Firstborn of/over all creation

[942767]

Quote (Ed J @ May 26 2014,10:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2014,09:37) Quote (Ed J @ May 25 2014,16:08) “In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:  Who is the image of the invisible God, the “FIRSTBORN” of every creature:”(Col 1:14-15) Hi Everyone, This verse has caused much confusion, some even believing that the word “firstborn” is a coded message to us to mean: 'THE FIRST BEING TO BE CREATED'.                        – but – If we were to do 2 things, the trail ends up in the same place. 1. Follow the context 2. Look up the definition      And in both cases the meaning is the same “that in all things he might have the preeminence“ (Col.1:18) Preeminence means he is the most important, does anyone disagree? END OF STORY Ed, The CONTEXT is that Jesus was the firstborn of every creature……….BECAUSE……. through him, all the [other] things in heaven and on earth were created. Don't forget the Greek “because” or “since” that Paul uses to start verse 16.  The two verses are really one long statement. Also, if anyone has “preeminence” in all things, it would be God…….. not His holy servant Jesus the Anointed. Hi Mike, Th bible says “God” created all things ALL things A-L-O-N-E. Will you continue to trump your understanding over plain scripture? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed:

I agree with you in what you are saying to Mike. It did not say that he would be pre-eminent above God, but that he was preeminent above all of His creation.

Quote

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2014,17:01)

The context of a verse of scripture may dictate that the Hebrew word translated possessed in the KJV should be translated as create, is true, but Proverbs 8 really is speaking about wisdom, and relates to Jesus, to be sure, but the God did not create wisdom, but He does possess it,

Marty,

What about verses 23-25? In them, wisdom speaks about the time it was “born”, and “given birth”.

Also, where's your homework? I want you to post the KJV version of those three scriptures, side by side with the NIV version of the same three scriptures.

Why didn't you do that?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ May 25 2014,17:13)

Hi Mike, The bible says “God” created all things ALL things A-L-O-N-E.

I agree with that, Ed.

But do YOU agree with the many scriptures that say God did such a thing THROUGH His firstborn Son, Jesus the Anointed?

See……. I can accept BOTH teachings, because I know what Tertullian knew:  He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

God ALONE created all things, Ed.  But God chose to do that THROUGH many other vessels, such as Jesus, your mom and dad, you, etc…………..

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,17:14)

Hi MB, Rom 8 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: He was like us.

Yes,

Jesus lost none of those given to him by God. Now his spirit bears witness with the spirit of those who follow him that we are also God's children – just like Jesus is.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2014,17:43)

Hi Ed: I agree with you in what you are saying to Mike

I agree with what Ed said too, Marty.

But I also agree with the other scriptures that say God created all things through Jesus.

You and Ed seem to only believe half of the story.

[NickHassan]

hi MB,
You say
Did THE SPIRIT raise up his own body in three days?

Because whoever said, “I will raise it up” was speaking about raising HIS OWN body.

John said JESUS said the words. But you aim to correct John. “

Would you correct the words of the Spirit?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
The Spirit became one with Jesus.
Can you not understand at all?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
MK1
23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,

24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.

26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.

Who spoke to Jesus?

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2014,10:48)

Quote (Ed J @ May 25 2014,17:13) Hi Mike, The bible says “God” created all things ALL things A-L-O-N-E. I agree with that, Ed. But do YOU agree with the many scriptures that say God did such a thing THROUGH His firstborn Son, Jesus the Anointed? See……. I can accept BOTH teachings, because I know what Tertullian knew:  He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. God ALONE created all things, Ed.  But God chose to do that THROUGH many other vessels, such as Jesus, your mom and dad, you, etc…………..

Hi Mike,

'He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another'
What's that suppose to mean, God needed help? Clearly it says God created alone.
God created my “spirit”, and God gave Humans the ability to pro-create after their kind.

Will you continue to trump your understanding over plain scripture?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2014,10:45)

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2014,17:01) The context of a verse of scripture may dictate that the Hebrew word translated possessed in the KJV should be translated as create, is true, but Proverbs 8 really is speaking about wisdom, and relates to Jesus, to be sure, but the God did not create wisdom, but He does possess it, Marty, What about verses 23-25?  In them, wisdom speaks about the time it was “born”, and “given birth”. Also, where's your homework?  I want you to post the KJV version of those three scriptures, side by side with the NIV version of the same three scriptures. Why didn't you do that?

Mike:

God's Wisdom was “brought forth” to us through “His Word”.

Quote

Pro 8:23 “From everlasting I was fnestablished, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth. Pro 8:24 “When there were no depths I was fnbrought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water. Pro 8:25 “Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was fnbrought forth;

And yes, I am aware of the footnotes, that it could be “born”, but again it is the context that dictates what it means.

Certainly, you must know that God is the source of all Wisdom.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (Ed J @ May 26 2014,11:23)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2014,10:48) Quote (Ed J @ May 25 2014,17:13) Hi Mike, The bible says “God” created all things ALL things A-L-O-N-E. I agree with that, Ed. But do YOU agree with the many scriptures that say God did such a thing THROUGH His firstborn Son, Jesus the Anointed? See……. I can accept BOTH teachings, because I know what Tertullian knew:  He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. God ALONE created all things, Ed.  But God chose to do that THROUGH many other vessels, such as Jesus, your mom and dad, you, etc………….. Hi Mike, 'He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another' What's that suppose to mean, God needed help? Clearly it says God created alone. God created my “spirit”, and God gave Humans the ability to pro-create after their kind. Will you continue to trump your understanding over plain scripture? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Well, Ed, but we know that what “Tertullian” said is the truth, and there could be no other way to understand what God meant when he said “all things were created by him(Jesus).

This is the guy who first used the term “Trinitas”, and who used to baptize his converts by dunking them in the water three times, “once, in the name of the Father, and again, “in the name of the Son”, and again, “in the name of the Holy Spirit”, and I believe that he was an apostate.

This is Mike's source.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Wakeup]

In Mikes bible wisdom is mentioned as born.
Not nice.

In the kjv.it says brought forth.

wakeup.

[terraricca]

Quote (Wakeup @ May 26 2014,12:30)

In Mikes bible wisdom is mentioned as born. Not nice. In the kjv.it says brought forth. wakeup.

WUP

BROUGHT FORTH ,CREATED AND BORN ,

JUST TELL ME WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE WORDS ARE THEY INTER REPLACEABLE OR NOT SO

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,18:09)

Hi MB, The Spirit became one with Jesus. Can you not understand at all?

No Nick,

The MAN who existed on earth as Jesus of Nazareth actually WAS that spirit being who God caused to be born from the womb of a woman.

It isn't a matter of some spirit coming to dwell IN Jesus. The true scriptural teaching is that this one known as “The Word” actually BECAME the flesh man Jesus.

Why do you insist on adding the word “IN” into John 1:14?

Which is the scriptural truth:

1. The Word came to be IN flesh?

2. The Word BECAME flesh?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
So not one you could follow.
What a head start!

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
You say
“It isn't a matter of some spirit coming to dwell IN Jesus.”
Wow!

So the Spirit does not dwell in you either?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
So none of these verses apply even to Jesus?

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
You say
“The MAN who existed on earth as Jesus of Nazareth actually WAS that spirit being who God caused to be born from the womb of a woman.”

So is Acts 10 38 wrong when it states that

” GOD ANOINTED JESUS OF NAZARETH with the Holy Spirit and power”?

Or are you wrong?

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2014,02:13)

Hi MB, You say “The MAN who existed on earth as Jesus of Nazareth actually WAS that spirit being who God caused to be born from the womb of a woman.” So is Acts 10 38 wrong when it states that ” GOD ANOINTED JESUS OF NAZARETH with the Holy Spirit and power”? Or are you wrong?

Nick

think harder ,in time back what did Jesus said to his apostles

Mt 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mt 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

did the writer lied when he wrote those words that Jesus told them

the time of his birth is not the time of his return to heaven

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
The words are not correct according to Eusebius who had an original copy of mts gospel in his library
The apostles all baptised in the name of Jesus.
were they untrue to what they had heard?

[Author]

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