Flat Earth?

This topic contains 2,745 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  t8 6 hours, 50 minutes ago.

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  • #834431
     t8 
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    lols

    I use lol quite a bit because it is actually hard to be serious in some of my replies. It defies belief sometimes. So much evidence that the world is not flat that it is hard to know here to begin. And even when we begin, it is all written off in the stroke of a pen as CONSPIRACY and little effort into explaining it away scientifically. For example, without saying anything I can post these two videos to show the difference in the two beliefs. As you will see, it is all about perspective. You cannot say your perspective on Earth is universally true to all beings. Yet this is basically your argument. Your perspective is truth and all others are lies and conspiracy. lol.

    Geocentric model

    Heliocentric model

    If you guys cannot see that you are the ones on the back foot and are the ones that have to provide proof, then I am just lost for words really.

    #834433
     mikeboll64 
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    I await your response to the 3rd, 4th, and 6th post on the previous page.  How can we see a full moon in the daytime according to the heliocentric model?

    I’m putting the finishing touches on a video discussing that matter.  I’ll post it here when I upload it to YouTube.

    #834437
     mikeboll64 
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    Btw, the next time you try to show an artist’s illustration of the beauty of the heliocentric model, use one that conveys the impossible elliptical orbits of today’s heliocentric model… not the perfect circles of Copernicus’ original model.  The perfect circles didn’t match observation, and so they had to adjust the model.  In case you didn’t know, they’ve adjusted and readjusted the heliocentric model more times than you can imagine.  And any philosopher of science will tell you that the more post hoc adjustments a theory needs, the weaker it is.

    Did you know they even had to reverse the direction of the moon from the original model?

    “They want you to believe that the Moon’s rotation is perfectly synchronized with its orbit so that’s why we only ever see one side of the Moon, rather than conclude the obvious – that the Moon is simply NOT rotating. Moreover, they had to slow down the Moon’s speed by 58,870 mph AND reverse its direction to West-East to successfully sell their phony heliocentricity system to a gullible public. I don’t think there is one person in many, many thousands – regardless of education – who knows that the Copernican Model had to turn the Moon’s observable direction around and give it a new speed to accommodate the phases and eclipses.” -Marshall Hall

    “The Moon presented a special math problem for the construction of the heliocentricity model. The only way to make the Moon fit in with the other assumptions was to reverse its direction from that of what everyone who has ever lived has seen it go. The math model couldn’t just stop the Moon like it did the Sun, that wouldn’t work. And it couldn’t let it continue to go East to West as we see it go, either at the same speed or at a different speed. The only option was to reverse its observed East to West direction and change its speed from about 64,000 miles an hour to about 2,200 miles an hour. This reversal along with the change in speed were unavoidable assumptions that needed to be adopted if the model was to have a chance of mimicking reality.” -Bernard Brauer  

    Now you do.

    #834440
     t8 
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    Btw, the next time you try to show an artist’s illustration of the beauty of the heliocentric model, use one that conveys the impossible elliptical orbits of today’s heliocentric model… not the perfect circles of Copernicus’ original model. The perfect circles didn’t match observation, and so they had to adjust the model. In case you didn’t know, they’ve adjusted and readjusted the heliocentric model more times than you can imagine. And any philosopher of science will tell you that the more post hoc adjustments a theory needs, the weaker it is.

    I already used that one in the early stages of this discussion. But these two videos are comparing both without movement through space. Of course in reality there is no such thing as universally stationary except for maybe God. But as you can see, the truth makes everything simple whereas you would have to argue it is a lucky coincidence and not true which is kinda silly. The truth clears things up, In this case it gets rid of the flower petals. Of course you accept the flower petal orbits are happening and Earth is universally stationary whereas I as most believe that Earth is stationary from our perspective.

    Therefore, can you explain what the force is that makes these particular lights make flower petal orbits. If not gravity is it flowerity or what? How does this force work. Why do objects move in one way, go stationary, then move backwards, and repat? The Heliocentric model is explained by Gravity. Now explain this mysterious force in the Geocentric model.

    And explain why in the Heliocentric model it explains everything simply and symmetrically. See:

    Of course I don’t really need you to explain it so I won’t hold you to it. But if you could explain it simply and eloquently like the Heliocentric model, then I will at least listen.

    #834441
     t8 
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    I await your response to the 3rd, 4th, and 6th post on the previous page. How can we see a full moon in the daytime according to the heliocentric model?

    I will look at these when I have time. But for now, know that not having an answer is not the same as saying that the Flat Earth model must be correct. As long as you understand that fact, then all good. Usually I need to rely on these exact points being answered elsewhere as I am not likely to dedicate lots of time to create experiments and spend time thinking deeply on such issues. I am currently watching videos on NDEs to glean wisdom from people who have glimpsed the other side. I see this as far more productive for me right now, especially since I have an extended family member suffering with a deadly disease. I like most others just do not see the need to answer every question posed by Flat Earthers because we are not feeling threatened by what we know of the theory, so it doesn’t warrant priority. The only reason for answering is to show the theory is wrong and sometimes that is not the no1 thing on people’s mind.

    #834451
     mikeboll64 
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    T8:  I will look at these when I have time.

    Not really much to look at.  Two diagrams and one photo… but whatever.  I believe I’ve wasted enough time on you anyway.  At some point, it becomes a matter of casting pearls before swine, right?  I and D4T tried our best to take you down the scriptural path (which, btw, explains the seven lights you think are terrestrial planets as seven wandering stars that transgressed their God-appointed circuits), but you would have none of it.  You even went as far as insisting that the sun was created on day one – thereby calling God Himself a liar.  You insist that the earth moves and the sun stands still while the Bible says the sun and moon are BOTH lights that move over a fixed and stationary earth on appointed circuits.  You think the pillars on which God set the earth are people, and that scripture allows room for the big bang and billions of years of evolution.  And now you’re heavily invested in NDE’s – when the Bible doesn’t mention any such thing, and actually warns about trying to get information from “the dead”.

    Deuteronomy 18

    1Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to Yahweh

    14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, Yahweh your God has not permitted you to do so.

    And face it, one can’t see what the dead see (if anything) until that one IS dead.  IMO, real NDE’s (as opposed to the flat out scams like the one “The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven” was based on) are vivid dreams based on what those people already believed about the afterlife and heaven/hell.  That’s why the experiences are different for people with different religious beliefs.  Demons are capable of waking the dead so a human can consult with them (1 Samuel 28) and foretelling the future ( Acts 16), but although these things are available to us, God forbade us from engaging in them.  So why are you so interested in finding out things that God doesn’t want us to know?

    Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.  They refused to love the truth. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.

    T8, believing the aforementioned fools over scripture puts you in the category of those who receive the powerful delusion so that you continue to believe the lie – even when shown the truth.  I will pray for you.  In the meantime, I request that you merely ask yourself which of our beliefs aligns with what the scriptures literally teach?  Your model, or mine?  Once you have your answer, follow that path to the end, okay?

    Take care of yourself.

    #834487
     t8 
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    Obviously Mike, there is a ton of evidence that you without explanation will brand as a lie or conspiracy only because it doesn’t fit your world view. Like this:

    So while you are free to write it all off and I am free to not bother answering why eclipses are upside down sometimes because it doesn’t prove a flat earth, (a Flat Earth produces zero eclipses), why don’t we focus on scripture. Because we both know scripture right? I know that you have already discussed that Genesis talks about a dome and I do not agree that is a literal dome from a universal perspective, but let’s not give up right away and start to delve deeper into the Bible. After all, that is the focus of this forum anyway.

    You could start by giving your biggest piece of biblical evidence for a flat earth and we can go from there.

    #834488
     t8 
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    And face it, one can’t see what the dead see (if anything) until that one IS dead. IMO, real NDE’s (as opposed to the flat out scams like the one “The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven” was based on) are vivid dreams based on what those people already believed about the afterlife and heaven/hell.

    Actually, I am with you on your point about the boy who came back from Heaven. Some seem fraudulent like that one. I could be wrong. When I was in my 20s, I was given a vision of Heaven and Hell that was as powerful as any NDE. Since that time, I have had an interest in NDEs and I am convinced they are real. Of course, liars will cash in on anything and this subject is no exception.

    My experience was so incredible in fact, that it changed my life completely. While I already had strong faith in God beforehand, it was this vision that gave me the extra strength when my life got tough. Real tough in fact. So hard that I wanted to die for years, but this experience from God was always the bit that kept me believing in those times. Simply put, what I was shown I believe was so powerful that it put me into this category:

    It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

    Mike, it is sad to see you become the negative narrow minded person you seem to be portraying here. So different are you that it almost seems like your account was hacked, or that you were hiding your true self in years past. I also do really wonder if you have been smoking wacky backy, but while I am not against a plant that God created, I do know that it messes with your mind if you overindulge judging on what I have seen in some friends.

    #834491
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Mike….It’s amazing how falsehood can grow in the mind of a person, when they start down a path of deception. I have another frind that started down the path of “conspiracy theories ” and it’s amazing what the mind can do. Indeed the words of Jesus are true, “the last state of that person is worse then the first”. My hope for you is that God will intervene and show you where you are wrong brother. It’s sorrow for me to see a person like you going down that path brother.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

    #834494
     mikeboll64 
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    1 Thessalonians 5:21

    Test all things; hold fast that which is good.

    You guys can’t “be bothered” to even test this 100% Biblical theory.  And your refusal to even take a moment to ponder the evidence we’ve shown is why I have no more time for you.  You ask for a scripture?  Okay, one scripture…

    Joshua 10:12-14

    At that time Joshua spoke to Yahweh in the day when Yahweh gave the Amorites over to the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel,

    “Sun, stand still at Gibeon,
    and moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”

    And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped,
    until the nation took vengeance on their enemies.

    Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to go in for about a whole day.

    You either believe that scripture for exactly what it says… or you don’t.  Here’s someone who believed it over the lies of godless men – maybe you’ve heard of him…

    “There is talk of a new astrologer who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must invent something special, and the way he does it must need be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth.”  ― Martin Luther

    The question is do YOU believe it for exactly what it clearly says?  Or not?

     

    #834497
     Dig4truth 
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    Mike, some here have made it clear that they do NOT believe the Scripture but rather scientism. It seems they would rather trust NASA and the military; two organizations that have demonstrably told lies to us rather than trust God who cannot lie. I don’t get it myself.

    Will they say that the sun in fact does move over the earth rather than the earth rotating and circling the sun? We’ll see. If their model were correct then the earth would have to stop spinning and orbiting the sun in Joshua’s day. This would have been catastrophic. But if the sun simply stopped moving over the earth then the earth escapes the certain death of stopping its rotation.

    Will this fact alone convince them? Again, we’ll see.

    #834505
     t8 
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    Joshua’s Log Day

    Joshua 10:12-14

    At that time Joshua spoke to Yahweh in the day when Yahweh gave the Amorites over to the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel,

    “Sun, stand still at Gibeon,
    and moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”

    And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped,
    until the nation took vengeance on their enemies.

    Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to go in for about a whole day.

    Scripture speaks in the language of appearance, the language of observation. So when the sun goes down, it does so from our perspective and even scientists still use this type of language when they are referring to their own perspective.

     

    Scripture is God communicating to man and he stoops as low as to speak in a human language which is limited from his perspective and he speaks with familiar things we experience so we can understand. The son of God would often speak in parables, but the language was more plain to his disciples. But you get the idea. There has to be communication between God and man that is in a framework that man can grasp if indeed God wishes to communicate with man.

    Of course men also saw things beyond description too, but by and large, he speaks to us like we speak to our kids. As parents, we usually speak one level above our young kids so they are constantly growing, but we don’t often speak to them exactly like an adult as much will likely go right over their head.

    So let’s be clear about what God can do. As the programmer of the matrix, he can hack that matrix anytime he likes to achieve what he wants. He is not powerless over his own creation. He can pause his creation if he wishes and because of his love for man, well he might do something as big as that to demonstrate to man something important.

    Joshua’s Long Day says nothing about whether the Earth is flat, a globe, or a triangle. Simple as that.

    It is interesting to note that other cultures talk about a “Long Day” and is recorded in ancient Chinese writings, records in both the the Incas of Peru and the Aztecs of Mexico, and there is a Babylonian and Persian legend of a day that was extended. Herodotus said when he was in Egypt, a priest showed him their temple records, and that he read of a day which was twice its natural length.

    An extended day could be achieved in a number of ways or could be referring to a number of things. Let’s look at some of the theories:

    1.  The passage is not literal. It symbolizes something or speaks in  a way that we speak when we say things like, “the day is dragging on” or “time flies when you’re having fun”, etc.
    2. An eclipse of the sun.
    3. The earth stopped rotating for 24 hours or so.
    4. The earth’ rotation slowed down thereby lengthening the day. We know that earth day periods  have changed throughout history from a scientific point of view at least.
    5. The sun and moon appeared to be out of their regular place given by a vision from God.
    6. Pole shift could achieve this. We know the magnetic poles do change and some people believe in Pole Shift as the explanation as to how they find mammoths with subtropical flowers in their stomachs, suggesting a sudden change in climate. So fast in fact, that physical decay had no time to set in before the creatures were preserved in ice. It could be a temporary pole shift. When I was in Norway, I saw the sun at 3:00 am and if I was there earlier, I could have witnessed the sun not going down.
    #834506
     t8 
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    You either believe that scripture for exactly what it says… or you don’t.  Here’s someone who believed it over the lies of godless men – maybe you’ve heard of him…

    As I said before. This scripture points neither to a flat earth or a globe one. It simply says that from Joshua’s perspective that the sun stood still. It doesn’t say that this was the case for the Chinese, Michael the Archangel, or God himself. Although, it certainly could have been true for all men too. Making this argument a proof for a flat earth is overstepping the intended meaning. No one reads that scripture and says, OMG, the earth is flat. No, people only do that because they already believe the earth is flat and they see this as pointing toward that. It is like the Trinity. Once you accept God is a Trinity, then scripture speaks of the Trinity because when you see God written, you see a Trinity. Any instance of perceived plurality from that time on is pounced on and adds to the delusion

    #834508
     mikeboll64 
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    T8:  It simply says that from Joshua’s perspective that the sun stood still.

    Actually the writer states as a matter of fact:  “The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to go in for about a whole day.”

    You’ve made it clear that you do not believe that scripture as it is clearly written.  D4T and I want to know WHY. Who told you this scripture is wrong?

    And as a side note, it is fitting you mentioned other cultures that have the same long day story.  This is what those other cultures believed about the world…

    Surely they also believed that the sun and moon stood still in the midst of the heaven – just like Holy Scripture says.  So why don’t you?

     

    #834510
     mikeboll64 
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    D4T:  Mike, some here have made it clear that they do NOT believe the Scripture but rather scientism.

    Sadly, yes.  I’m hoping T8 will be honest enough to just come out and say he doesn’t believe that scripture because he believes the men of scientism over scripture.

    #834528
     Dig4truth 
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    The Scripture says that “thy word is truth“. Does the Scripture tell a falsehood and call it the truth because of our perception?

    John 17:17 

    v16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

    Here’s the thing, you can’t claim that something is a simile, analogy or metaphor without the context clearly pointing to that claim. If that were not the case you could “spiritualize” anything in the entire Bible which many a liberal person has done. Can you demonstrate that claim in the long day of Joshua? Read it again if you need to.

    Perhaps you have trouble believing this passage because it seems like a miracle. Is the Messiah walking on water any less a miracle? What about raising the dead!? The sun stopped; where is the context of the simile, analogy or metaphor? Please show or explain this Scripture in that context.

    Maybe you have trouble believing that the light was created before the sun. In fact we know this to be true. Is this because it does not fit in with a secular or naturalistic explanation? Is this the same reason you reject the clear meaning of Joshua’s long day? Just asking to clarify.

     

     

     

    #834529
     mikeboll64 
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    My newest video is about the moon problem I was trying to show T8 earlier.  It’s 10 minutes…

     

     

     

     

    #834530
     Dig4truth 
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    Mike, I watched it a day or two ago on YouTube (one of the perks of being subscribed to your channel). Nicely done, very comprehensive! I can tell you put a lot of work into it!

    #834531
     mikeboll64 
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    Thanks, D. 😁  It started off as a comprehensive list of moon-related problems with the helical model, but it was 20 minutes long before I even got to daytime full moons.  And I still had nighttime crescents, selenelions, and a closer look at top down eclipses to go after that!

    I have two short ones coming this weekend – now that I’ve laid the groundwork with this longer one.

    #834624
     mikeboll64 
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    Here’s one of many shorter follow-ups to come.  It’s 2 and a half minutes…

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