Firstborn of/over all creation

[Lightenup]

Well, Keith, I could ask you to tell me how many minds and wills the one divine being has and what the name of that one divine being is but I think we are getting off topic. I'm more interested in filling this thread with quotes about what the ante-nicene church father's understood about the name, 'Firstborn of/over all creation.'

[Proclaimer]

Quote

“There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreate.”

These early church fathers often speak of the logos as an attribute of
God and also as the Word himself, Christ.

So it could just be a lack of understanding on your part WJ, as to
what that sentence is saying.

e.g.,

God begat before all creatures a Beginning, a certain
Reasonable Power from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now
the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then
God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls himself
Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave. For
he can be called by all those names, since he ministers to the will of
the Father, and since he was begotten out of the Father by an act of
will, just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out
some word, we beget the word, yet not by abscission, so as to lessen
the word in us, when we give it out, and just as we see also happening
in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled, but
remains the same, and that which has been kindled by it likewise
appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was
kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is himself this God begotten of the
Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory
of the Begetter.
Second Apology – Justin Martyr (ca. 150 A.D)

[Proclaimer]

This whole idea about God, begatting another God would mean that the second God was not the only true one by reason of that position already being filled. The LORD thy God is one God.

However, the word 'theos' can be used to not only identify, but qualify or talk of ones nature or office.

So God could well begat another who has the nature of God. i.e., the Divine begats a being of divine nature. What other nature would the first have anyway?

We know that Eve came from Adam, so is it wrong to say that from Adam came another adam (man/kind). No that is scriptural as it says that God made adam both male and female.

Is it wrong then to say that from Adam came another Adam? Yes that is wrong, because Adam identifies the first man, and adam is the word for man(kind), and Eve was not Adam. No 2 different people.

So Eve was not Adam, but she was adam.
Similarly, Jesus is not the Divine, but he is divine.

Just a difference in the way the word is used. Identity or qualitative. Most Trinitarians do not understand this, although a number of their scholars do, but still remain adamant that even though the Word was divine, that this still makes him God by their definition.

Also, because Trinitarians on the whole have no concept of how the word 'theos' can be used to identify or to qualify, they also read the Early Fathers work as supporting their view due to this same ignorance.

[JustAskin]

WJ,

But you do not believe so by your own thought but by the indoctrination of the abomination.

[terraricca]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 22 2010,06:29)

WJ, But you do not believe so by your own thought but by the indoctrination of the abomination.

JA

you just bring things to the truth and see not answer.

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 21 2010,03:50)

Quote “There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreate.” These early church fathers often speak of the logos as an attribute of God and also as the Word himself, Christ. So it could just be a lack of understanding on your part WJ, as to what that sentence is saying. e.g., God begat before all creatures a Beginning, a certain Reasonable Power from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave. For he can be called by all those names, since he ministers to the will of the Father, and since he was begotten out of the Father by an act of will, just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word, yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word in us, when we give it out, and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled, but remains the same, and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter. Second Apology – Justin Martyr (ca. 150 A.D)

t8

Justin Martyr also wrote these quotes…

[Lightenup]

Here we have Tatian who writes about the Logos coming into being and is the first-begotten work of the Father.  He didn't think that the logos was always a separate person but that it came into being.  I have said that I believe the firstborn of all creation was the first fruit of the Father.  This affirms that calling the Logos the 'first-begotten work.'

Quote

CHAPTER V.—THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHRISTIANS AS TO THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. God was in the beginning; but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary ground (ὑπόστασις) of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone; but inasmuch as He was all power, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Logos-power (διὰ λογικῆς δυνάμεως), the Logos Himself also, who was in Him, subsists.433433    [See Kaye’s Justin Martyr, p. 161, note; and observe his stricture on Bull and Waterland.] And by His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos, not coming forth in vain, becomes the first-begotten work of the Father. Him (the Logos) we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation,434434    κατὰ μερισμόν. Some translate, “by division,” but the above is preferable. The sense, according to Otto, is that the Logos, having received a peculiar nature, shares in the rational power of the Father as a lighted torch partakes of the light of the torch from which it is kindled. Comp. Just. Mar., Dial. c. T., chap. lxi. not by abscission; for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function,435435    οἰκονομίας τὴν αἲρεσιν προσλαβόν. The above seems the simplest rendering of this difficult passage, but several others have been proposed. [See note 4, cap. ix., infra, p. 69.] does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Logos, coming forth from the Logos-power of the Father, has not divested of the Logos-power Him who begat Him. I myself, for instance, talk, and you hear; yet, certainly, I who converse do not become destitute of speech (λόγος) by the transmission of speech, but by the utterance of my voice I endeavour to reduce to order the unarranged matter in your minds. And as the Logos,436436    [Matter not eternal. He seems to have understood Gen. i. 1, of the creation of matter; and verse 2, as beginning the history of our planet and the visible universe.] begotten in the beginning, begat in turn our world, having first created for Himself the necessary matter, so also I, in imitation of the Logos, being begotten again,437437    [Supposed to be a personal reference to his conversion and baptism. As to “confused matter,” it should be kindred matter, and must be set over “kindred spirit.” See p. 71, cap. xiii., infra.] and having become possessed of the truth, am trying to reduce to order the confused matter which is kindred with myself. For matter is not, like God, without beginning, nor, as having no beginning, is of equal power with God; it is begotten, and not produced by any other being, but brought into existence by the Framer of all things alone.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.iii.ii.v.htm

[Lightenup]

Justin Martyr states that the Word is the firstborn of God, produced without sexual union.

Quote

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth (i.e., first-born.) of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.xxi.html

[JustAskin]

t8,
Your post was spot on.

Terra,
WJ does see the truth but is afraid to accept it because it would mean alienation from his peers. Simple as!

LU,
As can be seen from the numerous quotes: Many people had many ideas about 'Jesus' but yet there is only one answer, one true answer.

Start by asking, 'What is [a] God?'

Then ask, 'Is it possible for there to be more than one God?'

Also ask, 'Can [a] God become 'not' [a] God?'

Try, 'What is the name of God?'

More, 'What is the name of the Father?',
And, What is the name of the Son?,
And, What is the name of the Holy Spirit?'

And also ask, 'Why is the Son called 'the word' of God if he IS God?'

And finally, but not final, 'How, can God [as the Son] die, and be raised up again to a MORE glorious position, IF he were already God before he emptied himself and became flesh. To what 'more glorious' position could he have been raised to….and yet….still be subordinate to the Father, as God…and in what relation to the Holy Spirit?'

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 21 2010,05:56)

This whole idea about God, begatting another God would mean that the second God was not the only true one by reason of that position already being filled. The LORD thy God is one God. However, the word 'theos' can be used to not only identify, but qualify or talk of ones nature or office. So God could well begat another who has the nature of God. i.e., the Divine begats a being of divine nature. What other nature would the first have anyway? We know that Eve came from Adam, so is it wrong to say that from Adam came another adam (man/kind). No that is scriptural as it says that God made adam both male and female. Is it wrong then to say that from Adam came another Adam? Yes that is wrong, because Adam identifies the first man, and adam is the word for man(kind), and Eve was not Adam. No 2 different people. So Eve was not Adam, but she was adam. Similarly, Jesus is not the Divine, but he is divine. Just a difference in the way the word is used. Identity or qualitative. Most Trinitarians do not understand this, although a number of their scholars do, but still remain adamant that even though the Word was divine, that this still makes him God by their definition. Also, because Trinitarians on the whole have no concept of how the word 'theos' can be used to identify or to qualify, they also read the Early Fathers work as supporting their view due to this same ignorance.

t8 and all,
What would be wrong with saying that the begotten was the true begotten God and not the true UNbegotten God? You still have only ONE true unbegotten God and Jesus is still a true God, just the ONLY begotten one.

Our God comes as a package deal…The Father together with the Spirit OF Him and Son OF Him. The Son is the exact image of the Father's nature and character and has all things the Father has, with the only difference being the Son was begotten and given all things; the Father was not begotten and was the source of all things.

If I think of the Spirit and the Son as much a part of the Father as His own attributes and always having been as much a part of the Father, whether yet to be begotten or proceeding forth or after being begotten (the Son) and proceeding forth (the Spirit); then I can see how the one true God, the Father, in His fullness includes the Spirit and the Son who are never separated from the Father. Where you have one…you also have what is IN Him and OF Him.

[Lightenup]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 29 2010,00:29)

t8, Your post was spot on. Terra, WJ does see the truth but is afraid to accept it because it would mean alienation from his peers. Simple as! LU, As can be seen from the numerous quotes: Many people had many ideas about 'Jesus' but yet there is only one answer, one true answer. Start by asking, 'What is [a] God?' Then ask, 'Is it possible for there to be more than one God?' Also ask, 'Can [a] God become 'not' [a] God?' Try, 'What is the name of God?' More, 'What is the name of the Father?', And, What is the name of the Son?, And, What is the name of the Holy Spirit?' And also ask, 'Why is the Son called 'the word' of God if he IS God?' And finally, but not final, 'How, can God [as the Son]  die, and be raised up again to a MORE glorious position, IF he were already God before he emptied himself and became flesh. To what 'more glorious' position could he have been raised to….and yet….still be subordinate to the Father, as God…and in what relation to the Holy Spirit?'

Hi JA,
I really like your tone on this post, it does not appear arrogant, or condescending…just honest. Thank you!

You ask:

Quote

Start by asking, 'What is [a] God?'

Answer: a being with divine nature.

Quote

Then ask, 'Is it possible for there to be more than one God?'

Yes, it is possible for there to be more than one God (divine being), but it is not possible for there to be more than one unbegotten God (divine being).

Quote

Also ask, 'Can [a] God become 'not' [a] God?'

You are asking if a divine being can become not a divine being. I would say no. A divine being can however limit Himself by choice.

Quote

Try, 'What is the name of God?'

The name of the UNbegotten God (divine being) is 'Father' if you are His child. His proper name is YHVH. He can be called 'Lord', 'God' as well as 'my provider' etc.

The name of the begotten God (divine being) is Yeshua (Jesus) after He became flesh. Beforehand He was not yet revealed but still existed. He was manifesting YHVH and went by YHVH also, before He was revealed as Yeshua (Jesus). His relationship to the Father is one of being His only begotten Son.

Quote

And, What is the name of the Holy Spirit?

Holy Spirit, or Comforter.

Quote

And also ask, 'Why is the Son called 'the word' of God if he IS God?'

We are known by our words. The Father is known by His Son. Maybe there is a simile in this. The Son is not the Most High God, He is the God (divine being) OF/FROM the Most High God (divine being).

Quote

And finally, but not final, 'How, can God [as the Son] die, and be raised up again to a MORE glorious position, IF he were already God before he emptied himself and became flesh. To what 'more glorious' position could he have been raised to….and yet….still be subordinate to the Father, as God…and in what relation to the Holy Spirit?'

Before the begotten God came in the flesh, He was the only begotten God with a covenant to fulfill. Part of the covenant was to limit Himself of whatever, come in flesh as a man, and follow His Father's will completely even unto death. After He died, He was the begotten God with the covenant fulfilled. That fulfilling of the covenant came with the rewards of worship and glory as seated at the right hand of His Father and all things restored to Him that He limited Himself of when coming in the flesh among other things.

This is my understand, JA.
Thanks for just asking.

[Lightenup]

Here is a quote from Cyril on God, the Word begotten before all ages and implies that as His beginning:

Quote

6. How Christ is One. The Divine Paul writes, Though there be gods many and lords many in heaven and in earth, yet to us One God the Father of Whom all things and we of Him, and One Lord Jesus Christ through Whom all things and we through Him. Yea and the very wise John said of God the Word, that All things were made through Him, and without Him was nothing made, and the blessed Gabriel declared the Gospel to the Holy Virgin saying, Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and, bear a Son, and shalt call His Name Jesus. Since then the Divine Paul declares that all things were made through Jesus Christ, and the Divine Evangelist confirms the force of the sentence and preaches that He |191 was God the Maker of all things, speaking truly, and the Angel's voice too points out that Jesus Christ was truly born of the Holy Virgin: yet we do not say that Jesus Christ was mere man 8, nor do we conceive of God the Word apart from His human nature but, we say that He was made One out of both, as God made Man, the Same begotten Divinely out of the Father as Word, and humanly out of woman as Man: not as though called to a second beginning of being then when He is said to have been born after the flesh: but begotten indeed before all ages, yet when the time came wherein He must fulfil the economy, born also of a woman after the flesh. Therefore, albeit others are called by like name christs, yet is there One Jesus Christ through Whom are all things, not that a man was made Maker of all things, but that God the Word, through Whom all things were made, like as we took part of flesh and blood, and was called Man, yet lost not what He was; for so, so made in flesh is He rightly understood to be Maker of all.

from: http://www.ccel.org/ccel…..htm#C1

Interesting how many early church fathers place the begetting before all the ages.

[Lightenup]

More from Cyril regarding the Word of God being very God out of very God and begotten BEFORE the incarnation:

Quote

Desiring to investigate the Mystery of the economy with flesh of the Only Begotten, we say this, holding true doctrine and right faith, that the Word Himself out of God the Father, Very God out of Very God, the Light That is out of Light, was Incarnate and made Man, descended suffered rose from the dead: for thus defined the holy and great Synod the Symbol of the Faith; But investigating and desiring to learn what is the true meaning of the Word being Incarnate and made Man; we see that it is not to take man in connection in regard of equality of dignity or authority or of mere community of name of sonship; but rather to be made man as we, together with His preserving to His own Nature Its being unchanged and without turn, Who economically became in assumption of flesh and blood. One therefore is He Who before the Incarnation is called by the God-inspired Scripture, Only-Begotten, Word, God, Image, Brightness, Impress of the Person of the Father, Life, Glory, Light, Wisdom, Power, Arm, Right Hand, Most Highest, Magnificence, Lord of Sabaoth, and other like names, truly most God-befitting; and after the Incarnation, Man, Christ Jesus, Propitiation, Mediator, Firstfruits of them that slept, First-begotten of the dead, Second Adam, Head of the Body the Church; the first |201 names also following Him: for all are His, both the first and those in the last times of the world. One therefore is He Who both before the Incarnation was Very God and in the human nature hath remained That He was and is and shall be. We must not then sever the One Lord Jesus Christ into Man separately and into God separately, but we say that Jesus Christ is One and the Same, yet knowing the distinction of the Natures and keeping them unconfused with one another.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel…..htm#C1

[Baker]

Hello! This is going to be a very short post. If the Holy Spirit is a person, would He then not be His Father? I have asked this before and got no answer. Hope you WJ answer me this time….
Peace Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 02 2010,15:47)

Hello!  This is going to be a very short post.  If the Holy Spirit is a person, would He then not be His Father? I have asked this before and got no answer.  Hope you WJ answer me this time…. Peace Irene

Irene

I have answered you many times.

So let me take another approach.

If the Holy Spirit is not a person as you say but an “it”,  and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, then according to you an “it” is the Father of Jesus, is that right?

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2010,08:08)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 02 2010,15:47) Hello!  This is going to be a very short post.  If the Holy Spirit is a person, would He then not be His Father? I have asked this before and got no answer.  Hope you WJ answer me this time…. Peace Irene Irene I have answered you many times. So let me take another approach. If the Holy Spirit is not a person as you say but an “it”,  and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, then according to you an “it” is the Father of Jesus, is that right? WJ

I hope you two don't mind if I butt in.

If the holy spirit is a person, then that person, NOT THE FATHER, is the father of Jesus Christ, right?

I think that is what Irene is asking Keith.

mike

[JustAskin]

LU,
There is no such thing as a 'Begotten God'.

There is no such thing as a 'Begotten God' in Scriptures…and Scriptures cannot be broken.

Please note the use of the 'indefinite article, 'a''. This is very important to as it distinquishes 'the many' from the 'One' ('The Theos', definite article)

All the quotes pertaining to Jesus being 'a God' are simply Trinitarian deliberate mistranslation of 'Theos'.

Theos is not exclusively meant to say 'God' but can also mean, 'a Mighty One', 'a Supreme being', 'a Hero', 'The best of the best', 'a powerful one', etc.

YHVH is the 'Most High Theos', 'the greatest of all Mighty Ones'.

Jesus is indeed, 'a mighty one'. All angels are 'Mighty Beings', Sons of YHVH, 'The Theos'.

Jesus is 'The Mightiest' of the Sons of 'The Theos'.

Trinitarians, note caeefully, do not call the Holy Spirit, Theos, except by the creed. They do not use Theos in everday discussion, only as backing from the creed. They do not 'Worship' the Holy Spirit, indeed, they do not Worship Jesus Christ, but merely state in in the creed.

In fact, no where in Scriptures does it state that Jesus is to be Worshipped by Mankind, the angels, yes, but not Mankind.

In fact, Scriptures says, 'Honor the Son [Jesus Christ], Worship the Father'

In Revelation, only the One seated on the Throne is Worshipped. All other times only 'Praise, Honor and Glory' are given…to both.
In addition, 'Jesus' is also given 'Power and Riches'. Who from? If Jesus is God, then he already has 'Power and Riches'!

[Ed J]

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 03 2010,07:47)

Hello!  This is going to be a very short post.  If the Holy Spirit is a person, would He then not be His Father? I have asked this before and got no answer.  Hope you WJ answer me this time…. Peace Irene

Hi Irene,

Why yes of course! (Click Here)

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 03 2010,01:57)

LU, There is no such thing as a 'Begotten God'. There is no such thing as a 'Begotten God' in Scriptures…and Scriptures cannot be broken. Please note the use of the 'indefinite article, 'a''. This is very important to as it distinquishes 'the many' from the 'One' ('The Theos', definite article) All the quotes pertaining to Jesus being 'a God' are simply Trinitarian deliberate mistranslation of 'Theos'. Theos is not exclusively meant to say 'God' but can also mean, 'a Mighty One', 'a Supreme being', 'a Hero', 'The best of the best', 'a powerful one', etc. YHVH is the 'Most High Theos', 'the greatest of all Mighty Ones'. Jesus is indeed, 'a mighty one'. All angels are 'Mighty Beings', Sons of YHVH, 'The Theos'. Jesus is 'The Mightiest' of the Sons of 'The Theos'. Trinitarians, note caeefully, do not call the Holy Spirit, Theos, except by the creed. They do not use Theos in everday discussion, only as backing from the creed. They do not 'Worship' the Holy Spirit, indeed, they do not Worship Jesus Christ, but merely state in in the creed. In fact, no where in Scriptures does it state that Jesus is to be Worshipped by Mankind, the angels, yes, but not Mankind. In fact, Scriptures says, 'Honor the Son [Jesus Christ], Worship the Father' In Revelation, only the One seated on the Throne is Worshipped. All other times only 'Praise, Honor and Glory' are given…to both. In addition, 'Jesus' is also given 'Power and Riches'. Who from? If Jesus is God, then he already has 'Power and Riches'!

JA,
Thanks for your effort to 'straighten' me out. John 1:18…the only begotten God…o monogenes theos…check it out:

NASB © Joh 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

We don't want to take away from scripture. Theos can't mean mighty one here because the angels are mighty ones and they are many. Monogenes has the sense of being the only begotten theos.

Could the reason that Jesus is given riches and power be because the Son of God EMPTIED Himself to become flesh and thus was given back?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2010,20:32)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2010,08:08) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 02 2010,15:47) Hello!  This is going to be a very short post.  If the Holy Spirit is a person, would He then not be His Father? I have asked this before and got no answer.  Hope you WJ answer me this time…. Peace Irene Irene I have answered you many times. So let me take another approach. If the Holy Spirit is not a person as you say but an “it”,  and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, then according to you an “it” is the Father of Jesus, is that right? WJ I hope you two don't mind if I butt in. If the holy spirit is a person, then that person, NOT THE FATHER, is the father of Jesus Christ, right? I think that is what Irene is asking Keith. mike

Mike

The scriptures says Jesus is the “Son of God”.

Since God is three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit then Jesus incarnation involved the three. Luke 1:35, Job 33:4, Heb 10:5, Phil 2:6-8

The Holy Spirit came upon Mary and caused her to concieve his body, (Job 33:4, Heb 10:5) in that moment the power of the Highest overshadowed her and Jesus took on the likeness of sinful flesh (John 1:1, 14, Phil 2:6-8)

And the Angel anounced that he Jesus would be called the Son of God”.

Now the question is right back to you…

If the Holy Spirit is not a person as you say but an “it”,  and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, then according to you an “it” is the Father of Jesus, is that right?

WJ

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