Firstborn of/over all creation

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
I guess we all need to remember what you said

“It's good FOR YOU when we agree, Ed. Because those are the times that you are aligned with the truth of the scriptures. “

you cannot be wrong

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2014,18:18)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2014,11:13) Quote (942767 @ June 02 2014,17:04) If God did not say it, I won't teach it. How about if your Lord Jesus Christ says it, Marty?  Will you also believe it then? John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. Do you believe your Lord, Marty? Yes.

Well then believe that your Lord Jesus Christ came down from heaven – just like he so clearly said he did.

(Oh I know, just like with Phil 2:6-8, you have a DIFFERENT understanding to those very clear words Jesus himself said, right? )

[942767]

Hi Mike:

You say:

Quote

Marty, Michael the archangel is a son of God, right?  So if God decided today to have Michael born of the flesh by a human woman, could God tell her the child she will bear will be called God's son?  YES.

I suppose God can do anything that He wants to do, but He didn't make Michael the archangel born of the flesh, and Jesus was not an angel or any other creature prior to being born into this world.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
He cannot be wrong. Take care.

Actually he is wrong and unteachable

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2014,11:38)

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2014,18:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2014,11:13) Quote (942767 @ June 02 2014,17:04) If God did not say it, I won't teach it. How about if your Lord Jesus Christ says it, Marty?  Will you also believe it then? John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. Do you believe your Lord, Marty? Yes. Well then believe that your Lord Jesus Christ came down from heaven – just like he so clearly said he did. (Oh I know, just like with Phil 2:6-8, you have a DIFFERENT understanding to those very clear words Jesus himself said, right?   )

Right.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2014,18:24)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2014,11:20) Not speculation, Marty……. but scripture. He was existing in the form (outward appearance) of God before being made in the likeness of a human being. Sorry Mike, not so.  That is not what the scriptures mean. I have already discussed this with you somewhere else.   If you are basing your beliefs founded on this speculation, there is not need for me to discuss this with you any more. Love in Christ, Marty

People, pay attention here……… because this is the action I just outlined for Marty in my recent post to him. He only wants to believe the scriptures he thinks ALIGN with his own pre-conceived truth of the matter.

The others, he will either disown entirely, or twist them so badly that they are complete and utter NONSENSE.

For those of you who don't know, Marty's idea of Phil 2:6-8 is that Jesus was existing in the form of God WHILE he was already a human being. And then somehow “emptied himself and was MADE into the likeness of a human being”.

See? It doesn't have to be clear, or make sense, as far as Marty is concerned. As long as he can twist that scripture enough in HIS OWN MIND that it no longer teaches about a pre-existent Jesus, he is satisfied.

That way, he can just DISOWN that scriptural teaching when it comes up in discussions……… exactly like he's doing right now with this post.

Mike, we don't need to discuss this scripture anymore. Just know that it DOESN'T speak of pre-existence, and so I won't accept it as a pre-existence proof scripture.

Run away, Marty. Go as fast as you can, or the truth of the scriptures might catch up with you.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2014,18:39)

Hi Mike: You say: Quote Marty, Michael the archangel is a son of God, right?  So if God decided today to have Michael born of the flesh by a human woman, could God tell her the child she will bear will be called God's son?  YES. I suppose God can do anything that He wants to do, but He didn't make Michael the archangel born of the flesh, and Jesus was not an angel or any other creature prior to being born into this world. Love in Christ, Marty

That's not an ANSWER to the point I laid out, Marty.

I'm asking if God could tell the woman to whom Michael was about to be born that the child she will bear WILL BE CALLED a son of God………… even though he had ALREADY BEEN a son of God long BEFORE he was born as flesh?

And the ONLY honest answer is “YES”. And since that is the case, your claim that Jesus couldn't have already been the Son of God in heaven BEFORE the angel told Mary he WOULD BE called the Son of God on earth, is moot.

[terraricca]

marty

Quote

He was an infant just as I was when I was born, but I was not the “Son of the living God”, but as it relates to my being a “manchild”, no, no difference. He was born in innocence, just as I was, but then the scriptures state:

we all humans are born in sin and you included ;Jesus was not why neither did he had his mother gens nor a man genes both would be sinful and cursed by Adam sin.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2014,18:42)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2014,11:38) Quote (942767 @ June 02 2014,18:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2014,11:13) Quote (942767 @ June 02 2014,17:04) If God did not say it, I won't teach it. How about if your Lord Jesus Christ says it, Marty?  Will you also believe it then? John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. Do you believe your Lord, Marty? Yes. Well then believe that your Lord Jesus Christ came down from heaven – just like he so clearly said he did. (Oh I know, just like with Phil 2:6-8, you have a DIFFERENT understanding to those very clear words Jesus himself said, right?   ) Right.

And how many scriptures do you suppose you have to understand in “just the right way”, so they don't go against your doctrine, Marty?

I mean, a NORMAL PERSON would read Jesus' words in John 6:38, and BELIEVE that Jesus came down from heaven, just like JESUS said he did. And that would fit exactly with the LOGICAL understanding of Phil 2:6-8, among others like John 17:5, Col 1:15-16, etc.

But those are scriptures that you have to understand “just the right way” as well………aren't they? You have to put your own little twist on John 1:14, and 1 Cor 8:6, and Rev 3:14. You have to TWEAK them to your liking, not even caring if your final tweaked result makes an ounce of SENSE when you're done.

So, how many do you guess you have to do this with, Marty? Shall we do an exercise and see? I could take those 50+ scriptures in the Pre-existent Database thread, and list them for you one by one on this thread.

Then we could see how many of them you must “explain away”, by giving them an entirely different meaning than the most obvious thing the words could mean.

Shall we do that? Or would you just like to take a GUESS at how many scriptures you have to tweak just the right way?

I know there's John 6:38. And Phil 2:6-8. And John 17:5. And John 1:14. And Col 1:15-16. And 1 Cor 8:6. And Heb 1:2.

I'm sure there are more we've discussed, but I can't think of them all right now. All I know is that you have to tweak every single one of the ones I mentioned above. You have to twist the words, the meanings of the words, and post a lot of rationalization in an effort to give that tweaked version an ounce of respect.

I just accept them as they are written, Marty. In doing so, they all align with each other, and give support to each other.

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2014,11:48)

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2014,18:39) Hi Mike: You say: Quote Marty, Michael the archangel is a son of God, right?  So if God decided today to have Michael born of the flesh by a human woman, could God tell her the child she will bear will be called God's son?  YES. I suppose God can do anything that He wants to do, but He didn't make Michael the archangel born of the flesh, and Jesus was not an angel or any other creature prior to being born into this world. Love in Christ, Marty That's not an ANSWER to the point I laid out, Marty. I'm asking if God could tell the woman to whom Michael was about to be born that the child she will bear WILL BE CALLED a son of God………… even though he had ALREADY BEEN a son of God long BEFORE he was born as flesh? And the ONLY honest answer is “YES”.  And since that is the case, your claim that Jesus couldn't have already been the Son of God in heaven BEFORE the angel told Mary he WOULD BE called the Son of God on earth, is moot.

Only your mind can rationalize this kind of nonsense. God did not do it according to the scripture, and so anything that to suppose that “he may have done this” is rationalization.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2014,18:36)

Hi MB, I guess we all need to remember what you said “It's good FOR YOU when we agree, Ed.  Because those are the times that you are aligned with the truth of the scriptures. “ you cannot be wrong

I'm sorry Nick………. are you still here? I guess I've overlooked you lately because you haven't posted anything of value.

Did you find the scripture that says Jesus was NOT the one who spoke the words of John 6:38 yet? Or are you still looking?

Let me know when you find it, okay?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2014,18:59)

Only your mind can rationalize this kind of nonsense.  God did not do it according to the scripture, and so anything that to suppose that “he may have done this” is rationalization.

Marty,

You already answered the point in your last post.  You said God can do anything He wants to do.

So then it is POSSIBLE for God to cause a spirit son of His to be born on earth from a human woman.  And it is possible that God could tell that woman that the child she WILL bear WILL be called a son of God………… even though he had ALREADY BEEN a son of God for eons before this time.

So your “proof” that Jesus couldn't have already been the Son of God BEFORE the angel told Mary he WOULD BE the Son of God on earth, is moot.  It is a non-point, Marty.  There is no proof in it.  Are you getting the point?

Now, your next step is to tell me no scripture SAYS God sent His Son into the world to be born of a woman.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
But when the right time came, God sent his Son [into the world]. A woman gave birth to him, and he came under the control of God's laws.

Romans 1:3
regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David,

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh……….

Pay special attention to the last one, Marty.  What exactly does it mean for God to “send His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh“?

What would you think if scripture said, “And God sent John the Baptist to the Jordan in the likeness of sinful flesh“ ?  What would that even mean, since John had never been anything OTHER THAN “sinful flesh”?

Or what if Heb 2:14 said, Since the children have flesh and blood, John the Baptist also partook in flesh, so that by his actions, he might pave the road for the Lord ?

What would it mean that John the Baptist also had to “partake in flesh and blood”?  I mean, what else COULD he have been, if not flesh and blood?  It would be a senseless statement to make, right?

Yet these kinds of statements ARE made about Jesus many times in scripture.  And these kinds of statements wouldn't make an ounce of sense if they were said about someone who had never been anything OTHER THAN flesh and blood, Marty.

You only need to think these things out. I mean, Jesus CAME IN THE flesh. No human being of usual origin is said to have COME IN THE flesh. There is real MEANING in these words, but you ignore them. How sad for you.

[NickHassan]

hi MB,
If you knew the voice of the Spirit you could answer your own questions.

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2014,07:36)

hi MB, If you knew the voice of the Spirit you could answer your own questions.

N

we know that ,that is what you do ;and make others believe that it is God 's spirit that as given you the words to say ,

you do not believe Christ and you do not believe the word of God either ,

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2014,12:30)

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2014,18:59) Only your mind can rationalize this kind of nonsense.  God did not do it according to the scripture, and so anything that to suppose that “he may have done this” is rationalization. Marty, You already answered the point in your last post.  You said God can do anything He wants to do. So then it is POSSIBLE for God to cause a spirit son of His to be born on earth from a human woman.  And it is possible that God could tell that woman that the child she WILL bear WILL be called a son of God………… even though he had ALREADY BEEN a son of God for eons before this time. So your “proof” that Jesus couldn't have already been the Son of God BEFORE the angel told Mary he WOULD BE the Son of God on earth, is moot.  It is a non-point, Marty.  There is no proof in it.  Are you getting the point? Now, your next step is to tell me no scripture SAYS God sent His Son into the world to be born of a woman. GOD'S WORD® Translation But when the right time came, God sent his Son [into the world]. A woman gave birth to him, and he came under the control of God's laws. Romans 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh………. Pay special attention to the last one, Marty.  What exactly does it mean for God to “send His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh“? What would you think if scripture said, “And God sent John the Baptist to the Jordan in the likeness of sinful flesh“ ?  What would that even mean, since John had never been anything OTHER THAN “sinful flesh”? Or what if Heb 2:14 said, Since the children have flesh and blood, John the Baptist also partook in flesh, so that by his actions, he might pave the road for the Lord ? What would it mean that John the Baptist also had to “partake in flesh and blood”?  I mean, what else COULD he have been, if not flesh and blood?  It would be a senseless statement to make, right? Yet these kinds of statements ARE made about Jesus many times in scripture.  And these kinds of statements wouldn't make an ounce of sense if they were said about someone who had never been anything OTHER THAN flesh and blood, Marty. You only need to think these things out.  I mean, Jesus CAME IN THE flesh.  No human being of usual origin is said to have COME IN THE flesh.  There is real MEANING in these words, but you ignore them.  How sad for you.

Hi Mike:

It means that Jesus who was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and not born of the sperm of man, was sent into the world after he was baptized and anointed with Holy Ghost and power to fulfill the Law. He obeyed the Law of God without sin even unto death on the cross.

Quote

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Quote

Luke 4 King James Version (KJV) 4 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

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Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

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17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

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Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

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Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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John 17:12 While I was with them in the worl d, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi MB
'You already answered the point in your last post. You said God can do anything He wants to do.

So then it is POSSIBLE for God to cause a spirit son of His to be born on earth from a human woman. '

You have to rely on what is POSSIBLE for God to do??

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2014,08:10)

Hi MB 'You already answered the point in your last post.  You said God can do anything He wants to do. So then it is POSSIBLE for God to cause a spirit son of His to be born on earth from a human woman. ' You have to rely on what is POSSIBLE for God to do??

N

sure God is love and so as a way to do things this is not your case ,

God keeps his promises ,you do not ,

God is almighty but above all he as love,righteousness, holiness,justice,faithfulness ,goodness, truthfulness, kindness,mercy,

all those things you have no clue of what they are ,

God as show through the scriptures what you should after 30 years know ,but you are still looking for all basic understanding ,you still looking for the elementary knowledge of baptism,the dead of Christ ,and the repentance of sin ,

and you call Mike and I blind , are you dead

[942767]

Hi Mike:

You quote the scripture accurately, and then you add a little tidbit of your own:

This part, tidbit, is rationalization:

Quote

.. even though he had ALREADY BEEN a son of God for eons before this time

Galations 4 states: His own Son, made of a woman, under the law, [A Son made of a woman equates to a manchild born of the virgin Mary, which is scripture.

Quote

Romans 1 King James Version (KJV) 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh

This scripture that you quote pertains to Jesus Christ.  His earthly life started when he was born of the virgin Mary and ended when he ascended into heaven after the resurrection.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

It means that Jesus who was conceived of the Holy Ghost

Lk 1:34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.

tell me what does it mean ;The Holy Spirit will come upon you and what does it mean ;the power of the Most High will overshadow you.

you are so sure that it was the holy spirit ,what I disagree with , but let see what you say about God's power

[942767]

Hi Mike:

You say:

Quote

You only need to think these things out. I mean, Jesus CAME IN THE flesh. No human being of usual origin is said to have COME IN THE flesh. There is real MEANING in these words, but you ignore them. How sad for you.

No other person can claim that he was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of a woman. The Only Begotten Son, not born of the sperm of man, but yet, had human flesh just like, you and I, sinful flesh, and in our likeness he was tempted every way that we have been but did not sin even unto death on the cross.

Love in Christ,
Marty

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