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Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 27 2011,00:00) I believe He existed within the Father before He was begotten from the Father.
Was he alive as the Son, the Word with the Father from eternity?WJ
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 27 2011,14:07) You interpret scripture based on your preconceived belief not that scriptures have taught you anything else otherwise.
I never read a Bible until about three years ago. I didn't go to a church or join HN until I was on my second time through the Bible. In other words, I learned scriptural truth by myself by reading the written word of God. I had no pre-conceived notions going in, and still don't. The “notions” I have are the ones I learned directly from scripture, and no man.I have been corrected on a few minor misunderstandings by being shown scriptures I had not taken into consideration. But the main story of Jesus and God is exactly how I just posted it to Kathi. This is what the scriptures teach, and therefore what I believe.
Now, if you don't reconize Barak Obama as one of the leaders of the free world, then there is nothing I can do for you. THAT is why I bailed. I don't have time to argue your petty disagreements like whether Barak is a leader of the free world or not. It's senseless, a waste of my time, and does not magically add the word “OR” into Gal 4:14, like you want.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2011,10:49) Keith, does calling a vice regent of God a “god” promote polytheism? YES or NO?
MikeThe answer is “YES”. Do you know why I know this? It is because there is not one single example of a follower of YHVH calling any being “their” God or god, is there?
That means that to them they are not gods and if they were then that would be “Polytheism”.
The definition of Polytheism then and now was the belief in and worship of more than one God.
YHVH said beside him there is no God. Pure and simple.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:15) Kathi I find it amazing that like Mike you also use “Trinitarian” quotes to prove the opposite of their conclusions.
Not everything Satan says is a lie, is it Keith? Can we help it if the Trinitarians start off speaking scriptural truths that we can agree with, but then confusingly come to a bizarre conclusion from those scriptural truths?Should I look for that one post I made where I was taking your trinitarian quote sentence by sentence, and it was all exactly scriptural except his out of the blue opposite conclusion at the end of it?
mike
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 27 2011,11:48) Galatians 4:14
and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.
Mike, Its obvious Paul seperated the two statements. He emphasizes how they treated him as if he was an Angel or Chirst Jesus himself.
Its two seperate statements. Maybe you have alot to Learn OLD man.
DennisonTrue. If Paul is saying Jesus is an angel he could have said Jesus was the Angel. But instead he makes a distinction between them and it looks to me he is saying “you recieved me not only like an angel but “Even” as Jesus himself, meaning Jesus is greater than the Angel.
In fact that is what Hebrews tells us but Mike is sticking his head in the sand on this one.
He claims Jesus is our brother yet Jesus is not human.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2011,12:30) Good post. Keith also always seems to forget that our “only true God” is the Father. So if he wants to take it literally, he must accept that Jesus is not a “true god” at all. Because there's no way to work “the Father AND I” into John 17:3 or 1 Cor 8:6.
MikeWhat do you mean by taking it literally? Don't you take the scriptures literally?
No it is your theology that says there is more than “One True God” because you believe Jesus is “a true god” and not “One God with the Father.
Trinitarians believe the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are One God.
You and kathi believe they are “two gods”. One had a beginning and the other didn't.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2011,15:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:15) Kathi I find it amazing that like Mike you also use “Trinitarian” quotes to prove the opposite of their conclusions.
Not everything Satan says is a lie, is it Keith? Can we help it if the Trinitarians start off speaking scriptural truths that we can agree with, but then confusingly come to a bizarre conclusion from those scriptural truths?Should I look for that one post I made where I was taking your trinitarian quote sentence by sentence, and it was all exactly scriptural except his out of the blue opposite conclusion at the end of it?
mike
MikeThe point is if their conclusions are different than yours then maybe when you quote them you are not properly representing them but rather are misrepresenting them.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:27)
The answer is “YES”. Do you know why I know this? It is because there is not one single example of a follower of YHVH calling any being “their” God or god, is there?
I'm gratified and satisfied that you are being reduced to such irrelevant “trinity defending” statements as this one above. Are we to believe that a god is only a god if someone is recorded in scripture as claiming that god as their own?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:27)
That means that to them they are not gods and if they were then that would be “Polytheism”.
Psalm 82:1 NET
God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment.
Are these gods in the assembly of “El”, of whom God is “in the midst” not really gods at all? Or is it that God Himself was promoting polytheism by inspiring the Psalmist to write this?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:27)
The definition of Polytheism then and now was the belief in and worship of more than one God.
You confuse polytheism, Keith. Polytheism is not the BELIEF that other gods exist, it is the WORSHIPPING of them that makes it polytheism. The Bible clearly teaches that other gods exist, is the Bible a polytheistic Book?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:27)
YHVH said beside him there is no God. Pure and simple.
And how do you understand that in light of Jehovah clearly saying to His judges, “You are gods……..”? How do you understand it in light of the first commandment? I mean, how could we POSSIBLY have any god before Him if there were no other gods? How do you understand it in light of Jehovah being the God OF gods? Or in light of the scripture I quoted above?mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2011,15:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:15) Kathi I find it amazing that like Mike you also use “Trinitarian” quotes to prove the opposite of their conclusions.
Not everything Satan says is a lie, is it Keith?
MikeOh I see, what you don't agree with is satans lies right?
So since you think they are satans source then why use their material at all? Could it be that there is no reliable information found in the “Arian” community?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:44) Mike What do you mean by taking it literally? Don't you take the scriptures literally?
Keith, if scripture says our only true God is THE FATHER, then why don't you take THAT literally?mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:36) But instead he makes a distinction between them and it looks to me he is saying “you recieved me not only like an angel but “Even” as Jesus himself, meaning Jesus is greater than the Angel.
Maybe you guys are seeing something I'm not. Could you point me to the “OR” or the “EVEN” that shows the distinction Paul was making?mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2011,15:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:15) Kathi I find it amazing that like Mike you also use “Trinitarian” quotes to prove the opposite of their conclusions.
Not everything Satan says is a lie, is it Keith? Can we help it if the Trinitarians start off speaking scriptural truths that we can agree with, but then confusingly come to a bizarre conclusion from those scriptural truths?Should I look for that one post I made where I was taking your trinitarian quote sentence by sentence, and it was all exactly scriptural except his out of the blue opposite conclusion at the end of it?
mike
MikeThe point is if their conclusions are different than yours then maybe when you quote them you are not properly representing them but rather are misrepresenting them.
WJ
Okay Keith,You asked for it. I'll start looking for that post.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2011,15:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:27)
The answer is “YES”. Do you know why I know this? It is because there is not one single example of a follower of YHVH calling any being “their” God or god, is there?
I'm gratified and satisfied that you are being reduced to such irrelevant “trinity defending” statements as this one above. Are we to believe that a god is only a god if someone is recorded in scripture as claiming that god as their own?
Interpretation is mike doesn't have any scripture to support his theory that the Bible teaches Polytheism.WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2011,16:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:44) Mike What do you mean by taking it literally? Don't you take the scriptures literally?
Keith, if scripture says our only true God is THE FATHER, then why don't you take THAT literally?mike
I DOJust like I believe a husband and wife is “One Flesh” literally.
Why are you shouting?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,15:02)
So since you think they are satans source then why use their material at all?
Keith, when Satan quoted scripture and told Jesus to throw himself from the cliff, he spoke the truth. But that doesn't mean his conclusion that it was okay to test Jehovah was the correct one, does it?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,15:02)
Could it be that there is no reliable information found in the “Arian” community?
What do we need our own source for? We can prove Jesus is not God Almighty using the information from your own scholars!
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,15:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2011,15:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:27)
The answer is “YES”. Do you know why I know this? It is because there is not one single example of a follower of YHVH calling any being “their” God or god, is there?
I'm gratified and satisfied that you are being reduced to such irrelevant “trinity defending” statements as this one above. Are we to believe that a god is only a god if someone is recorded in scripture as claiming that god as their own?
Interpretation is mike doesn't have any scripture to support his theory that the Bible teaches Polytheism.WJ
You are absolutely correct, Keith. There is NO scripture that PROMOTES polytheism. In fact, it is frowned upon by Jehovah.Yet, here you are, promoting the worship of someone besides God Almighty.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2011,15:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:27)
That means that to them they are not gods and if they were then that would be “Polytheism”.
Psalm 82:1 NET
God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment.
Are these gods in the assembly of “El”, of whom God is “in the midst” not really gods at all? Or is it that God Himself was promoting polytheism by inspiring the Psalmist to write this?
MikeAre you serious? Who stood in the congregation? Was it literraly “gods”? No it was rulers or judges and in fact other translations render it that way..
God takes His stand in *His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. NASB
God hath stood in the company of God, In the midst God doth judge. YLT
When are you going to learn that God would not allow other gods in his Temple. That would surely be a violation of the commandments.
WJ
Crap! I am so mad at myself for falling into it yet again! I have followed you from a discussion about John 1:1 down the rabbit hole into a discussion about “everything at the speed of light”.
Keith, is Jesus “THE GOD” he was WITH in John 1:1?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2011,16:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,15:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2011,15:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2011,14:27)
The answer is “YES”. Do you know why I know this? It is because there is not one single example of a follower of YHVH calling any being “their” God or god, is there?
I'm gratified and satisfied that you are being reduced to such irrelevant “trinity defending” statements as this one above. Are we to believe that a god is only a god if someone is recorded in scripture as claiming that god as their own?
Interpretation is mike doesn't have any scripture to support his theory that the Bible teaches Polytheism.WJ
You are absolutely correct, Keith. There is NO scripture that PROMOTES polytheism. In fact, it is frowned upon by Jehovah.Yet, here you are, promoting the worship of someone besides God Almighty.
mike
I worship and serve only “One Lord and God” Mike.You serve more than one Lord and one god.
WJ
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