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This debate have been one of the major divisions of the churches. I believe, as all arguements do, Satan uses it as a tool to divide Gods people, and it has worked well. I believe Paul was referring to “works” as the belief of Jewish people that they were saved by adherance to Mosaic law, and did not put any faith whatsoever in Jesus, who was the word made flesh. Right now, in Israel, they argue about things like having garages open on Saturday, and pushing an elevator button on saturday etc. etc., an stage mass protest,but have no mass protest about new age, thousands of abortions performed there, astrology,idols etc. In my view, this was the point of his view of not being to achieve salvation through 'works'. I think it is shaky ground to believe that one is not required to do anything . Some people misunderstand this and do nothing at all, and assume that their belief alone will save them. That debate started in the very begining of the church, which prompted James to state in James 2v14 “My brothers, what good is it to profess faith without practicing it? Such faith has no power to save one, does it? ………v19, Do you believe that God is One? You are quite right. The demons believe that, and shudder. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is idle? Was not our father Abraham justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? My wife and I disagree. She says that if one is truely saved that they will do works because they love god and are saved, and if they do not do works, they are not truely saved. Now, I do believe that apart from good deeds that adherance to a perticular church doctrine will not save you. There are many churches that believe that they are the ony ones that will be saved, because they are the only ones that correctly follow the bible. The Jews believe the same thing. That is ineffective works. Well, I say the arguement only divides Gods people, Just like the devil wants it to. In the meantime I will do as many 'works' and 'deeds' as I can, first reason is becuse I love God and want to please him. Second is because I believe Jesus said that he is coming, and will reward each man as his conduct deserves. May he come soon and end this debate.Love yall, Me
mikeangle………But the Catholic and Protestants do not believe there is only (ONE) GOD Do they. They believe in the TRINITY a Triune GOD, composing of GOD the Father and God the Son and GOD the Holy Spirit. Are we to blindly follow the FALSE Teachings and still say be believe In the WORD of GOD. I Think NOT. IMO
Mikeangel,
Works can either be the works of the corrupt spirit of man, flesh, or of the spirit of holiness.
Paul teaches us that if we attempt to carry out God's commands with the works of the flesh which is to say the corrupt spirit than man is born with then we will fail. Instead in order to do all God commands we can only do it by the works of the spirit of righteousness and we can only manifest those works though faith for it is God doing his work in us.
Quote (mikeangel @ Mar. 21 2010,00:26) This debate have been one of the major divisions of the churches. I believe, as all arguements do, Satan uses it as a tool to divide Gods people, and it has worked well. I believe Paul was referring to “works” as the belief of Jewish people that they were saved by adherance to Mosaic law, and did not put any faith whatsoever in Jesus, who was the word made flesh. Right now, in Israel, they argue about things like having garages open on Saturday, and pushing an elevator button on saturday etc. etc., an stage mass protest,but have no mass protest about new age, thousands of abortions performed there, astrology,idols etc. In my view, this was the point of his view of not being to achieve salvation through 'works'. I think it is shaky ground to believe that one is not required to do anything . Some people misunderstand this and do nothing at all, and assume that their belief alone will save them. That debate started in the very begining of the church, which prompted James to state in James 2v14 “My brothers, what good is it to profess faith without practicing it? Such faith has no power to save one, does it? ………v19, Do you believe that God is One? You are quite right. The demons believe that, and shudder. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is idle? Was not our father Abraham justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? My wife and I disagree. She says that if one is truely saved that they will do works because they love god and are saved, and if they do not do works, they are not truely saved. Now, I do believe that apart from good deeds that adherance to a perticular church doctrine will not save you. There are many churches that believe that they are the ony ones that will be saved, because they are the only ones that correctly follow the bible. The Jews believe the same thing. That is ineffective works. Well, I say the arguement only divides Gods people, Just like the devil wants it to. In the meantime I will do as many 'works' and 'deeds' as I can, first reason is becuse I love God and want to please him. Second is because I believe Jesus said that he is coming, and will reward each man as his conduct deserves. May he come soon and end this debate.Love yall, Me
maTHE DIVISION IS ONLY BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE UNRIGHTEOUS,THERE IS NO MIDDLE CLASS,
THE SCRIPTURES ARE WELL WRITTEN TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO THE RIGHTEOUS SO THAT HE KNOWS WHAT TO DO ,
IT IS ONLY WHEN SOMEONE ELSE COMES IN TO POINT OUT IS VIEWS AND NOT GOD VIEWS THAT THE PROBLEM OF CONFUSSION STARTS.
BUT IF YOU LEAVE THE WORD OF GOD DO HIS WORK IN YOUR HEART IN TIME ALL WILL BECOME CLEAR AS TO WHAT HE WANTS FROM YOU PERSONALY.BECAUSE GOD CHECKS THE HEART OF PEOPLE TO THE CORE.
REMEMBER WE ONLY HAVE TO GIVE ACCOUNT OF OUR ACTIONS TO GOD NOT TO MEN.
RESEARCH OF THE TRUTH OF GOD IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY
Hi KW,
Corrupt spirit of man? What is it?
The spirit of man is never said to be corrupt.
Man does not share his own spirit with those of other men.Why do you add these concepts to scripture?
Nick Hassan,
A.K.A. the flesh, old man, sinful nature, and perhaps others.
I do not believe you understand what a spirit is in the context I speak of. Let me try to explain as you might not understand scripture if that is the case.
In Galatians 5:22-23 we are taught some of the fruit of the spirit of righteousness. Those fruit, according to the New King James Version, are “love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness and temperance. In short the fruit of the spirit of righteousness are righteous actions and motives. So from that we know that a when you chose to live by a spirit that you manifest the actions related to the nature of that spirit. One walking according to the spirit of righteousness manifests righteous actions.
Now then, lets look at what Galatians 5:19-21 states about the flesh. What is states, again according to the New King James Version of Scripture, is that, is that one who lives according to the flesh manifests the actions of “Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like.” In other words one who is walking according to the flesh manifests corrupt actions. Since the nature of the action manifested is corrupt then the spirit is also corrupt. In short the flesh is another name for the corrupt spirit.
This is thus a case of using different words or word to mean the same thing. Another case of this is when the New International Version uses the words “sinful nature” instead of flesh or that for that matter that the Greek word “sarx” is translated either to the English word “flesh” or the English words “sinful nature”.
I hope you enjoyed my language lesson.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 21 2010,22:36) Nick Hassan, A.K.A. the flesh, old man, sinful nature, and perhaps others.
I do not believe you understand what a spirit is in the context I speak of. Let me try to explain as you might not understand scripture if that is the case.
In Galatians 5:22-23 we are taught some of the fruit of the spirit of righteousness. Those fruit, according to the New King James Version, are “love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness and temperance. In short the fruit of the spirit of righteousness are righteous actions and motives. So from that we know that a when you chose to live by a spirit that you manifest the actions related to the nature of that spirit. One walking according to the spirit of righteousness manifests righteous actions.
Now then, lets look at what Galatians 5:19-21 states about the flesh. What is states, again according to the New King James Version of Scripture, is that, is that one who lives according to the flesh manifests the actions of “Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like.” In other words one who is walking according to the flesh manifests corrupt actions. Since the nature of the action manifested is corrupt then the spirit is also corrupt. In short the flesh is another name for the corrupt spirit.
This is thus a case of using different words or word to mean the same thing. Another case of this is when the New International Version uses the words “sinful nature” instead of flesh or that for that matter that the Greek word “sarx” is translated either to the English word “flesh” or the English words “sinful nature”.
I hope you enjoyed my language lesson.
KW
Paul does not say corrup spirit ,he says you walk either by the spirit or by the desirs of the flesh,not good spirit and bad spirit.
but spirit versus flesh ,But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you
Gal 5:16-18 (NASB77)that is what i see.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 21 2010,22:36) Nick Hassan, A.K.A. the flesh, old man, sinful nature, and perhaps others.
I do not believe you understand what a spirit is in the context I speak of. Let me try to explain as you might not understand scripture if that is the case.
In Galatians 5:22-23 we are taught some of the fruit of the spirit of righteousness. Those fruit, according to the New King James Version, are “love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness and temperance. In short the fruit of the spirit of righteousness are righteous actions and motives. So from that we know that a when you chose to live by a spirit that you manifest the actions related to the nature of that spirit. One walking according to the spirit of righteousness manifests righteous actions.
Now then, lets look at what Galatians 5:19-21 states about the flesh. What is states, again according to the New King James Version of Scripture, is that, is that one who lives according to the flesh manifests the actions of “Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like.” In other words one who is walking according to the flesh manifests corrupt actions. Since the nature of the action manifested is corrupt then the spirit is also corrupt. In short the flesh is another name for the corrupt spirit.
This is thus a case of using different words or word to mean the same thing. Another case of this is when the New International Version uses the words “sinful nature” instead of flesh or that for that matter that the Greek word “sarx” is translated either to the English word “flesh” or the English words “sinful nature”.
I hope you enjoyed my language lesson.
Hi KW,
So now you produce other words for CORRUPT HUMAN SPIRIT which is not in scripture. If it is not in scripture why do you hope to align these scriptural concepts with it?Inference does not fill the cracks in your personal dogma.
The Spirit of God working within those in Christ produces the good fruit.
Satan's dominion within natural men is the cause of the evil fruit, not some sort of shared and corrupted human spirit. Lay the blame where Jesus put it, with the prince of darkness, the god of this world.
Hi Mike,
you saidQuote I think it is shaky ground to believe that one is not required to do anything . Some people misunderstand this and do nothing at all, and assume that their belief alone will save them.
Like I read somewhere, Jesus died on the cross for us so just get a ticket jump on the plane and enjoy the ride. You dont need to do anything.
Though it would be nice if it was that easy, I think thats the comfort which is the trap.Was it to be that easy? Jesus said;
..Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.-(Matthew 7:13,Quote Now, I do believe that apart from good deeds that adherance to a perticular church doctrine will not save you. There are many churches that believe that they are the ony ones that will be saved, because they are the only ones that correctly follow the bible. The Jews believe the same thing. That is ineffective works. Well, I say the arguement only divides Gods people ,Just like the devil wants it to
From experience, following mans idea can be an error. I used to go to church, everyone sits listening absorbing all the man up the front says.(funnily I didnt) ..He could be saying anything and all would agree. Do we listen to Man or to God?
Thus said the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD.-(Jeremiah 17:5Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 21 2010,07:14) Mikeangel, Works can either be the works of the corrupt spirit of man, flesh, or of the spirit of holiness.
Paul teaches us that if we attempt to carry out God's commands with the works of the flesh which is to say the corrupt spirit than man is born with then we will fail. Instead in order to do all God commands we can only do it by the works of the spirit of righteousness and we can only manifest those works though faith for it is God doing his work in us.
There are many that can do good works, to say that they are doing the good works to fullfill their own ego, is not far fetched at all.So how does one know if a person good works are done by the spirit or done by the ego?
Many know what good works we are to perform, do we do them to appease god, so that he may see them or do we do our good works, because our spirit knows no other way of life.
Or does one see no difference.
Quote (princess of the king @ Mar. 22 2010,11:10) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 21 2010,07:14) Mikeangel, Works can either be the works of the corrupt spirit of man, flesh, or of the spirit of holiness.
Paul teaches us that if we attempt to carry out God's commands with the works of the flesh which is to say the corrupt spirit than man is born with then we will fail. Instead in order to do all God commands we can only do it by the works of the spirit of righteousness and we can only manifest those works though faith for it is God doing his work in us.
There are many that can do good works, to say that they are doing the good works to fullfill their own ego, is not far fetched at all.So how does one know if a person good works are done by the spirit or done by the ego?
Many know what good works we are to perform, do we do them to appease god, so that he may see them or do we do our good works, because our spirit knows no other way of life.
Or does one see no difference.
PoKgood works to me,are the works known to God,and not known to men ,otherwise you have recieved your reward.
make that your right hand does not know what your left hand gives.
good works are the ones who implicate us personly,
good deeds most be useful.most be guided by the fruits of the spirit.
Terricca,
You are arguing about words and when you argue about words it makes me believe you really do not understand what is being talked about. Paul did not use the English word “flesh” and yet if you read certain English versions that is the word they chose to use that they thought meant the same thing as what Paul stated. Is the 2000 year old common Greek version of scripture the only legitimate version of scripture. If so then why do you use an English version?
I can understand you having trouble as you may not be completely familiar with the English language but Nick has be befuddled. His argument conflicts with itself and thus makes no real sense.
Don’t get too focused on the words Paul, or anyone else in scripture uses, but look at the ideas and principles they are expressing. Spirit of corruption is the idea that Paul expresses using the word “sarx”. I admit this disagrees with the Neoplatonic heresy that has corrupted some branches of mainstream Christianity but never the less it is what Paul meant.
Scripture warns us not to argue about words, 2 Timothy 2:14.
Nck Hassan wrote:
Quote Inference does not fill the cracks in your personal dogma.
You are too quick to condemn what you do not understand. Inference means:
Quote To conclude from evidence or premises. Why would you condemn doing that?
How do you understand what you read if you do not conclude what it means from what is written, i.e. the evidence.
In short you condemn your own actions.
Are you a hypocrite that believe you are right to do it but others are wrong?
What about when the writers of scripture of even Jesus infer a teaching from scripture?
Nck Hassan wrote:
Quote So now you produce other words for CORRUPT HUMAN SPIRIT which is not in scripture. If it is not in scripture why do you hope to align these scriptural concepts with it?
If you insist on that then you make yourself a liar since I already proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the concept of a corrupt spirit is in scripture.
Satan also have the spirit of corruption and so I am not sure if corrupt human spirit is technically correct. Still, such is most likely an argument over words and what lawyers and politicians do so often. God does not appreciate us arguing over words.
Quote (princess of the king @ Mar. 22 2010,06:10) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 21 2010,07:14) Mikeangel, Works can either be the works of the corrupt spirit of man, flesh, or of the spirit of holiness.
Paul teaches us that if we attempt to carry out God's commands with the works of the flesh which is to say the corrupt spirit than man is born with then we will fail. Instead in order to do all God commands we can only do it by the works of the spirit of righteousness and we can only manifest those works though faith for it is God doing his work in us.
There are many that can do good works, to say that they are doing the good works to fullfill their own ego, is not far fetched at all.So how does one know if a person good works are done by the spirit or done by the ego?
Many know what good works we are to perform, do we do them to appease god, so that he may see them or do we do our good works, because our spirit knows no other way of life.
Or does one see no difference.
An outsider can often not tell if a “good work” is done by the flesh or the spirit of holiness. That is why the pharisees were like white washed tombs. They looked good on the outside but their motivation for righteousness was wicked.It is easier to judge your own motives but even then you can deceive yourself. You really need God to do the discerning and move your heart to change. That is also the function of the spirit of holiness.
I believe that there is some difficulty in telling if you have the spirit of holiness because even a small flaw can render an otherwise holy spirit corrupt. Take the example of the pharisee content with his own righteousness. He did many “good works” but not everything he did was righteous and he was content at being less than completely righteous. In the end his spirit though righteous in many ways was not pure.
The spirit of righteousness will therefore drive you toward the goal of complete and total righteousness that is like God's. It will not be content with anything short of that goal.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 23 2010,02:35) Terricca, You are arguing about words and when you argue about words it makes me believe you really do not understand what is being talked about. Paul did not use the English word “flesh” and yet if you read certain English versions that is the word they chose to use that they thought meant the same thing as what Paul stated. Is the 2000 year old common Greek version of scripture the only legitimate version of scripture. If so then why do you use an English version?
I can understand you having trouble as you may not be completely familiar with the English language but Nick has be befuddled. His argument conflicts with itself and thus makes no real sense.
Don’t get too focused on the words Paul, or anyone else in scripture uses, but look at the ideas and principles they are expressing. Spirit of corruption is the idea that Paul expresses using the word “sarx”. I admit this disagrees with the Neoplatonic heresy that has corrupted some branches of mainstream Christianity but never the less it is what Paul meant.
Scripture warns us not to argue about words, 2 Timothy 2:14.
KWi am not a fallower of plato,
and i just ask a question, did it pinch a nerve??
first the word flesh is used in many languages,not only in english,
so it seems they all wrong,and you are now the expert in languistics.
Who's argueing about words? Someone said in Timothy it said not to. So why turn around and do it and chastise others for it? Love and peace-Me
…seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen! (Ro.11:36)
… nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him. (1Cor.8:6)
…For even as the woman is out of the man, thus the man also is through the woman, yet all is of God. (1Cor.11:12)
…Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation. (2Cor.5:18-19)Can we do anything to obtain our salvation? No, ALL IS OF GOD. Thinking we can do something to effect our salvation is taking the glory away from God, who is the saviour of all mankind. (1Tim4:10)
Blessings, Jerry.
Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 23 2010,16:54) …seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen! (Ro.11:36) … nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him. (1Cor.8:6)
…For even as the woman is out of the man, thus the man also is through the woman, yet all is of God. (1Cor.11:12)
…Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation. (2Cor.5:18-19)Can we do anything to obtain our salvation? No, ALL IS OF GOD. Thinking we can do something to effect our salvation is taking the glory away from God, who is the saviour of all mankind. (1Tim4:10)
Blessings, Jerry.
COyes we can do something “accepting his gift”
Terraricca,
I am not sure about Neoplatonism since what I know about it is mostly based on hearsay. I do know that your words are not consistent with the intent of scripture. I already explained why that is.
I must disagree that flesh is not the same in different languages as there are cultural viewpoint differences.
For example the Hebrew word “basar” which is translated to “flesh” as well as to mankind, myself, nakedness, kin, leanfleshed, etc.
On the other hand the Greek word “Sarx” is translated to carnal, carnal-minded, flesh, and fleshly.
I found one possible connection in the translation of Ezekiel 16:26 in the New American Standard Bible which translates flesh to “lustful” but the King James Version translation is “great of flesh”.
In short your interpretation of the word “flesh” is not consistent with Hebrew thought. It is consistent with Greek thought.
Quote (mikeangel @ Mar. 23 2010,11:27) Who's argueing about words? Someone said in Timothy it said not to. So why turn around and do it and chastise others for it? Love and peace-Me
I am arguing about ideas and not words. The difference is like arguing over the spirit instead of the letter. There are even limits to doing that as some are divisive and will engage in endless arguments.
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