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Jack,
What do you say the story meant?(Please don't make me laugh any louder – my neighbours will complain)
Quote (Istari @ April 04 2011,16:47) WJ,
Ha ha ha ha ha ha….. Sorry to laugh at you!oh, no I'm not !
Ok, so why did the poor man go to heaven – just for being poor?
The parable doesn't tell us except that we can assume in the context that the rich man didn't recieve the words of Moses or the Prophets and repent and Lazurus did.WJ
Kathi said:
Quote Jack,
The title 'firstborn of all creation' not only includes animals but trees, plants, fish, heavenly bodies, and man…all living things.
kathi,No way! The firstborn cow was the firsborn of cows. The firstborn lamb was the firstborn of lambs. The firstborn son was the firstborn of human brothers. In verse 23 Paul said that the gospel was preached to all creation meaning all humanity. It means exactly the same thing in verse 6. Therefore, Christ is the firstborn of all creation (humankind).
Give an example where the firstborn of anything is firstborn to anything outside its own family (whether of cows, lambs or human brothers).
Christ is the firstborn of the HUMAN family alone. An intelligent woman such as yourself should not need to be taught such elementary things. We would expect Sonnyboll64 to err but not you.
Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 04 2011,15:41) Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2011,14:30) Or 'today' could be according to eternity where there is only today, just an eternal one.
Do you have a scripture for that because “yown” is the first time days are mentioned and it is mentioned as the “first day” in Genesis.Does the word “first” mean anything?
WJ
Keith,
It tells us that there is only day in eternity…no more nights.NASB
Is 60:19
“No longer will you have the sun for light by day, Nor for brightness will the moon give you light; But you will have the LORD for an everlasting light, And your God for your glory.Revelation 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
Revelation 22:5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
Gill writes:
Quote and this clear light will continue for ever; there will be no more night, but one everlasting day: http://bible.cc/isaiah/60-19.htm
Kathi
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 04 2011,16:56) Kathi said: Quote Jack,
The title 'firstborn of all creation' not only includes animals but trees, plants, fish, heavenly bodies, and man…all living things.
kathi,No way! The firstborn cow was the firsborn of cows. The firstborn lamb was the firstborn of lambs. The firstborn son was the firstborn of human brothers. In verse 23 Paul said that the gospel was preached to all creation meaning all humanity. It means exactly the same thing in verse 6. Therefore, Christ is the firstborn of all creation (humankind).
Give an example where the firstborn of anything is firstborn to anything outside its own family (whether of cows, lambs or human brothers).
Christ is the firstborn of the HUMAN family alone. An intelligent woman such as yourself should not need to be taught such elementary things. We would expect Sonnyboll64 to err but not you.
Jack
Jack,
Col 1:15 is not talking about the man Christ, it is talking about the deity, the begotten God, whom by all things were created. Who, in order to have created all things, He himself would have had to be there at the time before creating all things.Romans 8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
From Gill:
Quote 1. In the creatures v. 19-22. That must needs be a great, a transcendent glory, which all the creatures are so earnestly expecting and longing for. This observation in these verses has some difficulty in it, which puzzles interpreters a little; and the more because it is a remark not made in any other scripture, with which it might be compared. By the creature here we understand, not as some do the Gentile world, and their expectation of Christ and the gospel, which is an exposition very foreign and forced, but the whole frame of nature, especially that of this lower world-the whole creation, the compages of inanimate and sensible creatures, which, because of their harmony and mutual dependence, and because they all constitute and make up one world, are spoken of in the singular number as the creature. The sense of the apostle in these four verses we may take in the following observations:-(1.) That there is a present vanity to which the creature, by reason of the sin of man, is made subject, v. 20. When man sinned, the ground was cursed for man's sake, and with it all the creatures (especially of this lower world, where our acquaintance lies) became subject to that curse, became mutable and mortal. Under the bondage of corruption, v. 21. There is an impurity, deformity, and infirmity, which the creature has contracted by the fall of man: the creation is sullied and stained, much of the beauty of the world gone. There is an enmity of one creature to another; they are all subject to continual alteration and decay of the individuals, liable to the strokes of God's judgments upon man. When the world was drowned, and almost all the creatures in it, surely then it was subject to vanity indeed. The whole species of creatures is designed for, and is hastening to, a total dissolution by fire. And it is not the least part of their vanity and bondage that they are used, or abused rather, by men as instruments of sin. The creatures are often abused to the dishonour of their Creator, the hurt of his children, or the service of his enemies. When the creatures are made the food and fuel of our lusts, they are subject to vanity, they are captivated by the law of sin. And this not willingly, not of their own choice. All the creatures desire their own perfection and consummation; when they are made instruments of sin it is not willingly. Or, They are thus captivated, not for any sin of their own, which they had committed, but for man's sin: By reason of him who hath subjected the same. Adam did it meritoriously; the creatures being delivered to him, when he by sin delivered himself he delivered them likewise into the bondage of corruption. God did it judicially; he passed a sentence upon the creatures for the sin of man, by which they became subject. And this yoke (poor creatures) they bear in hope that it will not be so always. EpÕ elpidi hoti kai, etc.-in hope that the creature itself; so many Greek copies join the words. We have reason to pity the poor creatures that for our sin have become subject to vanity. (2.) That the creatures groan and travail in pain together under this vanity and corruption, v. 22. It is a figurative expression. Sin is a burden to the whole creation; the sin of the Jews, in crucifying Christ, set the earth a quaking under them. The idols were a burden to the weary beast, Isa. 46:1. There is a general outcry of the whole creation against the sin of man: the stone crieth out of the wall (Hab. 2:11), the land cries, Job 31:38. (3.) That the creature, that is now thus burdened, shall, at the time of the restitution of all things, be delivered from this bondage into the glorious liberty of the children of God (v. 21)-they shall no more be subject to vanity and corruption, and the other fruits of the curse; but, on the contrary, this lower world shall be renewed: when there will be new heavens there will be a new earth (2 Pt. 3:13; Rev. 21:1); and there shall be a glory conferred upon all the creatures, which shall be (in the proportion of their natures) as suitable and as great an advancement as the glory of the children of God shall be to them. The fire at the last day shall be a refining, not a destroying annihilating fire. What becomes of the souls of brutes, that go downwards, none can tell. But it should seem by the scripture that there will be some kind of restoration of them. And if it be objected, What use will they be of to glorified saints? we may suppose them of as much use as they were to Adam in innocency; and if it be only to illustrate the wisdom, power, and goodness of their Creator, that is enough. Compare with this Ps. 96:10-13; 98:7-9. Let the heavens rejoice before the Lord, for he cometh. (4.) That the creature doth therefore earnestly expect and wait for the manifestation of the children of God, v. 19. Observe, At the second coming of Christ there will be a manifestation of the children of God. Now the saints are God's hidden ones, the wheat seems lost in a heap of chaff; but then they shall be manifested. It does not yet appear what we shall be (1 Jn. 3:2), but then the glory shall be revealed. The children of God shall appear in their own colours. And this redemption of the creature is reserved till then; for, as it was with man and for man that they fell under the curse, so with man and for man they shall be delivered. All the curse and filth that now adhere to the c
reature shall be done away then when those that have suffered with Christ upon earth shall reign with him upon the earth. This the whole creation looks and longs for; and it may serve as a reason why now a good man should be merciful to his beast.
http://biblebrowser.com/romans/8-19.htmThe begotten God was the first to be begotten of all creation, He existed from eternity and then was begotten. He was begotten before any thing had been begotten. No cattle had been begotten yet, no lambs, no trees had beget after their kind, no fish…nothing in creation had been begotten before the Son was begotten as the firstborn.
Kathi
CORRECTED FOR SPELLING. T8 PLEASE DELETE MY POST IMMEDIATELY ABOVE.
Kathi said:
Quote Col 1:15 is not talking about the man Christ, it is talking about the deity, the begotten God, whom by all things were created. Who, in order to have created all things, He himself would have had to be there at the time before creating all things.
Kathi,I reject the “eternal sonship” and the “preexistent sonship” doctrines. Christ was the Eternal Word MADE Son. He was appointed to that office just as His fathers David and Solomon before Him.
The Greek “pasa ktisis” in the context CLEARLY means “all mankind” (vs. 23). Christ is the appointed firstborn Son of all mankind. The firstborn of anything is firstborn only to its own family. Therefore, Christ is the firstborn of the family of all mankind.
The “all things” that were created is the new man in Christ.
Quote 8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Quote Who, in order to have created all things, He himself would have had to be there at the time before creating all things.
The “all things” that He created is that which He has reconciled to Himself:Quote 20 and by Him to reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. Colossians 1:20
You cannot comment on chapter 2 without chapters 1 & 3.I am NOT saying that Christ did not create everything. John 1 and Hebrews 1 is clear about that. But Colossians 2 is not about that.
Jack
Romans 12:16 'Be of the same mind one toward another. Don't set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Don't be wise in your own conceits.
“…consider with me that if any one, as he pleases, form a dogma agreeable to himself, and then carefully search the Scriptures, he will be able to produce many testimonies from them in favor of the dogma that he has formed”.
(Clementine Homilies)
Quote (Lightenup @ April 05 2011,09:07) Keith,
It tells us that there is only day in eternity…no more nights.NASB
Is 60:19
“No longer will you have the sun for light by day, Nor for brightness will the moon give you light; But you will have the LORD for an everlasting light, And your God for your glory.Revelation 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
Revelation 22:5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
Gill writes:
Quote and this clear light will continue for ever; there will be no more night, but one everlasting day: http://bible.cc/isaiah/60-19.htm
Kathi
Interesting.Thanks.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 04 2011,13:47) Quote (Lightenup @ April 05 2011,06:30) Or 'today' could be according to eternity where there is only today, just an eternal one.
Gobbledygook
Spoken like a man that has been solidly trained in “gobbledygook”, what with all his years as a trinni.
Jack, thanks for your answer on Sheol. I disagree with you, but thank you for answering my question.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 04 2011,12:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 03 2011,01:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 02 2011,12:32) Really, then what does the “beginning” in verse 1 and 2 of John 1:1 mean if it does not mean before time?
What does “beginning” mean in Gen 1:1? It says the earth was created, as in past tense, in the beginning.mike
Yes and Jesus was already there in the beginning for nothing had come into being yet including the day Jesus was begotten on.You didn't answer the question MR.
“Was there a day “yowm” before day “yowm” One in scripture?”
WJ
Hi Keith,My honest answer is “I DON'T KNOW”. A thousand years for us is like one day for God, so obviously there are “human days” and “God days”. The decree that God made could have referred to one of His “God-days” way before our “human days” existed.
But you forget that “yowm” also refers to any general “period”, and doesn't necessarily mean “human day”.
Now, Kathi and I have fell for the diversion because you guys are so smooth with them. So let's all get back to the point you diverted from, okay? Instead of Kathi and I answering YOUR questions about the Hebrew word “yowm”, how about YOU address the actual point in question?
Keith, Jack and Istari all claim the Jesus was begotten AFTER HE WAS EXALTED. I made the point to Keith that the Word had the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father way before Jesus was exalted. And that's when the “yowm” diversion started.
I would like to know how Jesus already had the glory of an ONLY BEGOTTEN Son from the Father when he was flesh if he wasn't “begotten” until after he died.
mike
Jack,
you said:
Quote I reject the “eternal sonship” and the “preexistent sonship” doctrines. Christ was the Eternal Word MADE Son. He was appointed to that office just as His fathers David and Solomon before Him. Would you please answer this question:
Was the 'Word' that was in the Father before it/he came out of the Father a person with the same nature as the Father?
or
Was the 'Word' that was in the Father before it/he came out of the Father not yet a person with the same nature as the Father?Thanks,
Kathi~WJ, LU, KJ, MB, IS, SF,
I have been reading here, on & off, about a Year now, & it's about time I spoke.
I must say I am SHOCKED at the manner in which You have treated some People.
As you waste your time “Battling Truth” [having 'fun' with one another] –
The “Orphans and Widow's” [James] are left ALONE! [If you know what that means?].
(No, it doesn't mean what I assume you would think it to mean).
And have you ever read this – [2ND Timothy 2:14, & James 1:27]:
***(They will be) “Lovers of themself, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, traitors, headstrong, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God;”
*** “Remind them of these things, charging them in the sight of the Lord, that they do not argue about words, to no profit, to the subverting of those who hear”
Perhaps you have bypassed those Verses?
PLEASE. Do a favor….[Get off your Pedestals]~Quote (Sophia @ April 05 2011,20:10) ~WJ, LU, KJ, MB, IS, SF,
I have been reading here, on & off, about a Year now, & it's about time I spoke.
I must say I am SHOCKED at the manner in which You have treated some People.
As you waste your time “Battling Truth” [having 'fun' with one another] –
The “Orphans and Widow's” [James] are left ALONE! [If you know what that means?].
(No, it doesn't mean what I assume you would think it to mean).
And have you ever read this – [2ND Timothy 2:14, & James 1:27]:
***(They will be) “Lovers of themself, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, traitors, headstrong, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God;”
*** “Remind them of these things, charging them in the sight of the Lord, that they do not argue about words, to no profit, to the subverting of those who hear”
Perhaps you have bypassed those Verses?
PLEASE. Do a favor….[Get off your Pedestals]~
Wow, that's a mouthful…… I do agree with that they should not be gluten, but that goes on all over this site. They are not the only ones that label others. It's not right, but if they get to nasty we can report them, and they get tiles. When they have 5 tiles, they are banned from posting here.
Some are to busy to do James. Or like myself are to Disabled to…
Peace IrenePS My Aunts name was Sophia…..is that your real name???
And welcome to this site….Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2011,17:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 04 2011,15:41) Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2011,14:30) Or 'today' could be according to eternity where there is only today, just an eternal one.
Do you have a scripture for that because “yown” is the first time days are mentioned and it is mentioned as the “first day” in Genesis.Does the word “first” mean anything?
WJ
Keith,
It tells us that there is only day in eternity…no more nights.NASB
Is 60:19
“No longer will you have the sun for light by day, Nor for brightness will the moon give you light; But you will have the LORD for an everlasting light, And your God for your glory.Revelation 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
Revelation 22:5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
Gill writes:
Quote and this clear light will continue for ever; there will be no more night, but one everlasting day: http://bible.cc/isaiah/60-19.htm
Kathi
KathiPlease address my points.
Was Jesus there before “day” (yowm) one?
When was “day” (yowm) one in scriptures?
Where is the scripture for your assumption?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2011,20:03) I would like to know how Jesus already had the glory of an ONLY BEGOTTEN Son from the Father when he was flesh if he wasn't “begotten” until after he died.
Sure MikeAs soon as you can show us a scripture that says his Glory as the Only begotten Son was before he came in the flesh.
WJ
Hi Sophia,
As always, truth is a double edged sword…
It is certainly true what you say – and it certainly applies to many here (no names from any you mentioned – or could be all)
However, often what seems like those things you mention are seen that way because the observer is not knowledgeable about the subject and cannot see the refinements required to lock down a point of Scriptures.
Of course, the main problem is when one side of the sword meets the other:
The arrogant, unyielding, disingenuous poster meets a true Truth seeker (or truth giver)!Like Gandalf falling down alongside the hideous Balrok into the endless chasm (Lord of the Rings) the truth giver is drawn down with the false speaker in Spiritual battle.
Fear of admitting wrongful thinking draws the false speaker to 'toy' with the truth speaker just to annoy them.
How does the false speaker feel as he knowingly makes his false claims?
He feels good that he (Feels that he) has avoided detection of his deceit – and in some cases he has avoided detection because the truth speaker is not observant enough. In other cases the truth speaker is drawn away from the point at hand by a Wiley post.
There is one other reaction from the false speaker…He gets angry and flings back accusations of 'civil liberties…: His right to be wrong. And how dare you try and teach him truth when you don't know ALL TRUTH yourself. And, I don't like the way you said what you said – you weren't nice to me….
In other words, rather than focus on the truth that is given by the truth speaker they focus on ANY KIND OF REAL OR PERCEIVED NEGATIVITY they can see in the truth speakers post…
Of course, this is smoke screening… Emotional intimidation … but no one will ever tell off a person who is [falsely] claiming to have been emotionally upset, will they!!As far as I can see there is only one extremely hard thing for a truth speaker to do and that is to accept a disreputable answer as a sign of truth on themselves. The false speaker will never admit they spoke falsely nor that the other spoke truth so it must be accepted in oneself.
Of course, seeing your good seed fall on fallow ground is not easy to take but Satan is also aware of this failing in human nature and will exploit it – seek comfort in Gods Holy Spirit.(p.s. Why do we say, 'The Holy Spirit of God' and 'The Son of God' but never 'The Father of God'?)
Sophia,
Like Irene said, there is a 'report this post to a moderator' link that you can click on if you find the post is abusive towards someone…have you done that? Also, there is the private message feature where you can handle your grievance privately and directly…have you done that? If not, maybe you can start the Biblical pattern of rebuking us by handling it privately and making sure a log isn't in your own eye. Feel free to PM me with your concern about me if you really are so inclined to correct me but know that I will ask for your specific details as witnesses so that I can better understand your view. Also, I would like to know why you have kept coming here if you are so offended?Matt 18:15-17
“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.Luke 6: 41-45
41“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 42“Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye. 43“For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. 44“For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.Also, I am really hoping that I am wrong in this, but I sense that you are not who you say you are and that you are actually a member that has come in disguise. That would be pretty deceitful and a person that is being deceitful about who they say the are shouldn't be coming on here so self righteous, imo. As I said, I am hoping that I am wrong in what I am sensing.
I will await your PM.
LU
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