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Mike,
I wrote you an example of past-present, or present-past:
'He whom does not believe he can win the race has already lost it'
Think about it!!Condemned… The condemndenation is at the Judgement. This is the FINAL Condemntion and Jesus is saying that it is AS IF they are Already Condemned.
Fractals: The thief on the cross who repented… Was SAVED from before he evens even Judged. Hence Jesus said to him, 'I tell you this day, You will be in Paradise with me'
Those who are abuse the Holy Spirit, are likewise 'Already condemned' – their condemnation is CERTAIN and without Redemption (Stuart – try to see the true point of view before it is too late)
Mike, I really think you are struggling against reality with this one!
No one is ACTUALLY JUDGED before time but some who are preDestined to be condemned – are AS IF ALREADY JUDGED – Their destruction is a matter of certainty (Like the Demon Angels and Satan).
Jesus Christ, as King in his father's kingdom, WILL be the [Head] Judge on behalf of his Father (For the Father judges no one but puts all things into the hands of the Son)
The other example you give are not valid examples and I fail to see why you include them. Have you asked anyone about it because I think you are making too much of an issue over a clear and apparent error in your reading and understanding…
Hi Istari,
Let's just let it go then. Because you could show 1000 examples of “past-present” or “future-past”, but it wouldn't make scripture #1001 automatically also a “past-present” or “future-past” scenario. For example, Jesus didn't tell the thief that he'd be with him in paradise THAT SAME DAY, for Jesus didn't go to paradise that day. Jesus was saying, “TODAY I'M TELLING YOU that [someday] you'll be with me in paradise.”
But that is neither here nor there, because even with your understanding of that scripture, it wouldn't mean that 3:18 is also one of the “future-past” situations, would it?
I mentioned that you could find 1000 of them and it still wouldn't matter, but the fact of the matter is that there are MAYBE 2 or 3 of them in all of scripture. And I say “maybe” because one has to want to interpret it that way for it to be one of those weird tense situations. So that's 2 or 3 possible “future-past” wordings compared to thousands of “present-present”, “past-past”, and “future-future” wordings. Look at all the times Jesus speaks of coming on the clouds, or coming in glory, or being handed over to the Gentiles, etc. He is always speaking in the present using future tense words to describe things that ARE TO BE but have not yet happened. Similarly, he speaks of many things from the past using past tense words.
So when 3:18 clearly says that the ones who have ALREADY not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God have ALREADY been condmned for their disbelief, I take it as it is spoken. I have no reason to imagine Jesus is speaking in a “future-past” tense, because I have no bias I'm trying to fulfill.
And this is also true of 3:16,
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.I don't have to imagine that Jesus is speaking of the only begotten Son he someday WILL BE in a “present to future to past” tense, because I have no bias to fulfill.
And when John tells us…………
1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.…………that God SENT His (presumably already) only begotten Son INTO the world, and I know that this Son has only come INTO THE WORLD once so far, I don't have to imagine that John is really saying that God sent His “regular son” into the world, who has SINCE been begotten, because I have no bias I need to make the scriptures form around.
Do you see what awkward “tense situations” you must imagine in these clearly written scriptures just to fulfill your own bias? I don't have that problem. I can take them as they are written without any “anomalies”, as you put it.
And I can read this one……………
John 1:14 (King James Version)
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.…………….without imagining the “we” John mentioned beheld this glory AFTER he was raised to heaven, when only Stephen is ever mentioned SEEING Jesus after he was raised. John had a vision and Paul was blinded by bright light, but only Stephen is said to have seen Jesus after he was raised to heaven. And even if you want to count Paul being blinded and John's vision, I don't think John's use of “we” included only those three people. I think it includes any of the believers who ever laid eyes on Jesus during his ministry on earth.
You suggested that I ask some “non-involved” person to make sure I'm “on the right track”, so to speak. But seriously, I think you and Jack and Keith are the only ones in the world who think Jesus was begotten when he was raised to heaven. I've never heard it preached in any church, not one of the early church fathers ever shared this idea of yours, and everyone I know EXCEPT for you three understands that Jesus was begotten before he was raised. Even the non-preexisters think he was begotten on earth, not when he was raised.
So I suggest that YOU take those scriptures I've posted above, write them down on paper, and show them to some people you've never discussed scripture with. Let those people read the scriptures and then ask them one simple question: “Was Jesus the only begotten Son of God when he was on the earth?”
You may be surprised at the answers you get from people who have no bias they're trying to form the scriptures around.
peace,
mikeMike,
Just responding to your first point.Can you re-read what I said concerning the thief…and what I have rewritten elsewhere and always believed… I said:: 'I tell you this day,….'.
Mike, do you see the comma, the separating vocal pause… Yes, Mike, I said what you are saying.See Mike, you argue with someone even when they are AGREEING WITH YOU!!
Why, Mike, Why?I even explained, and not for the first time: Jesus was telling the thief that because of his belief, even as he was about to die for his sins, because he believed that Jesus was the Son of God, he was saved to Paradise earth EVEN BEFORE THE JUDGEMENT. The man will be in the second resurrection but – don't worry, your life on earth (not in heaven) is secured because of your belief…
Mike, how do you read what I wrote and make such errors… Does this suggest problems elsewhere on your thought patterning and reasoning ability hence your continual debate with everyone on every issue – mike, there is no desire for unity in your arguments!Mike,
WJ has no views on when Jesus was Begotten. He is only following Jack to back him up against you.WJ has never expressed a view by his own argument.
Your line of argument here suggests you have reached the end of your line. I see you used that point of argument before. Being the ONLY ONE WHO says a particular thing DOES NOT MAKE ONE WRONG.
How many people believed that the earth was at the centre of the solar system and that ONE MAN said 'no, not so'.
How many people in Sodom and Gomorrah said the behaviour was ungodly: One man, Lot.
How many people believed God was about to flood the world: One Man, Noah.
How many people knew the truth of God…One Man from God, Jesus.Popularity has it's place… But can also it's own downfall.
Mike and Istari,
Permit me to clear something for you.I hope!! I feel that all this talking with regards to the tenses is nonsense for the simple reason that since you are reading modern scripture you will never get the right spirtual understanding or interpretation,because modern scripture are interested more in the gramar than in the right translation from the Jewish or Greek.I personaly refer to K.J.V and also to D.R.V (Douay-Rheims version) because the first ever english version was D.R.V and then K.J.V These bibles especialy the one I have of D.R.V is very old and also there are parts missing in the K.J.V .Reading these Bibles you concentrate definately on the bible message and it is very important to refer always to the interliner for the Jewish and Greek meanings within the concordance otherwise you will completely loose track of the proper message .Also you should realy go deep within each word because for example when Jesus is the firstborn of every creature it means that during creation Jesus was the first born of every creature which means that during the evolution Jesus through the Spirit created the first ever creature no matter what it was.That's why there is the missing link in the evolution system because as it is now more evident that it was something instant and sudden during the process it is well said in the scripture that the spirit that quicken which means the Spirit which creates that sudden change which is neccessary to have so many different creatures and Jesus is the craftsman and the Father is the designer.
Quote (csaliba @ April 13 2011,06:33) Mike and Istari, Permit me to clear something for you.I hope!! I feel that all this talking with regards to the tenses is nonsense for the simple reason that since you are reading modern scripture you will never get the right spirtual understanding or interpretation,because modern scripture are interested more in the gramar than in the right translation from the Jewish or Greek.I personaly refer to K.J.V and also to D.R.V (Douay-Rheims version) because the first ever english version was D.R.V and then K.J.V These bibles especialy the one I have of D.R.V is very old and also there are parts missing in the K.J.V .Reading these Bibles you concentrate definately on the bible message and it is very important to refer always to the interliner for the Jewish and Greek meanings within the concordance otherwise you will completely loose track of the proper message .Also you should realy go deep within each word because for example when Jesus is the firstborn of every creature it means that during creation Jesus was the first born of every creature which means that during the evolution Jesus through the Spirit created the first ever creature no matter what it was.That's why there is the missing link in the evolution system because as it is now more evident that it was something instant and sudden during the process it is well said in the scripture that the spirit that quicken which means the Spirit which creates that sudden change which is neccessary to have so many different creatures and Jesus is the craftsman and the Father is the designer.
Wow, first of all , welcome to Heaven Net. Then I don't know were you got that from, that creation was in a twinkle of an eye. Is that what you are saying??? It took millions of years to form this earth. Don't you ever watch the History Channel? Great stuff. Do you know anything about the gap theory? I did not know about this either, until Kathie made me aware of it. One day I said, I wonder why God created the earth a void and dark place. Then we know that it took so long to create this Earth. So I wonder that in Genesis God recreated this earth so we can live on it. That is considered the gap theory….
We however those who will be Spirit Beings at the end time will be changed in a twinkle of the eye….We use the KJV of the Bible. Also my Husband uses the Rye Study Bible of KJ, which has footnotes. What is missing in the KJV?
Also are you saying that Jesus created Himself??? Am I reading this right?
And we have a Strong's Concordance…
I hope you answer all my question, please!!!!!
IMO
Peace and Love IreneHello csaliba,
I'm not quite sure what you just said but I have said before and say again that the Gospel of John contains anomalies…
John writes from AFTER the RISEN CHRIST therefore he refers to things pertaining to Jesus from their ALREADY HAVING OCCURED.
This is born out by the fact that the Gospel of John is the ONLY writing that calls Jesus 'Only Begotten Son of God', everyone else, and Jesus himself, says, 'Son of God' (And Son of man)!Mike is creating errors of interpretation and even finding verses misread from some obscure translation to try and validate his point ( In the same way he says that CELESTIAL BODIES are Spirits in Heaven, when Paul in the Corinthians clearly and correctly lists them as SUN MOON AND STARS, And he changes SPIRITUAL BODY to SPIRIT BODY…because reality is not enough for him. Mike never backs down, he finds a SLIDE with a long shallow drop and comes down so slowly you hardly realise he is coming down. Then he claims he was never 'up there'…neat deception move – but not with me!!
Quote (Istari @ April 12 2011,01:43) he was saved to Paradise earth EVEN BEFORE THE JUDGEMENT.
Istari,I see you have resorted back to your usual belittlements and insults, as if they make the point for you that your arguments cannot.
John 3:18 (King James Version)
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Here is the one and only scripture I even need to prove my case. There is absolutely nothing in scripture to suggest that Jesus was speaking in a “present-to-future-to-past” tense here. The human being Jesus was simply speaking of those who had already not believed in his name – the name of the only begotten Son of God.
As I see it, you only have four choices now:
1. You can imagine that Jesus was speaking in some weird tense in order to make 3:18 form around your preconceived ideas, and just keep claiming that imagination as fact.
2. You can show me the SCRIPTURAL evidence (one scripture at a time, please) that Jesus was speaking in a weird tense in 3:18, thereby attempting to scripturally prove and/or support your understanding.
3. You can insult me personally, pretending that those insults are actually solid scriptural points you've made.
4. You can agree to disagree with me on this point, and walk away.mike
Quote (csaliba @ April 12 2011,13:33) Jesus is the craftsman and the Father is the designer.
Hi C,The Father takes all credit for all of creation. Everything came FROM the Father THROUGH His only begotten Son. What exact role Jesus played is uncertain, but we can't ignore the scriptures that say YHWH ALONE created.
mike
Quote (csaliba @ April 12 2011,14:33) Mike and Istari, Permit me to clear something for you.I hope!! I feel that all this talking with regards to the tenses is nonsense for the simple reason that since you are reading modern scripture you will never get the right spirtual understanding or interpretation,because modern scripture are interested more in the gramar than in the right translation from the Jewish or Greek.I personaly refer to K.J.V and also to D.R.V (Douay-Rheims version) because the first ever english version was D.R.V and then K.J.V These bibles especialy the one I have of D.R.V is very old and also there are parts missing in the K.J.V .Reading these Bibles you concentrate definately on the bible message and it is very important to refer always to the interliner for the Jewish and Greek meanings within the concordance otherwise you will completely loose track of the proper message .Also you should realy go deep within each word because for example when Jesus is the firstborn of every creature it means that during creation Jesus was the first born of every creature which means that during the evolution Jesus through the Spirit created the first ever creature no matter what it was.That's why there is the missing link in the evolution system because as it is now more evident that it was something instant and sudden during the process it is well said in the scripture that the spirit that quicken which means the Spirit which creates that sudden change which is neccessary to have so many different creatures and Jesus is the craftsman and the Father is the designer.
Welcome csaliba,It will be interesting to see you expand on the 'firstborn of every creature.'
I agree that through the Son, all beings were created.
I hope you enjoy it here.
KathiRegarding the idea of the Father creating through the Son and then claiming the act as creator:
I found this interesting, it was in the story of Jacob, Leah and Rachel. Rachel was barren and decided to have a son THROUGH her maid whom she gave to her husband to impregnate. Rachel, after her maid gave birth, claimed the child as HER (Rachel's) son.
Genesis 30:1-7
1Now when Rachel saw that she bore Jacob no children, she became jealous of her sister; and she said to Jacob, “Give me children, or else I die.” 2Then Jacob’s anger burned against Rachel, and he said, “Am I in the place of God, who has withheld from you the fruit of the womb?” 3She said, “Here is my maid Bilhah, go in to her that she may bear on my knees, that through her I too may have children.” 4So she gave him her maid Bilhah as a wife, and Jacob went in to her. 5Bilhah conceived and bore Jacob a son. 6Then Rachel said, “God has vindicated me, and has indeed heard my voice and has given me a son.” Therefore she named him Dan. 7Rachel’s maid Bilhah conceived again and bore Jacob a second son. 8So Rachel said, “With mighty wrestlings I have wrestled with my sister, and I have indeed prevailed.” And she named him Naphtali.So this is an example of a sense of 'creating' through another where the other does ALL the work…Rachel just gave the word, the maid did all the work (with a little help from Jacob
)
Rachel claims the son as her own. Rachel was in authority so I suppose that is why she gets to claim the results…interesting.Kathi
Hi Kathi,
That is a good take on it. We KNOW from scripture that all things came FROM God and THROUGH Jesus, but beyond that, we don't really have a clue as to how “hands on” Jesus really was.
We only know that as the “Authority Figure”, his Father demands all the credit for all of creation…………..ALONE, even though Jesus presumably played a major part.
Good thinking with that comparison.
mike
Quote (Istari @ April 12 2011,21:54) Being the ONLY ONE WHO says a particular thing DOES NOT MAKE ONE WRONG.
How many people believed that the earth was at the centre of the solar system and that ONE MAN said 'no, not so'.
How many people in Sodom and Gomorrah said the behaviour was ungodly: One man, Lot.
How many people believed God was about to flood the world: One Man, Noah.
How many people knew the truth of God…One Man from God, Jesus.
Jay, you were smiling. Don't stop. God loves you. And I do too. And I love what you wrote here too.Kar,
I smile at every revelation and thank my God and your God, and my Spiritual Father and your Spiritual Father, for those revelation and wisdom of understanding through his Son Jesus Christ, ourord and reigning king.My sadness is that others, Mikeboll in particular, has not been so profitably blessed.
Oh, and I love you, too!
Quote (Lightenup @ April 11 2011,06:52) Istari,
Jesus, according to the flesh was led by the Spirit. After He was risen, according to His flesh, He received the ok to give the Father's Spirit, together with the Spirit of the Son so that they would both dwell within the believers…by their spirit called 'the Comforter.'
KathiKathi, are you telling me, suggesting to me, or agreeing with me concerning Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
If you are TELLING ME, then you have clearly missed the fact that that is exactly what I said.
If you are suggesting, then you have clearly missed the fact that that was exactly what I said.
If you are agreeing with me then you have missed the opportunity to forge a relationship on this issue.Never the less – whether or nether – that is what I was saying and I am glad that you write the same.
Mike, there's a question I have asked up in feedback. Seeing your a moderator. I'm still waiting for an answer. Thanks.
Quote (Istari @ April 14 2011,07:06) Kar,
I smile at every revelation and thank my God and your God, and my Spiritual Father and your Spiritual Father, for those revelation and wisdom of understanding through his Son Jesus Christ, ourord and reigning king.My sadness is that others, Mikeboll in particular, has not been so profitably blessed.
Oh, and I love you, too!
Come on, you don't know that. Just because He doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean He is not blessed!!!! How do we know, what any member does outside of HN. and how blessed one is….
The tables could turn too….. I don't know how old you are, but the older you get, the more you are blessed. What you sow as a youngster, you will reap as an elder. Being 72 I know……
keep on being nice OK.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Istari @ April 13 2011,14:06) My sadness is that others, Mikeboll in particular, has not been so profitably blessed.
Istari,Is that your way of saying you DON'T have any scriptural support to show that Jesus was talking in some weird present-to-future-to-past tense in John 3:18?
Test all things……….against the scriptures themselves.
mike
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