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I believe this guy has really hit the nail on the head!
Otherwise how how could people fall for things like this?
D4T: That’s a good video, LU… I like that one of the best Hebrew scholars can give us information about what the Bible teaches about the shape of the earth.
I also thoroughly enjoyed that Michael Heiser teaching, so thank you for sharing it, Kathi. I still remember back when you first turned me onto Michael and his teaching on the Divine Counsel. If only everyone here would have studied this teaching from one of the most renown Hebrew scholars in the world, I wouldn’t have had to spend so much time trying to explain to T8, Keith, Jack, etc. that John 1:1 teaches that the Word (Jesus) was “A god” who was with “THE God” in the beginning. I wouldn’t have had to spend countless hours here trying to make Nick, Gene, Kerwin, Ed, etc. understand that the Bible is anything but monotheistic, and that it clearly and openly teaches of many, many powerful gods – one of whom is the Most High God of all those other gods. Because there can be no “most high god” if there exist no other gods for Him to be higher than. And there can exist no god OF gods if there exist no other gods for Him to be the God of. Alas, it all fell on deaf ears – as you are well aware. But the amazing thing for me is that I was trying to explain these things to them long before you ever turned me onto Heiser’s Divine Counsel teachings. And I came by my amateur understanding (which matches his expert understanding) by simply reading the Bible and letting the words speak for themselves. Anyway, this teaching you linked is as brilliant as his teaching on the Divine Counsel, and I’m glad you shared it.
In this video, Heiser makes the same conclusion that Kathi, T8, and every heliocentric-believing Biblical scholar has ever made…
Yes, the Bible clearly and undeniably teaches this…
… but “we see these terms as metaphorical – because we know better, they didn’t“. (Quote and image from Heiser’s presentation.)
After all, there is no other rational conclusion an honest person could make, right? IF you believe the helical stories of scientism that have never been proven – and which go directly against all kinds of observational and common sense evidence – then you have only one recourse. And that is to imagine in your minds that the people who wrote the scriptures – under inspiration of the Holy Spirit – got the descriptions of our world woefully wrong.
But that poses a more pressing problem… what then did they get right?
In the next few posts, I’m going to put some of Heiser’s presentation into written form for discussion.
D4T: T8, I guess you didn’t watch the video that LU posted, it was excellent! In it a noted Hebrew scholar, Dr. Michael Heiser gave the evidence that the ancient Hebrews did indeed believe in literal pillars and the hard firmament and that is indeed what the Bible teaches. His conclusion was that the Bible is simply wrong or not true about these things but that’s ok. Well, that’s not ok with me and I differ with him on his conclusion but not the evidence that the Bible does indeed teach a solid firmament and actual pillars holding up the earth.
Job 9:5-7 “It is God who removes the mountains, they know not how, When He overturns them in His anger;
6 Who shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble; 7 Who commands the sun not to shine,
And sets a seal upon the stars;Notice all of the physical things that are mentioned? The is no metaphorical language here.
*By the way, where did you get your version of Job 9:6? It is not the same as mine!
Psalm 75:2-3 When I select an appointed time, It is I who judge with equity. 3 “The earth and all who dwell in it melt;
It is I who have firmly set its pillars.Which are the pillars holding up? The earth or “all” who dwell in it? Are ALL people pillars? Of course not, the clear meaning is the pillars of the earth. Why would God’s “pillars” melt under His judgment if they are His exalted people? They wouldn’t, they will shine like stars!
And lastly, please stop accusing me of something that is NOT true. You keep accusing me of taking the verse about Yeshua coming with a two edged sword in His mouth and claim that I take it literally. You have made this claim over and over and I have expressed that you are wrong and have taken the time to explain why you are wrong but you will not stop. I find this very offensive to me!
I even posted this addressing this very topic:
[Eph 6:7 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
t8, does the verse above say “IS” the Word of God or “IS LIKE” the Word of God? Could we say, as reasonable believers in Messiah Yeshua that we have an understanding about what it means when it says “and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.”?
But I guess my main question is will you stop using this verse to obfuscate the true issue?
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.]
As you can see from my use of Scripture that I have put this in proper context for you. I even made another appeal for you to stop this deception. But you have not. I can only understand that you are doing this to make me angry or to hurt me in some way. Congratulations.
Yeshua will come with the Word of God in His mouth and yes, it will do even more than a two edged sword can do. Then all the deceptions will be over. Come quickly Yeshua!
What a fantastic post, D! I’ve highlighted the parts I enjoyed the best.
From the 8:45 mark of Kathi’s video…
Proverbs 8:27-28
When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep…
Heiser’s commentary…
“Made firm” is “amats” in Hebrew. It is the same verb for letting a tree grow firm; hard. Ancient cosmology across the board believed that the sky was this dome over the earth – and it was solid. Kind of like the Truman Show… okay? They believed that the stars were affixed to it; some of the stars never moved, and other ones did. …they believed there was a solid expanse over them.
The point of this is to make it abundantly clear that, despite what we think we know today based on science (falsely so-called), there is no doubt that the people who wrote the scriptures believed in a flat, motionless earth with a hard dome over it, in which were the stars. In other words, no Hebrew believed that birds flew in the firmament, although they knew that birds flew on our side of the face of it.
Can anyone refute this?
From the 10:15 mark of Kathi’s video…
Job 37:18
Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard (haszaq) as a cast metal (mutsaq) mirror?
Heiser’s commentary…
“Mutsaq” is the same word used in the casting of the laver of the tabernacle, where they would wash. It’s [knocks three times on wooden pedestal] solid. It’s also the same terminology used for flint rock. Again, these passages point to the belief that the sky’s a dome and it’s solid. God lives above it; we live below it.
Can we all agree that the God-inspired Hebrews who wrote the scriptures believed in a solid dome firmament?
From the 11 minute mark of Kathi’s video…
Job 22:13-14
But you say, ‘What does God know? Can he judge through the deep darkness? Thick clouds veil him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the vault of heaven.’
Amos 9:6
…who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and founds his vault upon the earth…
Job 26:11
The pillars of heaven tremble and are astounded at his rebuke.
1 Samuel 2:8
For the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and on them he has set the world.
Heiser’s commentary…
[You say] Oh that’s just metaphoric poetry… yeah to us it is. But if you ask them it’s like, “Well there’s that big mountain thing that’s holding up the sky… duh.”
Pillars under the earth, supporting the earth? Again, look at the language. For the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and on them he has set the world. You betcha… It’s Yahweh who did that. Isn’t that amazing? I mean, an Israelite would want you to marvel. He would think you’re insane if you didn’t. Either that or a pagan.
A pagan, huh? Like the pagans who promoted the Copernican heliocentric model, which I repeat, remains simply one model among many, since it has NEVER been verified? Yep… the Israelites who wrote the scriptures would think you’re either a pagan or insane for thinking that the pillars of the earth, the pillars of the heavens, the vault of the heavens, the windows of the heavens, the firmament, or the foundation of the earth were just metaphorical phrases or upstanding citizens.
I won’t go quite that far, since I am well aware of the lifetime of indoctrination we’ve all gone through. They’ve done such a thorough job with their indoctrination that today a flat, stationary earth, over which a sun and moon of the same size run an appointed circuit, and over which the stars orbit so precisely that we can set our clocks by them, seems silly. And a ball spinning 1000 mph hour, that holds trillions of gallons of water, aircraft carriers, people and cities upside down seems normal. One of those describes what we have all observed on a daily basis our entire lives. The other describes something so absurd that it is truly a wonder that any of us ever fell for such nonsense in the first place.
Thank you God for the flat earth movement that has opened the eyes of so many and caused millions to draw closer to you due to the knowledge that we can trust the scriptures in everything they say after all.
At the 21:52 mark of Kathi’s video, there is a speech by an unnamed woman who is identified only as “Flat Earth Christian”. The speech is moving and heartfelt, and worth transcribing here…
The Bible says the earth is immovable, with a hard firmament on top of us. It sounds to me like most people do not want to give up the lie and believe the scriptures and real science. There is brilliant research out there proving the earth doesn’t move, is flat, and that the sun and moon are very, very close. Believe the scriptures and true science, or 500 year old pagan philosophy, and NASA and their fake images. God said that in the end times, all things that were hidden would be revealed. So give up your pride and hateful comments towards people, and do your research. A fool makes up his mind before researching a matter.
That’s all we’re saying, guys… do your research. And on that note, I have to mention that I was tickled that Kathi, who said she was done with this topic, posted this video a week later. That tells me that, although she has more pressing matters to attend to, a little fire has been kindled in her, and she’s at least looking into this matter here and there. And I could not possibly ask for more than that from her. For now, she’s still believing the lie and fake science. But after a little more looking into it, the same preponderance of evidence that finally clicked for me, D4T and millions of other normal, rational, intelligent, sensible people will click for her. And once that happens, look out – because the rabbit hole runs very deep. Be prepared to have your entire belief system radically challenged when comfortable lies start being replaced with unpleasant truths. But also take heart, because the truth shall make you free.
From the 22:35 mark of Kathi’s video, Michael Heiser’s final conclusion…
The message I want you to take away again is Genesis is about theological messaging. And if we look at Genesis this way, it doesn’t matter that Genesis and the rest of the Bible is littered with this kind of cosmological language, because God didn’t bother to change the culture. He could have if He wanted to… He didn’t care. If He wanted to He could have done it. The only other conclusion is that He couldn’t… but then you have a problem with omnipotence. God doesn’t care.
…
I’m going to give them a message, and they’re going to do the best they can under my influence to express it. I’m going to watch as they write; if they goof up … somebody will come along and clean that up a little bit. When it gets done with the process, God can look at this thing we call the Bible and say, “Good job. It’s pretty good. I’m satisfied with that.”
Is it just me, or can you guys also see how pathetically ludicrous that is? Really? God’s going to tell them how the world really is, and allow them to write their own views of the world? And God’s going to give it His seal of approval as being “pretty good” because “God doesn’t care”?
Michael has apparently not considered that it is God Himself describing the world in many of these passages – while the writer is merely taking dictation. So he is basically saying that even God “goofed up” on occasion while describing the world He created. He also mentions that God would send someone along later to clean up the goofed up parts imagined by the ignorant goat herders. But when did that happen? I mean, didn’t he just say, “it doesn’t matter that Genesis and the rest of the Bible is littered with this kind of cosmological language…” ? At what point did God send someone to clean up the nonsensical cosmology that litters the entire Bible and tell us the real nature of our world?
Hmm… maybe the sun-worshipping pagan Nicolaus Copernicus was the prophet God sent to set us free from all those lies in scripture that God called previously “pretty good”?
Guys, there is only one bottom line here. You cannot honestly play the “metaphor” game, and imagine that the writers of scripture were not talking about real pillars, and a real solid vault, and a real circuit that the sun runs over the top of the stationary earth. You must face the facts that the writers of scripture truly believed in the world they were describing. Again, from the BioLogos website…
Let me summarize some of the general arguments for why raqia is understood by contemporary biblical scholars as a solid structure:1
The other cosmologies from the ancient world depict some solid structure in the sky. The most natural explanation of the raqia is that it also reflects this understanding. There is no indication that Genesis is a novel description of the sky;
Virtually every description of raqia from antiquity to the Renaissance depicts it as solid. The non-solid interpretation of raqia is a novelty;
According to the flood story in Gen 7:11 and 8:2, the waters above were held back only to be released through the “floodgates of the heavens” (literally, “lattice windows”);
Other Old Testament passages are consistent with the raqia being solid (Ezekiel1:22; Job 37:18; Psalm 148:4);
According to Gen 1:20, the birds fly in front of the raqia (in the air), not in the raqia;
The noun raqia is derived form the verb that means to beat out or stamp out, as in hammering metal into thin plates (Exodus 39:3). This suggests that the noun form is likewise related to something solid;
Speaking of the sky as being stretched out like a canopy/tent (Isaiah 40:22) or that it will roll up like a scroll (34:4) are clearly similes and do not support the view that raqia in Genesis 1 is non-solid.
The solid nature of the raqia is well established. It is not the result of an anti-Christian conspiracy to find errors in the Bible, but the “solid” result of scholars doing their job…
It is unreasonable to suggest that Genesis 1 knowingly describes only what Israelites perceived, while holding back any commitment that what they saw was in fact reality. The meaning of raqia is likewise a description not only of what the Israelites saw but also of what they actually believed to be true. They were in good company, for their understanding of what was “up there” was in harmony with what ancient peoples believed in general…
The arguments for a non-solid raqia can only gain traction by swimming against the strong current of what we know of the ancient world.
As I mentioned in the first post, your only recourse is to claim that the writers of inspired scripture got it wrong. And if that is the case, what real reason do we have to assume they got anything right?
I will stand with the scriptures. How about you?
T8: Mike and Dig. You need to have spiritual understanding to read the Bible. Carnal reading of scripture has led you to misunderstanding scripture combined with bad science.
Hopefully after reading the teachings of Hebrew expert Michael Heiser and Professor of Biblical Studies Pete Enns (from BioLogos), you’ll realize your error and apologize. I won’t hold my breath, but whether or not you ever admit it, anyone with eyes can see the blatant contradiction between what you say, and what I, D4T and the Hebrew experts say.
You imagine that the writers of scripture were only using metaphorical language when they talked about pillars of the earth, foundations of the earth, and a solid dome firmament, right? I have only one question for you, and pray that you are man enough to give an honest and direct answer to it…
WHY do you imagine such a thing? In other words, on what, exactly, do you base your opinion that this cosmological language in the Bible is metaphoric, and not literal?
The Solid Dome Belief
Mike is a concrete pillar? lol. Of course you know the Bible is full of metaphoric language.
But that fact aside, if the Bible says something and people in antiquity thinks it means another thing, that doesn’t make the people in antiquity right or the Bible wrong. If people believe that the Beast is the Catholic Church, America, The Caliphate, a revived Roman Empire, or whatever, this simply means that people are struggling to understand what the scripture really means. And if one group says it is definitely this and another that, then all we can conclude is that people for sure have a belief about certain bible verses.
Think about the combination of men in antiquity with little knowledge (science) reading scripture and applying to their own experience of things, and yes we can see how some thought there was a literal glass dome. But we know it is an expanse now given the predicted increase in knowledge and the fact that this meaning can be derived from Genesis.
If I told you that during the reformation that people believed that the Antichrist was the Pope, would that make it correct? He might well be, but the fact that people from antiquity thought something doesn’t make their view right. Why would it? In fact I would wager a bet that they thought we today would have better understanding of things today given the fact that knowledge would increase.
You say the Jews of antiquity had more knowledge about the earth and sun when I bet they thought we would have more knowledge about such things given the increase in knowlege.
People in the Southern Hemisphere can all look south and see Alpha Crucis, but that is not possible using the flat earth model.
D4T: Thanks Mike, you’re like a pillar in this community!
T8: Mike is a concrete pillar? lol. Of course you know the Bible is full of metaphoric language.
Thanks, D! 🙂 And yes, T8, we are aware that the Bible includes metaphoric language and teachings. But open your ears and listen to what we are actually asking you…
Psalm 75:3
When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm.
It was Jehovah who said those words, right? So the question is: On what, exactly, do you base your conclusion that the pillars God mentioned are metaphorical, as opposed to actual pillars that hold up the earth?
T8: But that fact aside, if the Bible says something and people in antiquity thinks it means another thing, that doesn’t make the people in antiquity right or the Bible wrong. …if one group says it is definitely this and another that, then all we can conclude is that people for sure have a belief about certain bible verses.
You are comparing the inspired writers of scripture to men who came afterwards and used their own minds to understand what certain scriptures meant. How can you make such a comparison? About which of those latter men’s interpretations did Jesus say, “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear until everything is accomplished”? Which of their interpretations did Paul call, “inspired of God and beneficial for training and rebuking”?
T8: Think about the combination of men in antiquity with little knowledge (science) reading scripture and applying to their own experience of things, and yes we can see how some thought there was a literal glass dome.
But we’re not talking about uninspired men of antiquity who read scripture. We’re talking about the inspired men who wrote the scriptures… men who’s understanding of how the heavens and earth were created and operated came either from God’s own mouth, or from inspiration of His Holy Spirit.
Do you see the difference? Are you able to see that you are comparing apples to oranges?
T8: But we know it is an expanse now…
Do we? How do “we” know that? I surely don’t know that. You definitely don’t know that. In fact, there isn’t a human being in the history of the world who has ever known such a thing. (Of course, if you could bring yourself to give an honest and direct answer to the VERY FIRST question in our debate thread, you’d already know this.)
Let’s compare what “we know now” to the scriptures…
Proverbs 8:27-29
When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth…Who is right, T8? Wisdom, who was there when God did all these things? Or the godless men in whom you put your trust… men who laugh at you and think you’re a moron for even believing in a creator?Do you think this passage arose out of the imagination of some ancient goat herder, who mistakenly thought the skies were firm, and the earth was drawn out like a circle on the deep, and laid on foundations? Or was this scripture inspired of God?At any rate, you have answered the point I was making with Kathi’s video, and proved me right. Because you only have two choices in the matter…1. Accept the scriptures as ultimate authority, inspired of God and beneficial for teaching all matters – including the physical state of our world.
2. Deny the authority of the scriptures by assuming that anything in them that contradicts the stories of godless men of science (falsely so-called) is the metaphorical mistakes of ignorant goat herders who didn’t know what they were talking about when it came to the physical state of our world. And accept the undeniable fact that if the men who wrote the scriptures didn’t know what they were talking about when it came to creation and the way our world works, we really have no valid, defendable reason at all with which to convince a non-believer that these same men knew what they were talking about when it came to anything at all.
In fact, choosing the latter makes you the fool that the godless men of scientism already think you are. Because only a gullible fool would believe the other nonsense written by ignorant fools who got the creation account and the state of our world so terribly wrong.I pray you change your mind and come to choose the former, because woe unto any man who chooses the latter. Let all men be liars and God be true.T8: People in the Southern Hemisphere can all look south and see Alpha Crucis, but that is not possible using the flat earth model.
So it’s nighttime in Australia, South Africa and South America at the same time? 🙂 Alpha Crucis moves across our flat earth in the firmament just like the other stars do. When it’s nighttime, people can look south and see it. The only star that remains in the same place is the one directly over the magnetic center of the plane… the North Star.
But T8, why do you suppose I can see the Big Dipper all year long? The red arrow is me looking out into the night sky, and seeing the Big Dipper…
How can the Big Dipper be trillions of miles away from earth in all four directions? Shouldn’t I be seeing completely different star formations every three months, since I’m looking out into a completely different section of the universe?
How do you explain this? (You personally – in your own words… as opposed to copying and pasting a link or video.)
Two clarifications for Mike
T8, I guess you didn’t watch the video that LU posted
Correct. Not enough time.
You keep accusing me of taking the verse about Yeshua coming with a two edged sword in His mouth and claim that I take it literally.
You misunderstand. I am not accusing anyone of saying that. I am saying you need to believe that if you take it all literally. In other words, if you take the sword as literal as the pillars, then you have to hold that view right? Or do you have the luxury of cherry-picking to suit one’s doctrine. That is, the sword is metaphorical but the pillars are not. Why? Because this is what you believe, so different rules apply that are in agreement with your views. Do you comprehendo now? Sorry that this was not obvious to you Mike. It is simply like me saying that if you think 1+1=3, then 2+3 must equal 6 by that reasoning.
The Pillars
Notice all of the physical things that are mentioned? The is no metaphorical language here.
Mike, we already know that God hung the earth upon nothing and in the context, it is difficult to see how this statement could have a figurative meaning of any kind. Believing in stone pillars holding up the disk or turtle shell flies in this face of this alone. But the pillars are spoken of in a context of people both before and after. In further support of the figurative approach for the pillars of the earth, we know that princes and magistrates of the the world are referred to as not only pillars, but cornerstones or shields and we understand that Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone of the foundation of the apostles and prophets.
Zech. 10:4
From Judah will come the cornerstone, from him the tent peg, from him the battle bow, from him every ruler.Psalm 47:9
The princes of the people are gathered together, even the people of the God of Abraham: for the shields of the earth belong unto God: he is greatly exalted.Likewise Jesus called his sheep ‘the the salt of the earth’ which has the same language construction as ‘pillars of the earth’. So applying the Mike Literal Rule, you must also hold that Jesus has a two-edged sword protruding from his mouth and that God’s people are literal grains of salt inside a giant salt shaker perhaps?
Further clarification of the pillars in scripture
Revelation 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.Galatians 2:9
James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.Mike, the meaning of scripture is hidden from those who are not spiritually minded. Can we assume that you are not spirituality minded today? I mean, you seem to be making the case for that IMO.
Tell me Mike. How would you like to be a pillar in the temple of God?
It requires people who can stand for long periods if time and holding up part of the temple.
Weaklings need not apply.
T8: “You misunderstand. I am not accusing anyone of saying that. I am saying you need to believe that if you take it all literally. In other words, if you take the sword as literal as the pillars, then you have to hold that view right? Or do you have the luxury of cherry-picking to suit one’s doctrine. That is, the sword is metaphorical but the pillars are not. Why? Because this is what you believe, so different rules apply that are in agreement with your views. Do you comprehendo now? Sorry that this was not obvious to you Mike. It is simply like me saying that if you think 1+1=3, then 2+3 must equal 6 by that reasoning.”
So if there is anything that is figurative then everything must be figurative? Or if there is anything that is literal then everything must be literal? Can there be no example where one statement is figurative and another is literal?
Can you see by the highlighted text that you contradict yourself?
T8: “Tell me Mike. How would you like to be a pillar in the temple of God? It requires people who can stand for long periods if time and holding up part of the temple. Weaklings need not apply.”
Why mock one of the highest pinnacles of spiritual aspirations? Especially when the text ends with; “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
Is this being spiritual descerning? Hmm.
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