Firstborn of/over all creation

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,14:26)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2014,07:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,13:34) Hi MB, Jesus did not come in the flesh 1 John 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Do you want to re-word your statement, Nick? Hi MB, Be more careful with accuracy Jesus Christ came in the flesh

See, even as I made that post, I knew you were going to play semantic games. But I let this happen on purpose, so I can show you what you need to know.

The phrase/name/title “Jesus Christ” simply means “Jesus the anointed”.

So, do you believe that “Jesus, the Anointed One of God” came in the flesh, Nick?

Do you believe that JESUS came in the flesh? Or do you stick with your antichrist message that Jesus DIDN'T come in the flesh?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Yes God by His Spirit as God does all things

So did you hear the voice of the Spirit in the words of Jesus?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

But you offer this
“Do you believe that JESUS came in the flesh? Or do you stick with your antichrist message that Jesus DIDN'T come in the flesh? “

Why take away from scripture?
That is dangerous

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2014,14:43)

You are using the NET bible translation of proverbs 8:22 which uses the word “created”, and the KJV uses the word “possessed”, which I believe is more accurate………

From NETNotes, concerning Prov 8:22:

There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.”

The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6).

Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to quote the KJV version of those three verses they listed – side by side with a newer version, like the NIV, NET, BBE, etc.

Then we can see whether “possessed” or “created” makes more logical sense in those contexts.  (I've already looked at all three verses a number of times.  But I'd like you to see them side by side with your own eyes.)

NETNotes goes on to point out:

Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create”………..

You cannot deny the logic of that reasoning, Marty.  If the surrounding verses speak about wisdom being “born”, and “given birth” to, then “create” in verse 22 is obviously the most sensible choice…….. despite how the KJV puts it.

As for the rest of your post, it didn't really address the scriptures I posted for you, or give me any good reason to not believe them just as they were written.

Your post seemed to be more “human rationalization” from a man who has personal reasons to not accept the scriptural words in the most logical way they could be understood.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Can you see now that it was the SPIRIT that was speaking in Jn 2

Please answer

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,14:49)

Hi MB, The new creation is from the dead who are reborn

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China, Nick?

Can a person be CREATED more than one time?

Can a person be BORN more than one time?

If so, then you are a hypocrite to say a person cannot be CONCEIEVED more than one time.

Shoot, Jesus was born THREE times. Once as the firstborn of every creature, once from the womb of Mary, and once from the dead.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,15:47)

Hi MB, Jesus Christ came in the flesh. But you offer this “Do you believe that JESUS came in the flesh?  Or do you stick with your antichrist message that Jesus DIDN'T come in the flesh? “ Why take away from scripture? That is dangerous

And who exactly is “Jesus Christ”, Nick?

What does that “name” mean? (I just showed you in my last post. Let's see if you are learning anything yet………..)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,15:59)

Hi MB, Can you see now that it was the SPIRIT that was speaking in Jn 2 Please answer

No Nick…………

John 2:21
But the temple he had spoken of was his body.

Do you suppose it was the BODY of the SPIRIT that was raised up after three days?

If not, then there is another answer, right?  I know that answer.  Would you like me to share with you?

(I will, but only AFTER you concede that it was NOT the “body” of the “spirit” that was raised up, and therefore NOT the “spirit” who spoke of raising his own body up.)

[Ed J]

“In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
 Who is the image of the invisible God, the “FIRSTBORN” of every creature:”(Col 1:14-15)

---

Hi Everyone,

This verse has caused much confusion, some even believing that the word
“firstborn” is a coded message to us to mean: 'THE FIRST BEING TO BE CREATED'.

                       – but –

If we were to do 2 things, the trail ends up in the same place.

1. Follow the context
2. Look up the definition

     And in both cases the meaning is the same
“that in all things he might have the preeminence“ (Col.1:18)
Preeminence means he is the most important, does anyone disagree?

END OF STORY

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
So because he spoke of his body[ third person ] it was not the Spirit speaking through him?

So you have yet to hear the Spirit in Jesus?

Will you?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ May 25 2014,16:08)

“In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:  Who is the image of the invisible God, the “FIRSTBORN” of every creature:”(Col 1:14-15) Hi Everyone, This verse has caused much confusion, some even believing that the word “firstborn” is a coded message to us to mean: 'THE FIRST BEING TO BE CREATED'.                        – but – If we were to do 2 things, the trail ends up in the same place. 1. Follow the context 2. Look up the definition      And in both cases the meaning is the same “that in all things he might have the preeminence“ (Col.1:18) Preeminence means he is the most important, does anyone disagree? END OF STORY

Ed,

The CONTEXT is that Jesus was the firstborn of every creature……….BECAUSE……. through him, all the [other] things in heaven and on earth were created.

Don't forget the Greek “because” or “since” that Paul uses to start verse 16. The two verses are really one long statement.

Also, if anyone has “preeminence” in all things, it would be God…….. not His holy servant Jesus the Anointed.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,16:14)

Hi MB, So because he spoke of his body[ third person ] it was not the Spirit speaking through him? So you have yet to hear the Spirit in Jesus? Will you?

Nick,

Do you concede that it was NOT the “body” of the “spirit” that was raised up, and therefore NOT the “spirit” who spoke of raising his own body up?

Let me know when you concede this common sense thing. Then I will give you another possible meaning to Jesus' words.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
His body was being spoken of.
And that old battered body was raised by God through His Spirit

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
What does this mean?

“Do you suppose it was the BODY of the SPIRIT that was raised up after three days?”

Jesus was a man like you and I and had a human spirit too.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
The same Spirit of Christ can do greater works though you when you are reborn.

.John 14:12
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2014,08:57)

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2014,14:43) You are using the NET bible translation of proverbs 8:22 which uses the word “created”, and the KJV uses the word “possessed”, which I believe is more accurate……… From NETNotes, concerning Prov 8:22: There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to quote the KJV version of those three verses they listed – side by side with a newer version, like the NIV, NET, BBE, etc. Then we can see whether “possessed” or “created” makes more logical sense in those contexts.  (I've already looked at all three verses a number of times.  But I'd like you to see them side by side with your own eyes.) NETNotes goes on to point out: Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create”……….. You cannot deny the logic of that reasoning, Marty.  If the surrounding verses speak about wisdom being “born”, and “given birth” to, then “create” in verse 22 is obviously the most sensible choice…….. despite how the KJV puts it. As for the rest of your post, it didn't really address the scriptures I posted for you, or give me any good reason to not believe them just as they were written. Your post seemed to be more “human rationalization” from a man who has personal reasons to not accept the scriptural words in the most logical way they could be understood.

Hi Mike:

Scripture must be line upon line and precept upon precept.  The context of a verse of scripture may dictate that the Hebrew word translated possessed in the KJV should be translated as create, is true, but Proverbs 8 really is speaking about wisdom, and relates to Jesus, to be sure, but the God did not create wisdom, but He does possess it, and possessed it, of course, from the beginning.

I believe that what you are saying about me trying to reason away what the scriptures mean by not accepting what you are saying to me that they mean, is really what you do, Mike.  

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2014,09:37)

Quote (Ed J @ May 25 2014,16:08) “In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:  Who is the image of the invisible God, the “FIRSTBORN” of every creature:”(Col 1:14-15) Hi Everyone, This verse has caused much confusion, some even believing that the word “firstborn” is a coded message to us to mean: 'THE FIRST BEING TO BE CREATED'.                        – but – If we were to do 2 things, the trail ends up in the same place. 1. Follow the context 2. Look up the definition      And in both cases the meaning is the same “that in all things he might have the preeminence“ (Col.1:18) Preeminence means he is the most important, does anyone disagree? END OF STORY Ed, The CONTEXT is that Jesus was the firstborn of every creature……….BECAUSE……. through him, all the [other] things in heaven and on earth were created. Don't forget the Greek “because” or “since” that Paul uses to start verse 16.  The two verses are really one long statement. Also, if anyone has “preeminence” in all things, it would be God…….. not His holy servant Jesus the Anointed.

Hi Mike,

Th bible says “God” created all things ALL things A-L-O-N-E.
Will you continue to trump your understanding over plain scripture?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Rom 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

He was like us.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 25 2014,16:42)

Hi MB, His body was being spoken of. And that old battered body was raised by God through His Spirit

Nick,

Did THE SPIRIT raise up his own body in three days?

Because whoever said, “I will raise it up” was speaking about raising HIS OWN body.

John said JESUS said the words. But you aim to correct John.

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