Firstborn of/over all creation

[mikeboll64]

I would like an answer to the following:

Charles, lacking any intelligent response, tells me that I can't see the “truth” that Jesus is God Almighty because I think in natural terms, and don't have the Spirit.

Is Charles right, Nick? Is it true that Jesus IS the God he is the Son of, but you and I just can't “see the truth” because we are lacking Spirit?

And if not, is this kind of a “rebuttal” worth the paper it is written on?

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2014,02:47)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2014,19:36) Nobody saw Jesus ascending INTO heaven. Many disciples saw Jesus ascend to where he was before, ie: heaven. I agree that no human eye saw him REACH that destination, but they surely saw him begin the journey to that place, right? They saw him ascend ON HIS WAY to heaven, didn't they?

So, they saw him ascend into heaven as the “last Adam”, but he did not come down from heaven as “the last Adam”.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2014,17:11)

Hi 94, It is what James says.

Well, then were we born sinners? or did we first have to develop these lusts, and then yield to them before they became sin.

The scriptures state that “all men, except for Jesus, have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”, and that is true, but we were not born sinners.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ June 08 2014,23:38)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2014,12:11) Hi 94, It is what James says. N so it is true that we are conceived in sin by our parents

That is not what the scriptures state. Please read what he said.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Scripture speaks of these lusts as universal.
Nowhere does it say we have to invite them in.

Sin only begins when we submit to lusts and they conceive sin

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Yes you cannot see spiritual things yet.
We hope you will

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ June 09 2014,01:44)

Quote (terraricca @ June 08 2014,23:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2014,12:11) Hi 94, It is what James says. N so it is true that we are conceived in sin by our parents That is not what the scriptures state.  Please read what he said.

Marty

do you know in scriptures one man or a human being that was not conceived in sin

except Christ ;

now sin ,mean without God ,my understanding is that we human are created to give God our godly children ,because the process of recreation in us is for making children for God not for our personal pleasure or satisfaction ,

just as Christ came down to teach us how we can make true sons for God and that will remain true children for ever ,

anyone in mind

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 08 2014,13:31)

No, Mike: That is pure speculation.  The scripture does not say how he was in heaven prior to being born into this world, only that he came down from heaven, and he said that he was going to ascend where he was before……

Marty,

When a PERSON says he came down FROM heaven – isn't it a fair speculation that this person was actually IN heaven before he came down FROM heaven?

When that PERSON says people will see him ascend TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE, and then people watch as he ascends TO HEAVEN – isn't it a fair speculation that HEAVEN is the place HE WAS BEFORE?

Quote (942767 @ June 08 2014,13:31)

Neither does the scripture state where he was when you say that he emptied himself.

Keeping in mind the teaching of Jesus himself – that I just outlined above – where do you THINK Jesus was when:

He was existing in the form of God, but didn't considered equality with God something to be grasped….. but instead emptied himself and WAS MADE in the likeness of a human being?

Do you think he was existing ON EARTH before he WAS MADE in the likeness of a human being?  If not earth, then WHERE?  

Remember, line upon line, precept upon precept………. so feel free to use the fact that Jesus clearly told us he CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN to do the will of the God who sent him down from heaven.

In other words, use the teachings from John 6:38, 8:42, and 8:58 (among many others) to help you understand the true meaning of Phil 2:6-8.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 08 2014,13:35)

So, they saw him ascend into heaven as the “last Adam”, but he did not come down from heaven as “the last Adam”.

What scriptural support do you have for that claim?

And what point would you like to make WITH that claim?

I'm confused as to what that claim has to do with anything we're discussing.

[mikeboll64]

I asked Nick this question:

Is Charles right, Nick?  

Is it true that Jesus IS the God he is the Son of, but you and I just can't “see the truth” because we are lacking Spirit?

And this was Nick's apparent response:

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2014,15:14)

Hi MB, Yes you cannot see spiritual things yet. We hope you will

Interesting……………

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Shouting does nothing for your image.

Foolish questions do not require answers
Prov 26.4

Do you not know the Spirit of the Son?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2014,18:24)

Foolish questions do not require answers Prov 26.4

So we've moved on from “The Spirit must show you these things” to “Your questions are foolish, and therefore don't require an answer from me”, huh?

Anything to AVOID actually addressing the SCRIPTURAL points we've been making, right Nick?

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2014,06:24)

Hi MB, Shouting does nothing for your image. Foolish questions do not require answers Prov 26.4 Do you not know the Spirit of the Son?

N

you have a hard time to defend your views I mean your personal views ,because you have let yourself being influenced by men theory s ,and when expose to men that know the scriptures well ,you find yourself naked ,silenced ,

unable to defend your men made religion ,

even if we show you the scriptures ;you will not believe them ,why is that Nick have you been corrupted so deep that your soul it self as been lost

my love stands in the truth of God so that I cannot be shaken by men's religion dogma

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2014,06:45)

Hi 94, Scripture speaks of these lusts as universal. Nowhere does it say we have to invite them in.  Sin only begins when we submit to lusts and they conceive sin

Hi Nick:

When Eve was being tempted she was in innocence, but the scriptures state:

Quote

Gen 3:6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And so, when she yielded to the temptation she sinned, not before.

I also was born an infant in innocence, not having done neither good nor evil, but the scriptures state;

Quote

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

And then:

Quote

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I don't know about you, but I did not sin, transgress God's law, until I was tempted and yielded to the temptation.

When I looked upon that beautiful woman, and things began to happen, I began to think of how wonderful it would be, then those meditations entered my heart, and I acted, that is when I sinned.

I went out into the world, and the serpent was there waiting for me.

Quote

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Quote

Pro 1:10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
So expound the verses in Jas 1 about lusts thanks

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2014,12:58)

Hi 94, So expound the verses in Jas 1 about lusts thanks

I have already told you what is meant. That we have lusts in our flesh is true, all those things that we lust after are in the world, but does he say that we were born with those lusts?

Quote

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

First of all, he is not speaking to children, but to adults who are in the church. Secondly, he states, that God does not do the tempting with evil, but every man is tempted when he drawn away from his own lusts and is enticed, and then when he yielded to the temptation, he sinned. And so, that implies that he is tempted.

Isn't that what I have stated?

Love in christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
The word occurs 50 times in the NT alone.

these words are spoken to the saved as if all would experience their effects

19.Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

20.Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

21.Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

22.1 Corinthians 10:6
Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

23.Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

24.Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

25.Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

[942767]

I am sorry Nick, I have to go. None of those scriptures say that we were born with those lusts.

You figure it out for yourself. I can't seem to be helping you. I know that I did not start wanting more candy than my fair share until I tasted how good it was, then is when I wanted more, and more, lust, lust, lust.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
A moot point

[terraricca]

N

All men are born in sin , it does not matter if you believe it or not , that is what it is,

[Author]

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