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Gene said:
Quote Thinker………I want to start another thread (THE Law) i want to get your input on the subject as well as others, Because i feel it is at issue in scripture and Has caused a lot of confusion with us all at times. Would you make of the study in Paul's wittings about it in ROMANS and GALATIANS , epically with regards to the Use of the DEFINITE ARTICLE (THE) in our present translations and Where the GREEK REMOVES that ARTICLE in Font of the WORD LAW in many cases. I would like your opinion on this epically how it changes the context of the scriptures Paul wrote. I will give you a few days to study it and check out the Greek wording, then i will open the thread or maybe Nick can Help me get started if I can figure who to start it. Gene,
Start the thread my brother. We'll all be there.love to you too,
thinkerthethinker,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Thinker posted –Quote Seeking,
I assure you that I have the Greek text. I possess the text which is used in the Bible colleges and Theologial Seminaries. It was required of me as a student. Just refer to the NASB.Sometimes I think you believe others should be overwhelmed with your foot work. I am sure you didn't mean it to sound this way, but from your above sentence one could conclude
you are saying the NASB is a Greek text.Marty and you already quoted the NASB. I cited the NIV
Quote RO 8:1 (NIV) Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Honoring that both renderings are acceptable, as I said:
Quote To be accurate then, Greek texts can be found that validate both renderings. I posted those texts and here they are again for reference:
Quote Rom 8:1 ουδεν αρα νυν κατακριμα τοις εν χριστω ιησου μη κατα σαρκα περιπατουσιν αλλα κατα πνευμα
Greek New Testament with variantsQuote Rom 8:1 Οὐδὲν ἄρα νῦν κατάκριμα τοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ ᾿Ιησοῦ μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν, ἀλλά κατά πνεῦμα.
Greek New Testament Majority TextYou stated –
Quote The thing that boggles my mind is that you had two years of Greek and you are unaware? Did you study Greek informally on your own? Or did you study it for credit? My questioning is NOT intended to embarrass you. Unaware of what? That you think you have an education superior to others? Unware that you hoped no one else knew there where more renderings, English and Greek, than you exposesd us to. Unaware that the seminaries and schools you attended had a handle on it all and the rest of us should throw our education and understanding to the winds?
I regret that my lead in statement offended you. I cited the Byzantine and Majority Text. I am also aware there is a variant in the text at the point you suggest. As I share on these forums, I choose to expose the whole picture and not texts that simply support my stand.
Your statement, “ NOT intended to embarrass you.
does not ring of truth as I read what you said just prior,'The thing that boggles my mind is that you had two years of Greek and you are unaware? Did you study Greek informally on your own?' Therefore, any answer other than to say my Greek backgound is at least parallel to yours will not be forthcoming.Luv you maan,
hugs and kisses,Seeking
Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 06 2009,12:04) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 05 2009,16:05) But although we are not saved by good works, it should be clear that if a person is not obeying the gospel through love, he is not saved. Quote 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Marty,Thanks for the reply. Couldn't be plainer, could it!
I'll join you in that prayer.
Seeking
Walk as He walked. Absolutely, yet it seems strange that will all the words spoken here few seem to wnt to show how their conclussions help us to walk as He walked.You know we have a variety of education on this board. One thing that is very common is the amount of religious people that are on here.
You have those with little education in the word and continually post the same scriptures over and over again with their same opinion over and over. Then you have those that are the first to tell you about their Bible College
Education and ministries and then pride themaelves on their debate skills. These two groups either spout off highly intelecualised philosophy or repititous pander. Rarely do I see one of them that can actually tell me how their post will help me become like Christ. They do not build hope by their teachings. They do not make Christ a more understandable example. They muddy the waters with teachings that lead to mysteries that cannot be answered and concepts that cannot be proven. They never explain how their conclusions produce good fruit. All they can do is show you more head knowledge. Their philosophies lack the power of God to transform lives. Worst of all is that they seem to not care. Not only do they ignore the whole point of Christian ministry, to help others grow into the likeness of Christ, their doctrines actually call into question the character of God and the purposefulness of His plan.
For this reason I take much of what goes on here as a game. There is very little serious intent. At least not serious to help others.Hi,
This quote from a catholic source about the canon is interesting“The different status of some New Testament books resurfaced again during Reformation in sixteenth century. Martin Luther, although he included James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation in his list of New Testament, he considered them to have inferior status. He particularly disliked James which he labeled (in his 1522 German translation of New Testament) as “Epistle of Straw”. In addition, he added the word “only” in Rom 4:28 to support his doctrine of “sola fide” or “salvation by faith alone”.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2009,14:37) Hi,
This quote from a catholic source about the canon is interesting“The different status of some New Testament books resurfaced again during Reformation in sixteenth century. Martin Luther, although he included James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation in his list of New Testament, he considered them to have inferior status. He particularly disliked James which he labeled (in his 1522 German translation of New Testament) as “Epistle of Straw”. In addition, he added the word “only” in Rom 4:28 to support his doctrine of “sola fide” or “salvation by faith alone”.
Nick,Good info. I read recently that it was Luther who first coined the phrase and added “faith alone” to the text in Romans.
It is a constant struggle for all of us to avoid being version bound, manuscript bound etc. only because it favors our pre-assumptions.
Luther, the scholar that he was, elected to ad to the text in spite of the text in Revelation –
Quote REV 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. I recognize this text may only apply to the book of Revelation, yet I always thought it a ppoint to take to heart overall.
Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (martian @ Feb. 12 2009,08:24) Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 06 2009,12:04) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 05 2009,16:05) But although we are not saved by good works, it should be clear that if a person is not obeying the gospel through love, he is not saved. Quote 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Marty,Thanks for the reply. Couldn't be plainer, could it!
I'll join you in that prayer.
Seeking
Walk as He walked. Absolutely, yet it seems strange that will all the words spoken here few seem to wnt to show how their conclussions help us to walk as He walked.You know we have a variety of education on this board. One thing that is very common is the amount of religious people that are on here.
You have those with little education in the word and continually post the same scriptures over and over again with their same opinion over and over. Then you have those that are the first to tell you about their Bible College
Education and ministries and then pride themaelves on their debate skills. These two groups either spout off highly intelecualised philosophy or repititous pander. Rarely do I see one of them that can actually tell me how their post will help me become like Christ. They do not build hope by their teachings. They do not make Christ a more understandable example. They muddy the waters with teachings that lead to mysteries that cannot be answered and concepts that cannot be proven. They never explain how their conclusions produce good fruit. All they can do is show you more head knowledge. Their philosophies lack the power of God to transform lives. Worst of all is that they seem to not care. Not only do they ignore the whole point of Christian ministry, to help others grow into the likeness of Christ, their doctrines actually call into question the character of God and the purposefulness of His plan.
For this reason I take much of what goes on here as a game. There is very little serious intent. At least not serious to help others.
Hi Martian:Don't you know it is about winning the debate that matters?
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 11 2009,14:59)
94,Quote You know we have a variety of education on this board. One thing that is very common is the amount of religious people that are on here.
You have those with little education in the word and continually post the same scriptures over and over again with their same opinion over and over. Then you have those that are the first to tell you about their Bible College
Education and ministries and then pride themaelves on their debate skills. These two groups either spout off highly intelecualised philosophy or repititous pander. Rarely do I see one of them that can actually tell me how their post will help me become like Christ. They do not build hope by their teachings. They do not make Christ a more understandable example. They muddy the waters with teachings that lead to mysteries that cannot be answered and concepts that cannot be proven. They never explain how their conclusions produce good fruit. All they can do is show you more head knowledge. Their philosophies lack the power of God to transform lives. Worst of all is that they seem to not care. Not only do they ignore the whole point of Christian ministry, to help others grow into the likeness of Christ, their doctrines actually call into question the character of God and the purposefulness of His plan.
For this reason I take much of what goes on here as a game. There is very little serious intent. At least not serious to help othersQuote Hi Martian: Don't you know it is about winning the debate that matters?
Yes! If I heard you right, I want to be the first to repent.
It still holds true,Quote 1CO 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? It is much harder work to build each other up in the faith than to tear each other up with philosophies. Guilty as charged.
Blessings,
Seeking
Hi martian.
You say
“For this reason I take much of what goes on here as a game. There is very little serious intent. At least not serious to help others. “Can you afford to be so negative towards everyone else?
Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 12 2009,09:16) 942767,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
94,Quote You know we have a variety of education on this board. One thing that is very common is the amount of religious people that are on here.
You have those with little education in the word and continually post the same scriptures over and over again with their same opinion over and over. Then you have those that are the first to tell you about their Bible College
Education and ministries and then pride themaelves on their debate skills. These two groups either spout off highly intelecualised philosophy or repititous pander. Rarely do I see one of them that can actually tell me how their post will help me become like Christ. They do not build hope by their teachings. They do not make Christ a more understandable example. They muddy the waters with teachings that lead to mysteries that cannot be answered and concepts that cannot be proven. They never explain how their conclusions produce good fruit. All they can do is show you more head knowledge. Their philosophies lack the power of God to transform lives. Worst of all is that they seem to not care. Not only do they ignore the whole point of Christian ministry, to help others grow into the likeness of Christ, their doctrines actually call into question the character of God and the purposefulness of His plan.
For this reason I take much of what goes on here as a game. There is very little serious intent. At least not serious to help othersQuote Hi Martian: Don't you know it is about winning the debate that matters?
Yes! If I heard you right, I want to be the first to repent.
It still holds true,Quote 1CO 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? It is much harder work to build each other up in the faith than to tear each other up with philosophies. Guilty as charged.
Blessings,
Seeking
Hi Brother:I am just tired of the division in the church. I would like for God to bring us into unity.
I do appreciate all the hard work that the scholars went through in translating the scriptures so that I can read them in English, and if someone has a formal education that is wonderful.
Again, just want to see the church come into unity so that people will want to come and be saved.
Jesus in prayer is also my prayer:
Quote Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 12 2009,09:17) Hi martian.
You say
“For this reason I take much of what goes on here as a game. There is very little serious intent. At least not serious to help others. “Can you afford to be so negative towards everyone else?
It is not about being negative toward others as much as it is negative toward other's methods. However, if a person choses to make himself one with his method,then they chose that negative.
This is your bag, Nick, I expect you to defend it.Seeking said:
Quote Sometimes I think you believe others should be overwhelmed with your foot work. I am sure you didn't mean it to sound this way, but from your above sentence one could conclude
you are saying the NASB is a Greek text.Seeking,
First, I was not the first person to ever mention “foot work” done. It was you who first posted that you took two years of Greek. So let's keep that in mind. Second, my reference to the NASB is for the sake of those who don't have a Greek text or can even read Greek. If I would have referred Marty directly to the Greek text I would not be helping Marty or anyone else if they didn't have a Greek text or even knew how to read it.
Third, copying and pasting the Greek characters as you do doesn't help anyone who doesn't know Greek. But referring them to an English translation which I believe comes from a Greek text that is uncorrupted does help them. Fourth, you incited me to bring up my education by your statement,
Quote I want to believe that you have a Greek text that reads as you say. I thought this was a bizarre coment and felt that I should answer it. I didn't bring up my “foot work” out of the blue you know. You gave me occasion to do so. Fifth, when I first saw your username “Seeking” I assumed that you think on your own which is what it means to be a new covenant Christian. Yet I find that you do not think outside the Evangelical box but you rather regurgitate tradition. You are free to think outside the “box” for Hebrews says,
Quote For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. NONE of them shall teach his neighbor, and NONE his brother, saying, “Know the LORD,” for they ALL shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. (Heb. 10:10-11) We really don't need “ordained” pastors now do we? We are free to think for ourselves aren't we? It says that “None shall teach us for we ALL shall know the Lord from the least to the greatest.” Ideally the new covenant child of God is self taught. Btw, this argues for my case that the new covenant age is post-apostolic for at the beginning of its inception the church needed apostles and prophets. But now “NONE shall teach us”.
Are you really “Seeking”? Or will you continue to regurgitate what you have been taught?
hugs and kisses again,
thinkerHi martian,
We have seen you come and go over the years when you get upset but we do value your insights when you are here.Why you have such contempt for others is for you to sort out but it must leave you feeling pretty alone.
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2009,15:49)
Thinker,Here is where my “Seeking” has brought me –
Hi Martian:
Don't you know it is about winning the debate that matters?
Yes! If I heard you right, I want to be the first to repent.
It still holds true,1CO 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
It is much harder work to build each other up in the faith than to tear each other up with philosophies. Guilty as charged.
Blessings,
Seeking
I will now move forward in my “seeking” which is actually a
return to where I was.Quote 1CO 13:1-8 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails
I have found the solution to the law, prophets and all else –
Quote MT>22:37 which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: ” `Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” I leave others to the debating, arguing, and dividing of the body of Christ and part with one thought to them,
Quote
“Gal:5:15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.Forgive me for anything and everything I have done that did not clearly show a spirit of love.
Blessings,
Seeking
Martian wrote:
Quote You know we have a variety of education on this board. One thing that is very common is the amount of religious people that are on here.
You have those with little education in the word and continually post the same scriptures over and over again with their same opinion over and over. Then you have those that are the first to tell you about their Bible College
Education and ministries and then pride themaelves on their debate skills. These two groups either spout off highly intelecualised philosophy or repititous pander. Rarely do I see one of them that can actually tell me how their post will help me become like Christ. They do not build hope by their teachings. They do not make Christ a more understandable example. They muddy the waters with teachings that lead to mysteries that cannot be answered and concepts that cannot be proven. They never explain how their conclusions produce good fruit. All they can do is show you more head knowledge. Their philosophies lack the power of God to transform lives. Worst of all is that they seem to not care. Not only do they ignore the whole point of Christian ministry, to help others grow into the likeness of Christ, their doctrines actually call into question the character of God and the purposefulness of His plan.
For this reason I take much of what goes on here as a game. There is very little serious intent. At least not serious to help othersMartian,
You give off the same vibs in my opinion. You boasted that you're the only one here who uses sources and that all the rest of us are just stating our “opinion”. You argue that the sources are the “experts”. But when it comes right down to it you mean that only your sources are the experts. You forced me to produce a source when I tried to get you to comment on scripture in its context. It was like pulling teeth. I couldn't get you to comment on Scripture in context.So I finally gave in and produced a source. And you dismissed it like I anticipated you would. You said that it was outdated and not up to the “archaeloogical digs” without even showing which archaeloogical digs refuted the Hebrew Grammar in my source. Are we to believe that new archaeological discoveries will change how Hebrew verbs were congugated in ancient times? If this is the case, then no one can know what Scripture says until the next archaeological discovery. We are left in the dark about God's word until men of “wisdom” come in the future with their findings.
And if my sources are tentative because all the evidence isn't in yet then ALL sources are tentative. This means that you can't speak with anymore confidence than I can. You boasted first that you are the only one here that uses sources and does not speak “opinion.” If you boast I will boast. I asked you only to comment on Scripture in context. You were the first to boast. So you're not pure in heart either,
Quote Who can say “I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin”? (Prov. 20:9) thinker
Hi TT,
You say
“We really don't need “ordained” pastors now do we? We are free to think for ourselves aren't we? It says that “None shall teach us for we ALL shall know the Lord from the least to the greatest.” Ideally the new covenant child of God is self taught. Btw, this argues for my case that the new covenant age is post-apostolic for at the beginning of its inception the church needed apostles and prophets. But now “NONE shall teach us”.Are you really “Seeking”? Or will you continue to regurgitate what you have been taught?”
What we have seen here in this forum is the gross overconfidence of many who think they have been saved and who claim they have the mind of Christ and are led by the Spirit in their thoughts and teachings, but the evidence from their pen shows they are adrift from the anchor of the soul and their words in no way reflect the Spirit of Christ.
Freedom is servitude to scriptural truth and not speculative fancy.
Hi thethinker:
Relative to your post of the following scripture and your commentary:
Quote Quote
For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. NONE of them shall teach his neighbor, and NONE his brother, saying, “Know the LORD,” for they ALL shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. (Heb. 10:10-11)We really don't need “ordained” pastors now do we? We are free to think for ourselves aren't we? It says that “None shall teach us for we ALL shall know the Lord from the least to the greatest.” Ideally the new covenant child of God is self taught. Btw, this argues for my case that the new covenant age is post-apostolic for at the beginning of its inception the church needed apostles and prophets. But now “NONE shall teach us”.
Then the following scripture is no longer valid?
Quote Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:It doesn't appear to me that we have reached the state described in verse 4:13 above.
Love in Christ,
MartyNick……….If you feel that way then post the errors that some says, instead you are doing the same thing you accuse others of , you pushing your belief system as “the truth”. So what makes you so different. It's like lets all believe Nick, no matter how little He understands about a subject, and if others give their views on the subject and it doesn't agree with you ” they are preaching or rationalizing” or Regurgitating, as if your aren't, we have speculative fancy but you “scriptural truth”, when you can't even explain you views many time for lack of understanding. But criticize others for theirs. Does Hypocrisy sound familiar here.
love and peace to you……………………………gene
GB,
Scripture is truth and we help show it to searchers.Jn17
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.Why not do the same?
As others have said your opinions do not rateNick………I also have heard other say your opinions do not also. in fact i have seen many say that. bottom line is your pushing your own belief system and do not want to tolerate other views, because you have positioned yourself above others as a upholder of what is “truth” right.
peace……………………………………..gene
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