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Well Nick,
When it is said that Jesus is the “firstborn of the dead”, we know it means he was literally the first one to die, and then be raised to eternal life.
So when it is said that Jesus is the “firstborn of EVERY CREATURE” – what is the most logical understanding?
“Firstborn of dead” = “The one born first out of all the dead”
“Firstborn of every creature” = “The one born first out of every creature that has ever lived”
The at least 4 scriptures that say God created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them THROUGH His firstborn Son Jesus is also a clue that Jesus was first, and then all others were created through that first one.
Is that what Col 1:15 says, Nick? Or is it okay to add in our own words like, “from the dead” and “new creations”?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2014,10:57) Hi WU,
He is the firstborn of every creature from the dead is he not?
Hi Nick.Yes, He is the first born of the dead.
He is the first new creature.
The first born again in spirit form.wakeup.
Hi MB,
It depends which creation.The Word became flesh.
But the Word was not a separate creation prior to then
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2014,10:53) Well Nick, When it is said that Jesus is the “firstborn of the dead”, we know it means he was literally the first one to die, and then be raised to eternal life.
So when it is said that Jesus is the “firstborn of EVERY CREATURE” – what is the most logical understanding?
“Firstborn of dead” = “The one born first out of all the dead”
“Firstborn of every creature” = “The one born first out of every creature that has ever lived”
The at least 4 scriptures that say God created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them THROUGH His firstborn Son Jesus is also a clue that Jesus was first, and then all others were created through that first one.
Mike B.How was Jesus first *BORN* in heaven?
PLease elaborate.How were the angels *BORN* in heaven?
Please elaborate.
wakeup.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2014,18:05) Hi MB,
It depends which creation.The Word became flesh.
But the Word was not a separate creation prior to then
But how can you say that when Paul said Jesus was the firstborn of EVERY creature?And then followed that statement up by telling us how ALL THINGS, whether visible or invisible, whether in heaven or on earth, were made through this firstborn one?
Which invisible being in heaven became a “new creation” after Jesus was raised from the dead? I can't think of any.
So if verse 16 refers to ALL things, and not just NEW things, then chances are that verse 15 refers literally to EVERY creature – just like it clearly says.
It seems you are adding a teaching from one place into another – because you don't like what is being taught in that other place.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 12 2014,18:35) Mike B. How was Jesus first *BORN* in heaven?
PLease elaborate.How were the angels *BORN* in heaven?
Please elaborate.
wakeup.
Wakeup,How was Albert Einstein able to GIVE BIRTH to the theory of relativity?
The words “born” and “begotten” can refer to anything that is brought forth into existence, Wakeup.
The sexual reproduction of human beings does not have exclusive rights to the word “born”.
Psalms 90:2
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.How are mountains “born”? How did God “give birth” to the earth?
Don't get hung up on the word “born”, Wakeup. It doesn't apply only to flesh beings.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2014,14:50) Quote (Wakeup @ May 12 2014,18:35) Mike B. How was Jesus first *BORN* in heaven?
PLease elaborate.How were the angels *BORN* in heaven?
Please elaborate.
wakeup.
Wakeup,How was Albert Einstein able to GIVE BIRTH to the theory of relativity?
The words “born” and “begotten” can refer to anything that is brought forth into existence, Wakeup.
The sexual reproduction of human beings does not have exclusive rights to the word “born”.
Psalms 90:2
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.How are mountains “born”? How did God “give birth” to the earth?
Don't get hung up on the word “born”, Wakeup. It doesn't apply only to flesh beings.
MikeB.You should know that is symbolically speaking.
Not physical birth.
God created angels; he did not give birth to angels.
Man create cars;dont give birth to cars.
Only mothers can give birth.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 14 2014,01:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2014,14:50)
Psalms 90:2
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.
MikeB.You should know that is symbolically speaking.
God created angels; he did not give birth to angels.
God also “created” mountains and “created” the earth. But it is also said IN SCRIPTURE that the mountains were “BORN”, and that God “GAVE BIRTH” to the earth.Likewise, Jesus is many times in scripture said to have been CREATED by God. He is also said to have been “born” and “begotten” by God.
Jesus is the “firstborn” among many spirit sons of God, Wakeup. And the fact that he is the “FIRSTborn” implies that the others were also “born”, right?
Just like the fact that Jesus is the “FIRSTborn” from the dead implies that there will also be others who are “born” from the dead.
Will you now ask me how “death” can “give birth” to someone?
Like I said, don't get hung up on the word “born”. Jesus is the creature that God created first. He was the beginning of God's creation. God created him as the first of His works – long before the mountains were “born”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2014,21:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2014,18:05) Hi MB,
It depends which creation.The Word became flesh.
But the Word was not a separate creation prior to then
But how can you say that when Paul said Jesus was the firstborn of EVERY creature?And then followed that statement up by telling us how ALL THINGS, whether visible or invisible, whether in heaven or on earth, were made through this firstborn one?
Which invisible being in heaven became a “new creation” after Jesus was raised from the dead? I can't think of any.
So if verse 16 refers to ALL things, and not just NEW things, then chances are that verse 15 refers literally to EVERY creature – just like it clearly says.
It seems you are adding a teaching from one place into another – because you don't like what is being taught in that other place.
Nick? No response?Hi MB,
Col 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
The Spirit creates all things. ps 104.30
In the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ.Hi MB,
By being made one with the Spirit Jesus has inherited all the history of the works of that Spirit.Hi MB,
But it does not mean he was the first to be created but he has acquired the rights of the firstborn Son.
He inherits all
Hebrews 1:4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they
.Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.Hi MB,
Rom 8
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.This applies to Jesus too=after the Jordan
Lk4
4 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 15 2014,13:52) Quote (Wakeup @ May 14 2014,01:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2014,14:50)
Psalms 90:2
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.
MikeB.You should know that is symbolically speaking.
God created angels; he did not give birth to angels.
God also “created” mountains and “created” the earth. But it is also said IN SCRIPTURE that the mountains were “BORN”, and that God “GAVE BIRTH” to the earth.Likewise, Jesus is many times in scripture said to have been CREATED by God. He is also said to have been “born” and “begotten” by God.
Jesus is the “firstborn” among many spirit sons of God, Wakeup. And the fact that he is the “FIRSTborn” implies that the others were also “born”, right?
Just like the fact that Jesus is the “FIRSTborn” from the dead implies that there will also be others who are “born” from the dead.
Will you now ask me how “death” can “give birth” to someone?
Like I said, don't get hung up on the word “born”. Jesus is the creature that God created first. He was the beginning of God's creation. God created him as the first of His works – long before the mountains were “born”.
MikeB.You are ignoring an important scripture.
It says this:
**WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE**.
To except your believe, one has to disregard those words.
To me: Not anything, really means not anything.
To you: Not anything, could mean what ever you think it should mean.Depending on what you had for dinner the night before.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 15 2014,00:10) MikeB. You are ignoring an important scripture.
It says this:
**WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE**.
This is like deja vu! I just answered this in the other post.Wakeup, scripture says that ALL things came from God. Does that mean God Himself “came from God”?
Use discernment when reading the scriptures, okay?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2014,21:03) Hi MB,
By being made one with the Spirit, Jesus has inherited all the history of the works of that Spirit.
So, because Jesus inherited the Spirit, we can now attribute every thing the Spirit has ever done to Jesus?
So then it was Jesus who was hovering over the waters in Genesis 1:2?
Are you sure, Nick?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 14 2014,21:07) Hi MB, But it does not mean he was the first to be created but he has acquired the rights of the firstborn Son.
Yes, the word “firstborn” can be used metaphorically. But it has as its DEFAULT meaning: the one born first.We know of the metaphorical uses only by context. Like when someone was said to have been GIVEN the firstborn's rights. But without such context, the default meaning will always apply.
So where is the “metaphorical context” in Col 1:15? Or when Jesus is called “God's firstborn Son”? There is none that I know of.
Consider “firstborn from the dead”. There is no “metaphorical context” to consider concerning that statement, so the default meaning will apply, right? Therefore it means, “the first one to have been born again after being dead”, right?
So sans “metaphorical context”, we should also understand “firstborn of every creature” in its default sense, which would mean that Jesus was “the first one to have been born out of everything that has ever been created by God”.
There is no VALID reason to understand it differently. There are, however, PERSONAL reasons.
But if you put Col 1:15 in context with 1:16, Paul is saying that Jesus was obviously the first one born, since all other things were subsequently created through him.
If he wasn't already in existence, then all those visible and invisible things in heaven and on earth couldn't have been created THROUGH him.
Revelation 3:14 also says Jesus was the “beginning of the creation by God”. That is some serious support.
And there are at least 4 different scriptures that say all things were created through Jesus. Even more support.
But 1 Corinthians 8:6 really says it all, because the “all things” that came from God are the same exact “all things” that also came through Jesus.
So, you have no valid reason to suspect that the “all things in heaven and on earth” from Col 1:16 are only “new creations”. Nor could you ever prove such a thing, since there is no scriptural teaching about invisible beings in heaven becoming “new creations” because of what Jesus did. (Please address that point this time.)
And you definitely have no valid reason to suspect that the “all things that came from God” in 1 Cor 8:6 are only “new creations”.
You keep wanting to INSERT that word “new” into those teachings……. but you have no VALID reason to do so.
Nick, what is included in the “all things” that came from God in 1 Cor 8:6? Just “new creations”? Or literally “all things”, like it says?
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