- This topic has 3,676 replies, 33 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 9 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 05 2011,09:36) Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2011,17:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 04 2011,15:41) Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2011,14:30) Or 'today' could be according to eternity where there is only today, just an eternal one.
Do you have a scripture for that because “yown” is the first time days are mentioned and it is mentioned as the “first day” in Genesis.Does the word “first” mean anything?
WJ
Keith,
It tells us that there is only day in eternity…no more nights.NASB
Is 60:19
“No longer will you have the sun for light by day, Nor for brightness will the moon give you light; But you will have the LORD for an everlasting light, And your God for your glory.Revelation 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
Revelation 22:5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
Gill writes:
Quote and this clear light will continue for ever; there will be no more night, but one everlasting day: http://bible.cc/isaiah/60-19.htm
Kathi
KathiPlease address my points.
Was Jesus there before “day” (yowm) one?
When was “day” (yowm) one in scriptures?
Where is the scripture for your assumption?
WJ
Keith,
Jesus is the name of the person who is 100% God and 100% man. That person was conceived in Mary when He became flesh. That person named Jesus who was a man and God, did not exist until about 2000 years ago. The God that became flesh and was then named Jesus existed from eternity as the Son of God, first within the Father, then was begotten as the firstborn of all creation who came from the Father. Col 1:15.Day one, according to the earth was Gen 1:3.
Eternal time has always existed because God has existed eternally.Kathi,
Only asking, not debating:
How is it that no one has ever taught that God incubated 'He who was to become Jesus' inside himself before birthing him (Since God is considered to be MALE who gave birth to The Son and who Begot him?)In all the debates that have gone on in this forum how is it it is only in recent threads that this idea has arisen in your mind – a revelation, maybe?
And, which Scriptures supports your theory?
Thank you.
Kathi! Have you ever wondered why so many Scientists say that this world existed longer then 2000 years?
Consider this, when Satan was thrown down to earth and those Angels that followed Him. they made a mess out of this planet. I often wondered why God created a dark and void Earth? And the Angels shouted for joy? I think that in Genesis God recreated this Earth for us to live in….Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, [as] a master craftsman, and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;
I think these verses are talking about Jesus. most think this is wisdom being born, I don't. God always was wise, He didn't have to create it first…..All very much my imagination of course. But could it be true? I guess one day we will know…../
Peace and Love IreneHiYa Baker.
Quote PS My Aunts name was Sophia…..is that your real name???
And welcome to this site….
Yes, Sophia.^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hi IS,
Quote Like Gandalf falling down alongside the hideous Balrok into the endless chasm (Lord of the Rings) the truth giver is drawn down with the false speaker in Spiritual battle.
Stick with Scripture…. NOT Fantasy Dear!!
Can you match up anything you do WITH Scripture Please?Quote (Istari @ April 06 2011,01:51) Hi Sophia, As always, truth is a double edged sword…
It is certainly true what you say – and it certainly applies to many here (no names from any you mentioned – or could be all)
However, often what seems like those things you mention are seen that way because the observer is not knowledgeable about the subject and cannot see the refinements required to lock down a point of Scriptures.
Of course, the main problem is when one side of the sword meets the other:
The arrogant, unyielding, disingenuous poster meets a true Truth seeker (or truth giver)!Like Gandalf falling down alongside the hideous Balrok into the endless chasm (Lord of the Rings) the truth giver is drawn down with the false speaker in Spiritual battle.
Fear of admitting wrongful thinking draws the false speaker to 'toy' with the truth speaker just to annoy them.
How does the false speaker feel as he knowingly makes his false claims?
He feels good that he (Feels that he) has avoided detection of his deceit – and in some cases he has avoided detection because the truth speaker is not observant enough. In other cases the truth speaker is drawn away from the point at hand by a Wiley post.
There is one other reaction from the false speaker…He gets angry and flings back accusations of 'civil liberties…: His right to be wrong. And how dare you try and teach him truth when you don't know ALL TRUTH yourself. And, I don't like the way you said what you said – you weren't nice to me….
In other words, rather than focus on the truth that is given by the truth speaker they focus on ANY KIND OF REAL OR PERCEIVED NEGATIVITY they can see in the truth speakers post…
Of course, this is smoke screening… Emotional intimidation … but no one will ever tell off a person who is [falsely] claiming to have been emotionally upset, will they!!As far as I can see there is only one extremely hard thing for a truth speaker to do and that is to accept a disreputable answer as a sign of truth on themselves. The false speaker will never admit they spoke falsely nor that the other spoke truth so it must be accepted in oneself.
Of course, seeing your good seed fall on fallow ground is not easy to take but Satan is also aware of this failing in human nature and will exploit it – seek comfort in Gods Holy Spirit.(p.s. Why do we say, 'The Holy Spirit of God' and 'The Son of God' but never 'The Father of God'?)
Good stuff Istari.Hi Sophia,
Lord of the Rings is taken from Scriptures… Perhaps it's because you dont understand the underlying stickpins of the film…
Moreover, even if it were not, can you not just discern the links.How do you reconcile Fractal Scriptures, repeated themes, in Scriptures that qualify each other as the truth. To wit: act as error correctors for when man tries to corrupt the Scriptutes?
Please see the thread on 'Fractals…' for better insight.
Others in this forum will tell you, also, that I do not [especially] post Scriptire verses.
If you understand enough of Scriptures then you will know where things come from and/or what they are related to…
Perhaps I should take that back – and apologise to those who are not so versed in the verses!Verses, quotes, references, etc, will be supplied on request or as appropriate.
Was there something you were unfamiliar with in what I said or need clarification on?
Irene,
From what I understand, you and Georg believe in a 'gap theory' where the heavens and the earth were a perfect creation and then something happened involving satan and other angels, then the heavens and the earth became a chaotic mess. Well, that is a theory but I don't believe that is what the Bible is telling us and neither do the NET Bible scholars. This is what they say about that:7 tn Traditional translations have followed a more literal rendering of “waste and void.” The words describe a condition that is without form and empty. What we now know as “the earth” was actually an unfilled mass covered by water and darkness. Later תֹהוּ (tohu) and בֹּהוּ (bohu), when used in proximity, describe a situation resulting from judgment (Isa 34:11; Jer 4:23). Both prophets may be picturing judgment as the reversal of creation in which God’s judgment causes the world to revert to its primordial condition. This later use of the terms has led some to conclude that Gen 1:2 presupposes the judgment of a prior world, but it is unsound method to read the later application of the imagery (in a context of judgment) back into Gen 1:2.
I do think that the verses that you put up in Prov. 8 are about the wisdom of God as found in the recently begotten God, the Son of God.
Kathi
Quote (Istari @ April 05 2011,12:50) Kathi,
Only asking, not debating:
How is it that no one has ever taught that God incubated 'He who was to become Jesus' inside himself before birthing him (Since God is considered to be MALE who gave birth to The Son and who Begot him?)In all the debates that have gone on in this forum how is it it is only in recent threads that this idea has arisen in your mind – a revelation, maybe?
And, which Scriptures supports your theory?
Thank you.
Istari,I have never used the term 'incubating' so I do not know why you used that word. I do not know if the Son, when He was within the Father, was as person as an eternal incorruptible seed, or mature like the Father or somewhere in between. I just think that He was always a person within the Father, always had the exact same nature as the Father, and probably when God said “Let there be light,” was begotten from the Father to work alongside the Father.
You ask about the maleness of God. God is likely genderless or has male traits and female traits or something else, idk. Anyway, I believe He had His Son within Him and also beget Him before the ages. He is able to do things beyond what we can do. If He is male, He is a male spirit being and we cannot evaluate how He would have an offspring within Him by merely comparing Him to fleshly males.
Jesus said that He was 'from' the Father. Paul said that He was the firstborn of all creation and by that firstborn, all things were created in heaven and on earth. The Bible is clear that God sent His only begotten Son into the world and that the Greater sent the Lessor. The Bible is also clear that His nature represents the Father's nature exactly and He is called God. John 1:18 uses the term 'begotten God.'
I did have a unique time of learning this about 18 years ago and have since refined my understanding of that. I heard a whisper clearly once when I was teaching my son about the days of creation. A month before that whisper, I was confronted by JW's as to the meaning of 'firstborn of all creation' and I didn't know what it meant. I asked God to show me the true meaning and laid down any past understanding. I started reading my Bible, searching for understanding and it was like scales lifted from my eyes and I saw the emphasis of Jesus being the Son of God. That truth came alive to me and it was a most unusually spiritual time in my life. He really was the Son of God, the literal Son of God, born first of all creation.
Back to the whisper…when I was reviewing with my son the days of creation, which was a part of our home schooling curriculum, I asked him what happened on day one. He answered, “God said 'Let there be light'.” At that moment, I clearly heard the whisper, and it was “You are the light of the world.”
And that is why I believe that 'firstborn' means born when God said, “Let there be light.”So, as far as scriptures that seem to support that:
Gen 1:3
Col 1:15+
John 1:1-18
Prov 8
John 3:16
Heb 1
and others…and also reasoning.Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 06 2011,11:35) Irene,
From what I understand, you and Georg believe in a 'gap theory' where the heavens and the earth were a perfect creation and then something happened involving satan and other angels, then the heavens and the earth became a chaotic mess. Well, that is a theory but I don't believe that is what the Bible is telling us and neither do the NET Bible scholars. This is what they say about that:7 tn Traditional translations have followed a more literal rendering of “waste and void.” The words describe a condition that is without form and empty. What we now know as “the earth” was actually an unfilled mass covered by water and darkness. Later תֹהוּ (tohu) and בֹּהוּ (bohu), when used in proximity, describe a situation resulting from judgment (Isa 34:11; Jer 4:23). Both prophets may be picturing judgment as the reversal of creation in which God’s judgment causes the world to revert to its primordial condition. This later use of the terms has led some to conclude that Gen 1:2 presupposes the judgment of a prior world, but it is unsound method to read the later application of the imagery (in a context of judgment) back into Gen 1:2.
I do think that the verses that you put up in Prov. 8 are about the wisdom of God as found in the recently begotten God, the Son of God.
Kathi
No, I can't prove it 100%, but I often wonder why God would create a world that was dark and void. I only know that Satan was already in paradise when Adam and Eve sinned. How long, is not revealed.
I also didn't know that the gap theory is what I wonder. I am surprised how many have believed this.
That even Thomas Chalmers who lived in the 18 century is responsible for that theory. Interesting, but whether it is true or not, who knows except God…. time will tell…..
Peace and Love IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ April 05 2011,08:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2011,20:03) I would like to know how Jesus already had the glory of an ONLY BEGOTTEN Son from the Father when he was flesh if he wasn't “begotten” until after he died.
Sure MikeAs soon as you can show us a scripture that says his Glory as the Only begotten Son was before he came in the flesh.
WJ
I showed you one that says he had that glory WHILE he was flesh. Isn't that enough to make you see he wasn't begotten when he was raised from the dead?mike
Quote (Istari @ April 05 2011,08:51) The false speaker will never admit they spoke falsely nor that the other spoke truth so it must be accepted in oneself.
Yeah, you could just live with it. Or you could start a poll exposing the false speaking like I did. Maybe a little spotlight on the subject will make them think twice the next time.mike
Quote (Istari @ April 06 2011,10:44) Hi Sophia,
Lord of the Rings is taken from Scriptures… Perhaps it's because you dont understand the underlying stickpins of the film…
Moreover, even if it were not, can you not just discern the links.How do you reconcile Fractal Scriptures, repeated themes, in Scriptures that qualify each other as the truth. To wit: act as error correctors for when man tries to corrupt the Scriptutes?
Please see the thread on 'Fractals…' for better insight.
Others in this forum will tell you, also, that I do not [especially] post Scriptire verses.
If you understand enough of Scriptures then you will know where things come from and/or what they are related to…
Perhaps I should take that back – and apologise to those who are not so versed in the verses!Verses, quotes, references, etc, will be supplied on request or as appropriate.
Was there something you were unfamiliar with in what I said or need clarification on?
IS,
ThankYOU.=============
Fractals (Repeated Themes). Did some thinking.
[FirstBorn of/over All of Creation]Adam: FirstBorn out of the Earth
Noah: First “Born” (saved) out of the (Water)
Jesus: FirstBorn (Out of the Dead)….& (on) into the Heavenly.
Therefore, FirstBorn of ALL of Creation [From the Earth, into the Heavenly….All of Creation…FristBorn OF].?
Quote (Sophia @ April 06 2011,17:49) Quote (Istari @ April 06 2011,10:44) Hi Sophia,
Lord of the Rings is taken from Scriptures… Perhaps it's because you dont understand the underlying stickpins of the film…
Moreover, even if it were not, can you not just discern the links.How do you reconcile Fractal Scriptures, repeated themes, in Scriptures that qualify each other as the truth. To wit: act as error correctors for when man tries to corrupt the Scriptutes?
Please see the thread on 'Fractals…' for better insight.
Others in this forum will tell you, also, that I do not [especially] post Scriptire verses.
If you understand enough of Scriptures then you will know where things come from and/or what they are related to…
Perhaps I should take that back – and apologise to those who are not so versed in the verses!Verses, quotes, references, etc, will be supplied on request or as appropriate.
Was there something you were unfamiliar with in what I said or need clarification on?
IS,
ThankYOU.=============
Fractals (Repeated Themes). Did some thinking.
[FirstBorn of/over All of Creation]Adam: FirstBorn out of the Earth
Noah: First “Born” (saved) out of the (Water)
Jesus: FirstBorn (Out of the Dead)….& (on) into the Heavenly.
Therefore, FirstBorn of ALL of Creation [From the Earth, into the Heavenly….All of Creation…FristBorn OF].?
Sophia! Jesus not only was the firstborn of the dead. He was also the firstborn of the beginning of the creation of God.Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
and verse 18 shows us that Jesus is the firstborn from the death.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
And in Rev. it says Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God…..
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
If you say anything different what Scriptures really say, you adding. That we are not to do….Jesus was in Heaven before the world was. by Jesus own words He said that He came down from Heaven. Not that He first was a man, and then went to Heaven like you said…..
One more thing, why don't you like to give Scriptures? I like to give it to prove my point. Thess. tells us to prove all things…1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Istari @ April 06 2011,04:50) Kathi,
Only asking, not debating:
How is it that no one has ever taught that God incubated 'He who was to become Jesus' inside himself before birthing him (Since God is considered to be MALE who gave birth to The Son and who Begot him?)In all the debates that have gone on in this forum how is it it is only in recent threads that this idea has arisen in your mind – a revelation, maybe?
And, which Scriptures supports your theory?
Thank you.
Hi JA,Kathi's problem is that she takes the words 'begotten' and 'firstborn' in reference to Jesus in the natural sense. Hence the resemblance to Greek mythology in her doctrine of God.
KJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2011,11:40) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 04 2011,13:47) Quote (Lightenup @ April 05 2011,06:30) Or 'today' could be according to eternity where there is only today, just an eternal one.
Gobbledygook
Spoken like a man that has been solidly trained in “gobbledygook”, what with all his years as a trinni.
Jack, thanks for your answer on Sheol. I disagree with you, but thank you for answering my question.
mike
Mike,Please answer how the soothsayer called Samuel up from sheol if Samuel “ceased to exist?” Explain why God condemned soothsayers for calling up the dead out of sheol if the dead “ceased to exist?”
Jack
Quote (Sophia @ April 05 2011,20:10) ~WJ, LU, KJ, MB, IS, SF,
I have been reading here, on & off, about a Year now, & it's about time I spoke.
I must say I am SHOCKED at the manner in which You have treated some People.
As you waste your time “Battling Truth” [having 'fun' with one another] –
The “Orphans and Widow's” [James] are left ALONE! [If you know what that means?].
(No, it doesn't mean what I assume you would think it to mean).
And have you ever read this – [2ND Timothy 2:14, & James 1:27]:
***(They will be) “Lovers of themself, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, traitors, headstrong, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God;”
*** “Remind them of these things, charging them in the sight of the Lord, that they do not argue about words, to no profit, to the subverting of those who hear”
Perhaps you have bypassed those Verses?
PLEASE. Do a favor….[Get off your Pedestals]~
Sophia,Thank you for the motherly rebuke. I know I deserved it. I am going to nominate you for moderator.
Thanks again,
KJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2011,22:09) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 05 2011,08:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2011,20:03) I would like to know how Jesus already had the glory of an ONLY BEGOTTEN Son from the Father when he was flesh if he wasn't “begotten” until after he died.
Sure MikeAs soon as you can show us a scripture that says his Glory as the Only begotten Son was before he came in the flesh.
WJ
I showed you one that says he had that glory WHILE he was flesh. Isn't that enough to make you see he wasn't begotten when he was raised from the dead?mike
NO!Because John 17:5 says he returned to the previous Glory he shared with the Father before the world began.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2011,22:13) Quote (Istari @ April 05 2011,08:51) The false speaker will never admit they spoke falsely nor that the other spoke truth so it must be accepted in oneself.
Yeah, you could just live with it. Or you could start a poll exposing the false speaking like I did. Maybe a little spotlight on the subject will make them think twice the next time.mike
Maybe you will think twice before you accuse someone of lying and create a thread to slander them which in turn slandered Kath also.WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2011,04:10) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2011,22:09) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 05 2011,08:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2011,20:03) I would like to know how Jesus already had the glory of an ONLY BEGOTTEN Son from the Father when he was flesh if he wasn't “begotten” until after he died.
Sure MikeAs soon as you can show us a scripture that says his Glory as the Only begotten Son was before he came in the flesh.
WJ
I showed you one that says he had that glory WHILE he was flesh. Isn't that enough to make you see he wasn't begotten when he was raised from the dead?mike
NO!Because John 17:5 says he returned to the previous Glory he shared with the Father before the world began.
WJ
Keith,Mike argues from his inferences instead of what the scripture expressly declares regarding the timing of Christ's being begotten. he was begotten on the day of His resurrection (Acts 13, Heb. 1, Heb. 5)
Jack
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
