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Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2011,20:09) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 01 2011,09:35) Kathi It would be nice if you believed what the Forefathers understood “begotten” means. And it does not mean he had a beginning of any kind.
The what exactly does “God FROM God” mean?mike
Mike,
Similar to what the word from God is…something that was within and then comes out. The Son that is within, comes out…a begettal…before the ages.the Word from God, the God from God. The pre-begotten God within God comes out and is therefore begotten, the begotten God.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 01 2011,19:18) The pre-begotten God within God comes out and is therefore begotten, the begotten God.
And what purpose did it serve for God Almghty to have another whole God living inside of Him for a time, only to beget this other God out of Him at some point?
I've noticed something about both of our ongoing discussions, Kathi. As soon as I stop playing around and demand scriptural support from you, you disappear.
Are we here to discuss scriptures, or people's imaginations? If the former, then let's see the scriptural support to your theory that Jesus existed before he was begotten by his God. If the latter, then consider this:
When Abraham was said to have begotten Issac, it is commonly understood that Isaac did not exist until he was begotten. When God was said to have created Adam, it is commonly understood that Adam did not exist until he was created. Why would you change these common sense rules in the case of Jesus?
I already know the answer. It's because you want Jesus to be equally Almighty God, and therefore equally eternal with the God who begot him. And you are willing to imagine things that go against the common sense God gave us just to make your “wish” come true.
But let's scripturally just nip it in the bud:
Romans 6:9
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.Paul says nothing about death only having mastery over the “human” Jesus, does he? Of course not. And to make it clear to those of you who want to imagine only the “human” part of Jesus died, I offer this passage:
1 Corinthians 15
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.It seems clear to me that Christ died the same death that anyone else dies. And if Christ wasn't REALLY dead, but when we die, we ARE really dead, then where is our hope for the resurrection? If we die in a different way than Christ died, then Christ is not a guarantee of OUR resurrection, because, according to you guys, Christ died some kind of a “lessor” death than the death we all die.
But, if you come to your senses and recognize that Paul was teaching that Jesus died the same way anyone dies, and is therefore our hope and guarantee of a resurrection, you'll also have to realize that Jesus was NOT eternal after all. God has since MADE him eternal, but he was never that way to start with. And if he was not “TO everlasting” like his God, then what would make you even imagine that he was “FROM everlasting” like his God?
It's time for you to either scripturally support your wish for Jesus to be co-eternal with his God, or to admit you cannot.
mike
Mike,
I have been trying to tell you, it only takes a few verses and the understanding of those verses.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The Word WAS a person with the God who also has divine nature…to be God/deity/divine nature would mean He was eternal. That has to be. Anyone NOT eternal would not have divine nature as original nature.John 1:18
NASB
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Begotten means what was within comes out, this one that comes out is a person with divine nature and therefore was eternal.Can't begotten simply mean that which existed within…came out?? Isaac existed for 9 months before he came out, in other words-before he was begotten.
There, I have given you two verses which I told you a while back that from those two verses you can know these things if you understand the two verses.
About Christ dying…yes, He died like other men. But, don't miss “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.” His spirit left Him and went into the hands of the Father for Him to send to preach to the captives, the departed spirits whose bodies have died before Him. He told them the good news. Those spirits were able to hear or they wouldn't have been preached to. Likewise, the spirit that Christ sent to the Father was able to preach. These are no dead spirits.
1 Peter 3:18-20 NLT
18 Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.e19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— 20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ April 01 2011,20:51)
The Word WAS a person with the God who also has divine nature…to be God/deity/divine nature would mean He was eternal. That has to be. Anyone NOT eternal would not have divine nature as original nature.
Once again……………Scripture please? Because if Jesus died like we die, as you've acknowledged, and HE is eternal despite dying, then we ALL are eternal, right? And if we ALL are eternal, then we ALL are deity, according to the things you're saying.Quote (Lightenup @ April 01 2011,20:51)
Isaac existed for 9 months before he came out, in other words-before he was begotten.
And the fact that Isaac was begotten at all tells us there was also a time when he DIDN'T exist. In fact, everyone who has been begotten or created in the history of the world had a time when they did NOT exist at all. WHY would you assume this to be different with Jesus? No………scratch that. WHAT SCRIPTURE tells you that this was different in the case of Jesus? Because the John 1:1 and 18 say nothing of the sort……….at least not that I can see. Tell me, what exact part of these two scriptures say, “Jesus existed even before he was begotten”?mike
Mike,
You seem to agree that He has the true deity nature and that we see in John 1:1 and Heb 1. Deity nature is self-existing and not derived from another. To have deity nature is the same as to be self-exiting. Deity nature is self-existing or it isn't deity nature. I don't know of a verse that spells that out for us. I think that is obvious.Isaac didn't always exist, the Son who was begotten alone has the nature of God with the Father…no one else.
Kathi
TO ALL:
Below is a post of mine from another discussion board. I edited the other posters real name to “John Doe.”
John Doe wrote:
Quote I knew that Mr. MacArthur once held to this view. I am writing only to give my understanding of Hebrews 1:5, which I believe Mr. MacArthur is still not understanding properly. I would never used Hebrews 1:5 to support the “Incarnation Sonship” doctrine, simply because the Holy Ghost interprets Psalm 2:7 for us from the mouth of Paul in Acts 13:30-33. “But God raised him from the dead: And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is written in the second Psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. ” Mr. MacArthur Wrote ~”It is now my conviction that the begetting spoken if in Psalm 2 and Hebrews 1 is not a event that takes place
in time. But it does take place in time. The begetting is not speaking of Jesus' conception, but of his resurrection from the dead! He goes on to say~”It is reasonable to conclude that the begetting spoken of there is also something that pertains to eternity rather than a point in time. The temporal language should therefore be understood as figurative, not literal.” Mr MacArthur, no doubt a righteous man, is dead wrong on this point. Scriptures do indeed interpret each other.Red Baker
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Hello John Doe,I also hold to the Incarnational Sonship view. I believe that Jesus Christ was the ETERNAL Word who BECAME Son for the sake of our salvation. I have seen that many of the objections against the Incarnational Sonship view posted here are without substance. For instance, we are told that our view implies that that before the Word became Son he had no name. Yes he did. That name was “the Word.” It is also said that our view implies that there was no relationship between the two Persons. Yes there was. John 1:1 says that the Word was WITH the God and the Word was God. The preposition “with” here indicates that the Word was with the God face to face. This proves that the term “Son” is not the only name that must indicate a relationship between the two divine Persons. The “Word” is what Jesus was in His eternal relationship with God. The “Son” is what He became in His covenantal relationship with God.
The scripture is clear that Jesus Christ was the Son of God BECAUSE He was the Son of David (Romans 1:4) for David also was God's Firstborn Son (Psalm 89:20-27).
KJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2011,20:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 01 2011,09:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2011,20:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2011,15:51) Yes Kathi But also in the context of Psalms he is set on the Holy Hill mount Zion when the Father declared “this day” he would be his Son.
Hi Keith,Like Jack, you are imagining “links” that aren't even implied, let alone clearly stated. First of all, there is nothing to imply that the Zion referred to is not the HEAVENLY Zion, from which Jesus might have been ruling for ages and ages. So that thought right there shoots down your insistence that both of these things HAD TO HAVE happened when Jesus was exalted.
Mike
The problem you have with that assumption is you are saying Zion existed before he was begotten and that would make John a liar in John 1:3 when he states nothing came into being without Jesus. Burn that straw man down.
WJ
Keith,Your post makes no sense. God could have installed Jesus on the heavenly Zion, which was created through Jesus, in 1984. And once installed, Jesus declared himself to be the begotten Son of God, whose actual begetting happened a billion years prior.
Do you understand?
mike
No mikeHe was already sitting on the Holy hill when he was begotten.
The text is about David and David already existed and was on Mount Zion in “THE DAY” he was begotten.
Jesus is the fulfillment of it at his resurrection.
Try again.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2011,20:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 01 2011,09:12) Mike That is right, “any general time period. Meaning he was begotten in time.
“yowm”
1) day, time, year a) day (as opposed to night) b) day (24 hour period)
1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1 2) as a division of time a) a working day, a day's journey
c) days, lifetime (pl.) d) time, period (general) e) year
f) temporal references 1) today 2) yesterday 3) tomorrow
I have misspoken. Look at the definitions you yourself posted. We are both reading it wrong. It doesn't say “time period”, but refers to any general time, or any general PERIOD.Burn that straw man down.
mike
A general period is still within time and Jesus was before time or day one.
Burn that straw man down.
“Mike can you show me a scripture that implies “yowm” is not inside of time or it is not refering to days, years, or months?”
What you are not getting Mike is if Jesus came into existence before the “beginning of all things” then that means Jesus is the beginning which would mean that all things did not come into existence through him.
How clear is that?
WJ
Mike said to WJ:
Quote Your post makes no sense. God could have installed Jesus on the heavenly Zion, which was created through Jesus, in 1984. And once installed, Jesus declared himself to be the begotten Son of God, whose actual begetting happened a billion years prior.
SHEER NONSENSE!I can't believe that Mike says that Keith makes no sense.
KJ
Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2011,12:14) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 01 2011,16:37) Kathi said: Quote I am not saying that once there was only the Father, I am saying that there was always a Father and a Son and their Holy Spirit. However the Son was within the Father and not alongside Him till He was begotten before the ages.
This is weird man! This is the kind of nonsense that is the result of failing to interpret words and phrases according to their cultural context. Jesus said that after Lazarus died he was “carried TO Abraham's bosom” and that the rich man saw Lazarus “IN Abraham's bosom.” Did Abraham “beget” Lazarus? The Greek word 'ev' (in) may also be translated “at.”The rich man saw Lazarus carried TO Abraham's bosom and consequently IN, that is, AT Abraham's bosom meaning AT his side.
The expression “IN the bosom of the Father” was a Hebrew colloquial expression meaning “AT God's side.” The Word (not the Son) was ALWAYS AT God's side!
Jack,
I don't know why you are teaching me about 'bosom.' I don't think that I have ever specified that the Son was in the 'bosom' or 'womb.' I am just saying that the act of begetting is to bring someone that is within…out. I think that happened to the Son who was begotten from the Father, before the ages…He was within the Father, the Father beget Him, then He came out of the Father, a type of birth. Maybe He goes in and out and in and out and in and out according to when He is needed to serve, idk.It is often described as the word within the Father that came out from the Father.
Kathi
Sorry if I misunderstood you to be speaking about the 'bosom' idea Kathi. I thought that's what you were saying.Quote I am just saying that the act of begetting is to bring someone that is within…out.
Thank you Kathi! Jesus was BEGOTTEN when God raised him from the dead. Jesus was WITHIN sheol and God brought Him OUT. Your own defintion!Jonah said, “From (WITHIN) the WOMB of sheol I cried…and the Lord DELIEVERED me (brought me OUT).”
Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 02 2011,12:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 01 2011,09:12) Mike That is right, “any general time period. Meaning he was begotten in time.
“yowm”
1) day, time, year a) day (as opposed to night) b) day (24 hour period)
1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1 2) as a division of time a) a working day, a day's journey
c) days, lifetime (pl.) d) time, period (general) e) year
f) temporal references 1) today 2) yesterday 3) tomorrow
I have misspoken. Look at the definitions you yourself posted. We are both reading it wrong. It doesn't say “time period”, but refers to any general time, or any general PERIOD.Burn that straw man down.
mike
What a bunch of word game crapola! The Psalm was PROPHETIC of something that was yet FUTURE from the time David spoke it.Hi Kathi,
You didn't directly address these points:
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2011,22:08)
Because if Jesus died like we die, as you've acknowledged, and HE is eternal despite dying, then we ALL are eternal, right? And if we ALL are eternal, then we ALL are deity, according to the things you're saying.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2011,22:08)
In fact, everyone who has been begotten or created in the history of the world had a time when they did NOT exist at all. WHY would you assume this to be different with Jesus? No………scratch that. WHAT SCRIPTURE tells you that this was different in the case of Jesus?Please do. Specifically, if we ALL die the way Jesus died, yet Jesus is “eternal” even though he died, then we ALL are “eternal” also, right?
And specifically, what scripture shows Jesus' begetting to be different than anyone else's begetting, in that there WASN'T a time when he didn't exist.
Also, John 1:1 and Hebrews 1 say nothing about the “deity nature” of Jesus. 1:1 shows he was called a god, like many others in the scriptures. And Hebrews 1 is a quotation of a Psalm that was about an earthly king, and not a deity at all.
Listen Kathi, everything was created “out of” God. So if Jesus came forth from God, and therefore, according to you, is God Almighty too, then everything else that came out of God is equally God Almighty also.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 02 2011,09:12) No mike He was already sitting on the Holy hill when he was begotten.
Prove that theory using the words of scripture.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 03 2011,03:12) Hi Kathi, You didn't directly address these points:
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2011,22:08)
Because if Jesus died like we die, as you've acknowledged, and HE is eternal despite dying, then we ALL are eternal, right? And if we ALL are eternal, then we ALL are deity, according to the things you're saying.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2011,22:08)
In fact, everyone who has been begotten or created in the history of the world had a time when they did NOT exist at all. WHY would you assume this to be different with Jesus? No………scratch that. WHAT SCRIPTURE tells you that this was different in the case of Jesus?Please do. Specifically, if we ALL die the way Jesus died, yet Jesus is “eternal” even though he died, then we ALL are “eternal” also, right?
And specifically, what scripture shows Jesus' begetting to be different than anyone else's begetting, in that there WASN'T a time when he didn't exist.
Also, John 1:1 and Hebrews 1 say nothing about the “deity nature” of Jesus. 1:1 shows he was called a god, like many others in the scriptures. And Hebrews 1 is a quotation of a Psalm that was about an earthly king, and not a deity at all.
Listen Kathi, everything was created “out of” God. So if Jesus came forth from God, and therefore, according to you, is God Almighty too, then everything else that came out of God is equally God Almighty also.
mike
Jesus did indeed 'die' like the old testament saints. He died in relation to this world and went down to sheol ALIVE to await His resurrection.Men don't 'die' today because sheol is no more. New Testament saints go directly to God.
Jesus said, “He that believes in me shall NEVER die.”
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ April 02 2011,10:23) Men don't 'die' today because sheol is no more. New Testament saints go directly to God.
Where do those who AREN'T saints go? Where are they awaiting the resurrection? And where were those who died before Jesus “moved to” if Sheol is no more?mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 02 2011,11:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 02 2011,09:12) No mike He was already sitting on the Holy hill when he was begotten.
Prove that theory using the words of scripture.mike
MikeYou already have the words of scripture that say he was begotten on the Holy Hill zion on a particular day.
Prove he was begotten before time using scriptures.
WJ
Keith,
I don't know if he was begotten before time or not, but I don't really care because I'm quite confident that the abstract notion of “time” was not what John implied when he said “nothing” came into being without him.
Nor do any of us know whether or not God lives within time. Many claim that He lives outside of it, but they can't know this for sure. The fact that 1000 years is like a day to God seems to indicate that time also passes for our Creator, albeit a little slower.
What I DO know is that I've answered your point about when the disciples saw the glory of an only begotten Son……….and it was from the time of Jesus' first miracle with the wine. Why have YOU not responded to that? Because that shows Jesus had the glory mentioned in 1:14 way before he was raised from the dead.
mike
Mike said:
Quote I don't know if he was begotten before time or not, but I don't really care because I'm quite confident that the abstract notion of “time” was not what John implied when he said “nothing” came into being without him.
So when Peter applied the second Psalm to Christ's resurrection even citing it, “TODAY I have begotten you” we cannot know what this means?And when Jesus said to the thief next to Him, “TODAY you will be with Me in paradise” the thief had be left in the dark about it because time is an “abstract notion?”
You are helping Keith and I a lot more than you think dude!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 02 2011,12:26) Why have YOU not responded to that? Because that shows Jesus had the glory mentioned in 1:14 way before he was raised from the dead.
What is to address Mike?My point is the Word Monogenes was not applied to Jesus until after he came in the flesh, and you proved that because he first showed forth his Glory at the wedding.
But ask yourself Mike if it was the same Glory that he had before the foundation of the world?
What was the Glory that was returned back to him “After” his exaltation?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 02 2011,12:26) I don't know if he was begotten before time or not, but I don't really care because I'm quite confident that the abstract notion of “time” was not what John implied when he said “nothing” came into being without him
Really, then what does the “beginning” in verse 1 and 2 of John 1:1 mean if it does not mean before time?The beginning includes the beginning of time. Time starts in Genesis 1 with day (yowm) one, “the evening and the morning were the first day (yowm)”.
“Was there a day “yowm” before day “yowm” One in scripture?”
WJ
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