiym (powers) was much fluttering upon the face of the waters.
3….and “Elohiym (powers)” said, light exist and light existed.
4….and “Elohiym (powers)” saw the light given that it was functional and “Elohim (powers)” made a seperation between the light and the darkness.
5….and “Elohiym (powers)” called out to the light day and to the darkness he called out night and the evening existed and morining existed one day.For the word (summit) in Hebrew we use the word, “beginning”, and for the word (functional) we use the word, “good”, and for the word (fattened) we us the word, “created”.
As you can see nothing mentioned about the one day untill verse 5. All the rest before verse 5 could have existed billions of year ago. God could have created the universe way befor his dealing with our planet earth. And when speaking of the “first day” that speaking of the earth, that does not mean the whole universe, but just the earth itself.
There are others who say the earth “became”, void and without form, to-hoo and bo-hoo, Gen 1:2, which suposely means the earth was previously a place of habation, and may explain why there are fossil that show a preexisting earth that somehow became “to-hoo and bo-hoo”, and God simply recreated things on this earth over again. We have many kinds and types of fossilized animals that seem to show that.
But none of this proves in any way the earth is flat. In fat if anything it proves the earth is round like the billions of other planets out in space are.
T8, anyone can simply find out “EASELY” from the internet, the thousands if not millions of different proofs showing the earth is indeed round, why get bogged down in this garbage?, a Wast of time, a deliberate distraction from spritural descussions, that really help people grow spritually, that is what counts not these worldly things.
Peace and love to you and yours …….gene
- Hi ✝ God separated light from darkness (verse 4). The literary sequence implies that darkness was separated only some time after light existed, but light is always separated from darkness; they are distinct by definition. Perhaps verse 4 is not intended to be sequentially precise. Or perhaps it means that, at the assumed point of observation, darkness finally came. Either way, this is not what the text says literally.
In verse 6 (day 2) God separated the waters. Where did this water come from? Genesis does not tell us. Verse 10 tells us that “earth” (same Hebrew word as in verse 1) is dry land; verse 8 tells us that space between waters is “heaven” (same Hebrew word as in verse 1). But it does not tell us when water was created, or how much water is above heaven. It is mentioned in verse 2 as simply existing. So here we see something else incomplete about the sequence. Something wasn’t meant to figure out that is just God way to choose how HE wants to do thing
- HE is God. God bless.
T8: What are the heavens that God created in the beginning if it doesn’t include stars? Anyone?
Some think the plural hassamayim is like the plural elohim – which can refer to one thing, or more than one. It’s called a plural of intensity, and it’s use in the Hebrew language is well documented. So it’s possible that the word so often translated as the plural “heavens” really refers to one “heaven”. But then you have Paul talking about being taken up to the third heaven. Scripture also speaks of the birds of the heavens, the stars of the heavens, God’s dwelling place in heaven, and even the firmament itself as heaven. And that Ezekiel verse I posted for Nick yesterday had winged creatures with their heads below a firmament and God’s throne sitting upon that firmament. Were they in the second heaven, while birds fly in the first, and God resides in the third? I don’t know. It would take some serious research to look into this – likely only to find out that we’re just not given enough information about it.
What we can decipher from scripture is that the heavens and the earth were formed of water, and then God created a firmament to separate part of that water from another part. (Gen 1:2,6; 2 Peter 3:5)
We could just as easily ask what are the waters that God created in the beginning if they don’t include fish? And the only answer we will find is that the heaven and the earth were formed from water on day one, stars were formed on day four, and fish on day five. Also take note of the significance stars are given here…
Gen 1:16
God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
It’s almost like the stars were an insignificant afterthought… “He made these two important lights, and oh, by the way, He also made the stars.” In the heliocentric model, the stars are the heroes, while our sun, moon, and earth are insignificant accidental byproducts in the grand scheme of things. Lawrence Krauss even said, “Forget Jesus, the stars died for you.” This is the caliber of men we’ve been blindly following all these years, guys.
“Thanks for the video on those Christian astronauts. Interesting thing is, you never really hear about Christian Evolutionists, although knowing how crazy this world is there are probably a few.
Mike, why are there Christian astronauts who concur with the current scientific view? They have a testimony and it is not very polite to write them all off as liars and workers of deceit surely.”Glad to see the Christian astronaut was brought back up , which was with Ken Ham on the video LU posted earlier in the thread. I noticed in that video that Ham was clear about asking the astronaut about the earth turning which says he’s probably been questioned by flat earthers and geocentrists as to that. Ham is very much a young earth creationist, biblical literalist,even going so far as to teach there were dinosaurs aboard Noah’s ark, but apparently not literalist enough to accept geocentrism or the flat earth. The astronaut does sound very sincere and authentic in what he says, but alas he must be a Satanist if he doesn’t line up with another Christians view. Christians constantly accusing other Christians of being deceived and in league with the devil is a hallmark of the Christian faith-it’s been that way from the very beginning as the NT and history plainly testify of.
As per Christian evolutionists they are legion though most wouldn’t refer to themselves that way. The idea is ” a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day” so each day of creation is or could be millions or billions of years to thus fit evolution into the bible.
- Hi all: The very first verse of the Bible tells us that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. The Hebrew word for heaven found here is shamayim. In biblical Hebrew, there is no specific word for our modern concept ‘universe’ so the combination of ‘heavens and earth’ is referring to the space and the matter God brought into existence on Day One. It pays to note that not all the universe was completed on Day One, as the sun, moon and stars were not created until Day Four.
Other passages that use this word for ‘heaven’ to refer to the space of the universe are Psalm 8:3 and Isaiah 13:10. Modern Hebrew has a word for Universe, Olam, but this word is not found in Genesis 1.
Another heaven that the Bible speaks about was created on Day Two of creation week. The term ‘heaven’ in Genesis 1:8 is shamyima and is the same Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:1 for ‘heaven’ but whereas in the first verse the word is in the plural form, in verse 8 it is in the singular form and refers to earth’s atmosphere (See also Deuteronomy 11:11 and I Kings 8:35). From these two examples we see that the word ‘heaven’ is referring to two different places: one is the general space for the universe and the other is more localised space of earth’s atmosphere. So what is the third heaven?
The Third Heaven
The only reference to the ‘third heaven’ in the Bible is found in 2 Corinthians 12:2 which says: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago – whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows – such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
ether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know – God knows – Since Paul never knew how this happened, then we can be quite sure that we can’t know. Nevertheless, the Bible sheds light :
– The word used for ‘caught up’ here is harpazo which is the same verb Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to speak of the Christians who are alive and remain until Christ’s coming and who will be ‘caught up’ to meet him in the air. Paul was suddenly caught up into the third heaven, but what is the third heaven? Paul, as a good Hebrew speaking Jewish scholar, would have known that the Old Testament described both the universe and atmosphere/sky (in our modern language) as heavens, but he also knew that the word heaven in the Old Testament was additionally used to describe the LORD’s dwelling place (1 Kings 8:30; Psalm. 33:13-14).
Paul parallels the third heaven with the word ‘paradise’ (v4) which is only used in two other New Testament passages (Luke 23:43; Rev 2:7). If you look at these two passages, the word ‘paradise’ is clearly equated with heaven as Jesus tells the the man who was crucified next to him “today you will be with me in paradise”. Elsewhere, Revelation 2:7 talks about the “tree of life” being in “the paradise of God” which can also be found in Revelation 22:2, 14, 19 and is equated with Heaven God Bless
Kathi:
I just saw this…unbelievable response from Mike regarding the Christian astronaut that lives on the space station for months at a time and said the earth is round.
Mike’s partial post:
miia: Hey LU, I saw that video of the Christian who went to space, but quickly discounted it because anyone can claim to be a Christian (you must have googled the same as me: Christian astronauts).
2 Corintians 11:13-15
For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
Mike were you calling the astronaut a servant of satan?
Is this going to be the gist of you contributions here, Kathi… acting shocked and appalled at the idea that beloved scientists and people who identify themselves as Christians could possibly tell a lie? If you stick around long enough, you’ll discover that there is no ISS, because there is no outer space. So if there is a person telling you he’s lived on this non-existent thing in the sky, then he is not telling you the truth. Likewise, two shadows cannot possibly prove the shape of the earth, and so any person telling you that the ONLY explanation for the shadows is that the earth is curved is not telling you the truth. Now in my book, if someone purposely tells you something that is not the truth, what has that person really told you? Wouldn’t you call it a lie?
Can you personally confirm that this guy has been to space? Can you personally confirm that he’s even a follower of Christ? Of course not. NASA’s long line of deception is a huge can of worms that I don’t want to open just yet, as I first want you guys to understand that before the 1970’s, there was never any evidence to support outer space or the heliocentric model, while there were many scientific experiments done to confirm the fixity of the earth, and the movement of the heavenly luminaries over us. I want you to understand all the evidence for a flat stationary earth that we can verify right here on earth before showing you the many frauds NASA has spent trillions of our taxpayer dollars perpetrating. But here’s a little 1 minute snippet of what’s to come when we get to that point…
Notice the astronaut’s comment at the 48 second mark, and his reaction after realizing what he just said. (I sped up that part for brevity.) I’ll leave it for you to decide whether Chris Cassidy was really orbiting the earth on the ISS when he made that comment, but for now I just want to know if two shadows in 250 BC could have possibly determined the shape of the earth. What have you learned from Neil DeGrasse Tyson about that particular subject?
Kathi: Mike,
Do you realize that Neil deGrasse Tyson is a globe guy?
I realize that Tyson is an actor who gets paid a lot of money to publicly propagate the idea that we live on a spinning ball hurtling through space at millions of miles per hour in all conceivable directions at once. Do I realize that he personally believes the stuff he is paid to say? I’m starting to have doubts. He could just be the product of the indoctrination he was taught while studying cosmology, and actually believes the things he says. But as I mentioned in an earlier post, he is throwing out little tidbits of information that contradict the general propaganda, and call into question the testimonies of astronauts, pilots, other cosmologists, Carl Sagan, and those NASA images we’re all so familiar with. I’m beginning to think he has come to know what’s up, and is doing a little subtle whistle blowing. It’s clear from the Apollo photos that certain people involved with that hoax did the same thing back then… maybe as a way to clear their consciences without jeopardizing the lives of themselves or their loved ones.
But we’ll get into all that later. For now, I’ll agree that Neil is a paid actor who promotes the heliocentric model to millions of viewers and readers.
Kathi: Mike,
you said:
I didn’t call Sagan a liar
Yet you said this:
“I just pieced together a 1 minute video that shows Sagan lying, and Tyson telling the truth…”
That is correct. Perhaps T8 will explain the difference between calling someone out for telling a lie, and calling them a liar… as he’s done numerous times on this site.
Well, I’m just going to throw this out there regarding the light that existed before day four of creation…
There always was the Light of God in existence. I’m not speaking of a created light but the Light which would be always existent as contained by God.
Can it be possible that God made within Himself an empty space which He intended to place His creation?
Can it be possible that the empty space was dark until the Light of God was sent forth to pierce that darkness on day one.
Can it be possible that the Light of God that pierced the darkness was the Son of God, the Firstborn of all creation?
Can it be possible that through the Firstborn of all creation, (i.e. the Son of God, the Light brought forth which pierced the darkness) made the formless creation into the formed creation?
Col 1:13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Can it be possible that the Light brought forth sustains all creation. We are told that Jesus is the Light of the world and when the physical sun no longer exists, Jesus is the lamp and there is no longer any night.
Rev 21:23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev22:5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.Like I said…just throwing that out there.
Anthony: “Hi ✝ God separated light from darkness (verse 4). The literary sequence implies that darkness was separated only some time after light existed, but light is always separated from darkness; they are distinct by definition. Perhaps verse 4 is not intended to be sequentially precise. Or perhaps it means that, at the assumed point of observation, darkness finally came. Either way, this is not what the text says literally.
In verse 6 (day 2) God separated the waters. Where did this water come from? Genesis does not tell us. Verse 10 tells us that “earth” (same Hebrew word as in verse 1) is dry land; verse 8 tells us that space between waters is “heaven” (same Hebrew word as in verse 1). But it does not tell us when water was created, or how much water is above heaven. It is mentioned in verse 2 as simply existing. So here we see something else incomplete about the sequence. Something wasn’t meant to figure out that is just God way to choose how HE wants to do thing”The creation event begins with darkness until God said, “Let there be light”. As far as being sequentially precise, it occured on day 1. That’s pretty precise to me. I just checked the Hebrew text and it seems to be literal to me. Why would you assume it is not?
Where did the waters come from? God created them. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Since the earth began as water we can know that it was created on day 1. Then He turned on the lights and said lets get to work (paraphrased of course) ; )
I don’t see an incomplete text but a text that gives the needed information. In the beginning, which began on day 1, God created the heavens and the earth. (again, this is an overview of the creation week) Then He called forth the light, Let there be”. On day 2 He separated the waters. On day 3 He made the dry land to appear. Technically, since the dry land is called “earth” it could be said that the earth was created on day 3 and the raw materials on day 1, however, it is called “earth” in verse two before the dry land appears.
I agree that He didn’t tell us how He did it (other than speaking it into existence) but then could we even understand it if He had?
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