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Jodi,
you said:
Or what you say,
the days come, saith Jesus, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (myself)
Paul gives further proof that Jehovah is the Father…
I’m saying that Jehovah is the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son). The Son tells us that they are One. Scripture tells us that Jesus is the Lord of lords. Paul gives further proof that the God of gods is the Father and the Lord of lords is the Son. Jehovah is both.
1 Cor 8
…5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist. 7But not everyone has this knowledge.Deuteronomy 10:17
For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.Revelation 17:14
“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
Jehovah is two persons who, together with their united Spirit, act interdependently, not independently as if they were two separate Gods. They act interdependently as One God.
I hope this helps too!
LU
Nick,
you said:
Hi LU,
And his name shall be called Immanuel meaning God with us.
But he was never CALLED Immanuel as a man.
neither is he God our righteousness.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
Throughout the OT, you will see indications of God being with “us” as he wrestled with Jacob, talked and ate with Abraham, looked like a bush on fire, etc. In the NT, God is with us as Jesus. There is the invisible God (the Father) whom no man has seen or heard, and Emmanuel, the one that comes to be with us and is seen and heard (the Son). God has visited us and has not created us and left us to ourselves. That’s good news. Jehovah wants to fellowship with us…
John 1:3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 13:14The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
The fullness of God is not just the Father.
Hi LU,
God is in heaven
’Our Father, Which art in heaven…’
Acts 17.24
’The God Who made the world, and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made of hands, nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said
’For we also are His children’
God is here as His Spirit, the Spirit that was moving over the surface of the waters in the beginning, the Spirit that spoke through and empowered Jesus and the apostles and prophets.
It is all about God and His Holy Spirit.
Hi Nick,
The God of gods (the Father) is in heaven, true. However the Lord of lords (the Son) has been descending and ascending from and back to heaven. Jehovah is both the God of gods (the Father) AND the Lord of lords (the Son).
Philemon 1:3
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Nick,
LU
Nick said:
God raised His Son, Jesus Christ.
God spoke through him in Jn 2
The Father did raise the Son’s body to life but the Son raised his risen body to heaven to the Father. Both events happened to be on the third day, Nick. When God does something through someone, look for the grammar to be in the passive voice. When the person themselves do the action, look for the verb to be in the active voice. That’s Greek for ya.
Hi LU,
Jn 3.34
For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God.
Heb 1.1
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets , in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son…
Hi LU,
Deut 6.6
’ I am the Lord, your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me’
Mk 12.29
Jesus answered,
’The foremost is “Hear O Israel!, The Lord, our God is one..
Jn 17.3
‘This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent’
Hi LU,
“Before Abraham I am.”
God has spoken through His prophets in various ways.
Why would you tell Him not to speak in the first person through His servants?
Hi Lightenup,
Jesus never raised himself from the dead, Romans 1 clearly tells us that the Father did, and Romans 1 also without a doubt identifies Jehovah from Jeremiah 23 as the Father, so my point was to show how incorrect it is to say that Jesus is Jehovah, it’s as incorrect as saying Jesus raised himself from the dead. I can add further, if you are going to say that Jesus is Jehovah with Romans 1 fully in mind, then not only would you then have to say that Jesus raised himself from the dead, but also you would have to say that Jesus is his own father!!
Ah okay I just read your next post and see what you are trying to say. So to you sometimes in the OT it is the Father speaking and at other times it is the Son? Or is it both of the speaking together? Or maybe they are at times talking separately and other times together?
Sorry but I don’t buy it.
The below passage does absolutely nothing to prove what you are saying it in fact it teaches the opposite.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.The passage identifies Jesus as a master NOT because he pre-existed as Jehovah, but because he was declared a Son according to the Spirit by being raised from the dead. The Son is identified as the seed of David according to the flesh, not as Jehovah! Jesus is identified as our master because we received grace through a MAN who died for our sins, according to the plan of the Father.John 17:16
<strong>Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not</strong>; 17 sanctify them in Thy truth, Thy word is truth; 18 <strong>as Thou didst send me to the world, I also did send them to the world</strong>; 19 and for them do I sanctify myself, that they also themselves may be sanctified in truth. 20And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in me; 21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me.As Jesus was sent into the world by the Father it says that is also as Jesus sent his disciples to the world. This proves my earlier point that the concept of Jesus being sent, was not as a pre-existing being coming down to become a fertilized egg, this is speaking of becoming anointed with the Holy Spirit and being given powers from that Spirit, and then going out to speak the truth, or to heal or do any such deeds as the Spirit bestowed. Jesus also declared that his brethren are not of this world AS he is not of this world. This is proving the very opposite of pre-existence. Jesus is not of this world because he pre-existed and was transformed, he is not of this world meaning he is not of the will of man, he is of the Will from heaven, the Father’s Will.
Lightenup, the above passage states that the Father is IN Jesus and that is WHAT makes them ONE!!! They are not ONE because they both are the ONE TRUE GOD JEHOVAH. I will state this simple fact again, Jesus is ONE with the FATHER because the FATHER IS IN the MAN Jesus CHRIST (meaning anointed human being). We are likewise ONE with the Father if Jesus is IN US. Jesus and his brethren are all IN the Father and ONE with the Father, and it is according to God’s Spirit that any MAN may be ONE with the Father. That Spirit guides us to the truth of Christ.
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Jesus is yet again being recognized not as pre-existing but as the MAN who suffered.
Here is another scripture that totally disproves your understanding,
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made* a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Jesus was born of the seed of David, he was born a natural body, he was born in weakness. God proved to mankind that through His Spirit He could bring a man to righteousness and fulfill His law and not be worthy of death. Jesus BECAME the master from heaven, as we are told that he was perfected through suffering at the Will and Plan of the God from heaven. Jesus is the image of the heavenly, not because he pre-existed as Jehovah, but because he became a new man according to a heavenly cause. We too shall be the image of the heavenly.
IMO any doctrine of pre-existence is just pure emptiness, it is a distraction, it draws people away from the truth and significance of our Father’s work that He accomplished in a human being.
When you hear the word CHRIST, what should first and foremost come to your mind is the MAN of the seed of David, according to God’s promise, who was ANOINTED wit God’s Spirit, so that he could overcome the world and bring God’s plan of salvation.
If you hear the word CHRIST and equate it to represent a pre-existent son, or the One True God, you are lost, you have been drawn away by what is known as anti Christ. If you recognize CHRIST as anything but the anointed MAN, you are anti Christ, you are destroying his VERY IDENTITY.
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Acts 2:.33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ 36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
Jesus who was of the seed of David was MADE the Messiah/Christ and he was MADE into a master. He was NOT prior existing as a master, God made Jesus, the human being into a master/lord.
Nick,
I am sure you would be less confused if you would know whether the word translated as “Lord” is the Hebrew word for Yahweh/Jehovah. It is easy to check this in the to look at the Hebrew/English interlinear tool. I will post the same verses that you put up and show you that Jehovah is being referred to as merely Lord in your verses. Same verse…different versions, one clarifies if the translated Lord is Jehovah. Keep in mind that Jehovah is both the God of gods AND Lord of lords. The Father AND the Son, the two who are ONE. In the first verse, I believe you meant to type Deut 5:6 and not 6:6 so I corrected it here.
Deut 5:6 I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. American Standard Version
Deut 5.6
’ I am the Lord, your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me’
Do you see how the American Standard Version makes that more clear?
This verse you quoted is actually a quote of the Shema in the OT. Let’s look there to see if Jehovah is who is meant as the Lord.
Mk 12.29
Jesus answered,
’The foremost is “Hear O Israel!, The Lord, our God is one..
Deut 6:4
Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/deuteronomy/6-4.htm See the Hebrew/English interlinear here on that verse.
Then you give this verse:
Jn 17.3
‘This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent’
The only true God is Jehovah, who is the Father and together with the Father is the Son and their Spirit as One God.
Jodi,
you asked:
Ah okay I just read your next post and see what you are trying to say. So to you sometimes in the OT it is the Father speaking and at other times it is the Son? Or is it both of the speaking together? Or maybe they are at times talking separately and other times together?
Yes, context will help determine who is speaking.
For instance:
Gen 18
1And Jehovah appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the earth, 3and said, My lord, if now I have found favor in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4let now a little water be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5and I will fetch a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart; after that ye shall pass on: forasmuch as ye are come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. 6And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes. 7And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetched a calf tender and good, and gave it unto the servant; and he hasted to dress it. 8And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
Sarah Laughs at the Promise
9And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. 10And he said, I will certainly return unto thee when the season cometh round; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard in the tent door, which was behind him. 11Now Abraham and Sarah were old, and well stricken in age; it had ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. 12And Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? 13And Jehovah said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, who am old? 14Is anything too hard for Jehovah? At the set time I will return unto thee, when the season cometh round, and Sarah shall have a son. 15Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.
Abraham Begs for Sodom
16And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17And Jehovah said, Shall I hide from Abraham that which I do; 18seeing that Abraham had surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20And Jehovah said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before Jehovah. 23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou consume the righteous with the wicked? 24Peradventure there are fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou consume and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from thee: shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26And Jehovah said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sake. 27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, who am but dust and ashes: 28peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, I will not destroy it, if I find there forty and five. 29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for the forty’s sake. 30And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. 31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for the twenty’s sake. 32And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for the ten’s sake. 33And Jehovah went his way, as soon as he had left off communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
Now, keep in mind that no one has seen the invisible God except the Son yet there we have Abraham seeing Jehovah and speaking with him.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
The next chapter we see two called Jehovah:
Gen 19:24 Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven;
There is more too.
Hi LU,
Yes God manifested to Abraham by His Spirit in the three angelic beings.
You need to see and hear the Spirit of God in scripture.
Nick,
you said: Yes God manifested to Abraham by His Spirit in the three angelic beings.
Why do you think you should add to scripture? I don’t see those words anywhere in the chapter.
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
The person who is the firstborn of every creature, is IDENTIFIED as the person who redeemed us through his blood, the MAN Jesus. He is NOT identified as a pre-existing spirit. Furthermore we are told that it is firstborn of the DEAD, not firstborn from the beginning of creation. He is the beginning of new men, and a new creation, of which did exist as a plan from the beginning, otherwise nothing would have been made. Everything God made was for the future heavenly man. Recall 1 Corinthians 15, first was Adam then was Jesus, and Jesus did bear the same image as Adam, he had a natural body and a mind capable of thinking carnally. Jesus was born of the earth, he was born in weakness, and he was raised heavenly, he was raised in power, he was raised an immortal man who had FLESH and BONES and ATE.
1 Corinthians directly tells us that the NATURAL is FIRST and the Spiritual comes second. This completely goes against Jesus pre-existing as Jehovah.
This is very helpful below for seeing how God revealed his plan early on within Abraham, and what “only begotten Son” ACTUALLY represents, and how it has absolutely nothing to do with a pre-existing Jesus.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Wait a minute, Isaac was not Abraham’s only son at this time, why is he called “only begotten”?
Genesis 16: 1 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian slave named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, “The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her.” Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived. When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress….. 15 So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael…17: 1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty ; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.” 3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations… 1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty ; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.” 3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations…. 17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!” 19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. 24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written: “Be glad, barren woman, you who never bore a child; shout for joy and cry aloud, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband.” 28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
Just as Isaac is the second son but is identified as the only begotten son, this is true for Jesus. As Isaac the second son was born as the result of a divine promise, so to was Jesus. ONLY BEGOTTEN represents a SON begotten out of a PROMISE!! God said to David that He WOULD BE a FATHER, as in He was not YET a Father. God was going to be a Father to the new man He was going to MAKE, because the NATURAL is first, then comes the gift of the Holy Spirit, then comes the Spiritual man.
What was that promise?
Again Acts 2:
29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ 36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
Adam was indeed first, and Abraham also was before Jesus, and likewise David, but Jesus is the first of the new creation, he is the firstfruits of the Spirit, the firstborn of the dead. All things were made through this spiritual man as it was a PLAN and a PROMISE from the beginning. Jesus has preeminence, as in being a master over all humans and thus he is before all. This is not as existing beforehand, but as in he is the head.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Hi LU,
We know from Gen 19.1 that two of the beings were angels.
We know from Scripture that no man has seen the invisible God.
We know that God is in heaven, so it was His manifestation on earth.
As the Angel of the Lord often manifests and speaks for God in scripture that is my guess.
Jodi,
you asked:
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Wait a minute, Isaac was not Abraham’s only son at this time, why is he called “only begotten”?
People have struggled with this because they don’t understand that this verse is talking about the only son that was meant for the covenants to be eternally established.
18And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” 19But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
Basically, Isaac was the only begotten son of Abraham’s which the covenant was to be established through, not the other begotten sons that Abe had or would go on to have.
I think that Young’s Literal Translation says it most clearly:
Heb 11:17By faith Abraham hath offered up Isaac, being tried, and the only begotten he did offer up who did receive the promises, 18of whom it was said — ‘In Isaac shall a seed be called to thee;’ 19reckoning that even out of the dead God is able to raise up, whence also in a figure he did receive [him].
Does that help?
Jodi,
Due to what you said, I am wondering who you think the “him” is?
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
The “him” there is the Firstborn over all creation. That is the Son. How in the world do people think that he created all things in heaven and in earth if he didn’t exist until hundreds of years later?? He is both the Firstborn over all creation AND the Firstborn from the dead. He is not just the Firstborn from the dead.
I think that your translation “firstborn of every creature” is not accurate. For example, the firstborn of every creature would be every creature’s first offspring. That would be the first puppy, the first colt, the first piglet, the first human baby that came out of the womb, etc. That would be many firstborns. I think this is a better translation:
Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Some mistake this to say “first created” of all creation but that would be an error. Another Greek word would be used for “first created.” The term firstborn indicates a birth and that indicates that the Son existed before birth happened because non-existant stuff cannot be born. Someone has to exist in order to be born. As a created example, human babies exist several months before they are born. I believe that the Light of day one refers to the Son and when He was begotten (not created). That is a story in and of itself which prompted me to learn about the term “firstborn of all creation” about 26 years ago. The western version of the Nicene creed says this:
NICENO-CONSTANTINOPOLITAN CREED (AD 381)
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; [God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead; whose kindom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe in one holy catholic* and apostolic Church. I acknowlege one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
from here: https://www.earlychristians.net/creeds/
In this, we can see that the early church believed that the Son was begotten of the Father before all worlds…also that he is “light of light” and “very God of very God…”
Hi LU,
The verses in Colossians and Hebrews do not refer to a man but to the Holy Spirit in the man.
Flesh contributes nothing of spiritual relevance to the magnificent works of God.
Man is only a useful vessel if the work of God is done through him.
In every large household there are many vessels.2tim 2
It is the Spirit that creates as ps 104.30 shows.
The Word was with God in the beginning.
Not my will but Thine be done
Lightenup I think you missed the entire point, Isaac was called the “only begotten son”, however he was the SECOND born child to Abraham.
I Corinthians 15 describes two types of human beings represented in two sons
FIRST COMES Earthly, Adam, able to die, of which Jesus was also
SECOND Heavenly, Jesus, firstborn of the dead, first to be given immortality
Psalms 89:
18 For of Jehovah [is] our shield, And of the Holy One of Israel our king.19 Then Thou hast spoken in vision, To Thy saint, yea, Thou sayest, I have placed help upon a mighty one, Exalted a chosen one out of the people,26 He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.’ 27 And I will APPOINT him TO BE my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
JESUS is not Jehovah, HE is the HOLY ONE created by Jehovah and Jesus was to COME and be APPOINTED Jehovah’s firstborn, BECAUSE it represents firstborn of the heavenly man-firstborn of the dead, of the firstfruits of the Holy Spirit.
KEEP the above verse in mind when reading below,
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
First things first,
who is the image of the invisible God? We were just told who the who IS, a MAN that SHED BLOOD and DIED, a MAN we are told in other verses was perfected through suffering, and was not BORN a master but MADE a master. This WHO is consistent through the ENTIRE passage. NEVER does the WHO represent a pre-existing son. THE WHO that is the image of the invisible God is the man that was MADE into a heavenly man, FIRST BORN of the FLESH then BORN of the SPIRIT.
If you continue to read the rest of the passage NOT keeping this WHO in mind, but CHANGE the WHO into a pre-existing son, IMO you are DENYING CHRIST and are reading through an antichrist lens.
YLT, (NOTE “by” in other translations is the transliterated word “en” and it is mostly translated as “in”, and is also translated as “through”)
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, 17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. 18 And himself is the head of the body — the assembly — who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] — himself — first,
THE HIM here is the MAN who died on the cross being perfected through suffering, and was raised in power and glory, MADE into aheavenly man and appointed a master to serve Jehovah, the ONE TRUE GOD who is the FATHER. This is a fulfilled promise, a WORD that existed in the beginning but was manifested later by the seed of David. The FATHER created the heavens and the earth, BY His WORD, and in that WORD was the purpose of creation, and the PROPHETS SPOKE this WORD and identified the purpose as a PROMISE to be fulfilled. The WORD that was at the beginning was the PROMISE of taking an earthly man and MAKING him into a heavenly man, as 1 Corinthians 15 clearly teaches.
19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle, 20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself — having made peace through the blood of his cross — through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens. 21 And you — once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile, 22 in the body of his flesh through the death, to present you holy, and unblemished, and unblameable before himself,
The WHO and the HIM CONTINUE to be identified SOLELY as the man that died on the cross bringing the reconciliation and BECOMING the heavenly MAN.
For through the heavenly man were all things created, and through the heavenly man all things consist. Jehovah would not have made the heavens and earth without this heavenly man that was a PROMISE to COME. This is the CHRIST, meaning the anointed man with Jehovah’s Spirit. To turn this passage into a pre-existing son, is to SPEAK PURELY ANTICHRIST. To turn that which was MADE, to turn the created creature into the One TRUE GOD Jehovah is blasphemous.
Matthew 19:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus finished these words, he removed from Galilee, and did come to the borders of Judea, beyond the Jordan,2 and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them there.3 And the Pharisees came near to him, tempting him, and saying to him, `Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?’4 And he answering said to them, `Did ye not read, that He who made [them], from the beginning a male and a female made them,5 and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall be — the two — for one flesh?6 so that they are no more two, but one flesh; what therefore God did join together, let no man put asunder.’Jesus is saying that God made them male and female. Jesus did not create the heavens and the earth, man nor beast, his Father did.Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the good news of God — 2 which He announced before through His prophets in holy writings — 3 concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord;…….19 Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest [it] to them, 20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead — to their being inexcusable; 21 because, having known God they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened, 22 professing to be wise, they were made fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of fowls, and of quadrupeds, and of reptiles.
This passage makes Jesus the Son of God according to a promise that was told by God to the prophets, it says Jesus was marked Son of God through the Holy Spirit by being raised from the dead, showing that the Son of God was CREATED at the time of his resurrection, being created into the heavenly man. We then are told that it was God that created the world, and men changed the glory of God when they believed that something God created was actually the creator.
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