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Quote (Pastry @ May 11 2011,00:44) Quote (Paladin @ May 10 2011,20:37) Quote (Pastry @ May 10 2011,09:22) Quote All this passage proces is that God raised Jesus to be the firstborn from the dead, and arranged it so that christians would comform to his image, and be younger brothers to him who was firstborn. No “pre-existance” required other than the resurrection.
That is not so…
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Jesus is not only the firstborn of all creation verse 15, but also the firstborn from the dead, so in all things He may have preeminence. He is firstborn of all creation. and firstborn from the dead…..
Peace Irene
If I tell you I am going to share with you and your husband, all of the treasure of my home, whether it is my front yard or my porch, would you expect to have a claim on my domestic treasure in the backyard of my home?Have I not made it clear when I used a limitimg parameter,
“Whether?” When I said “all of the treasure whether it is my front yard or my porch? Do you not understand that the phrase “all of the treasure of my home” has been modified by the limiting parameter “Whether?”“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:” [Col 1:16]
The same principle applies when Paul uses “whether” in this verse, it is a limiting parameter detailing the scope of “all things.”
Paladin! What I find amazing of your last post is, that you take one WORD and take it apart. When it says He is the firstborn of all creation, AND the firstborn from the death, you ignore it…. Why?
It says both, not just one…..According to you we have just one firstborn of the death. your explanation is short of everything else…..Peace Irene
And you choose to totally ignore its lesson? Amazing!Quote (Pastry @ May 11 2011,01:33) Quote When God said Jesus is the firstborn of creation, it was well after the crucifixion, and resurrection, both of which took place in the 33rd year of Jesus' life. Paul tells us of Jesus being the firstborn of creation in 60 a.d. Paladin! That makes no sense at all. When we read all in the New and Old Testament it is after Jesus resurrection.
Irene, do you read what you post before you post it?
I think it is safe to say, everybody understands that some things happened before the flood, and some things happened after the flood, and scripture does not mix them up in the stories about them.
So also, sonme things happened before the birth of jesus and some things happened after the birth of Jesus, but scripture does not mix them up in telling about them.
And again, some things happened before the resurrection, and some things happened after the resurrection, and scripture does not mix them up in telling the stories about them.
Jesus was begotten of the Holy SPirit, born of Mary, lived a typical life of a typical Hebrew child, except for the instance of the temple when he was a boy of twelve. Beng obedient to his parents, he remained with them until God called him to serve, when he was about thirty years of age.
He was baptized of John in Jordan, and began his mission; during which he set about to establishe the new earth, by telling us a new and living way to relate to our fellow man; it is called the sermon on the mount, and is recorded in Mat 5-7.
He continued to teach and demonstrate, and exemplify the new and living way, so that by the time of his death, it was well understood by his disciples, what was expected of them. They were to serve, not rule.
Jesus was then murdered. This was followed by the resurrection; the establishing point for most of what followed.
Scripture tells us all things “are become new” in Christ Jesus; [II Cor 5:17] – Now, Irene, please pay close attention here, for it is significant. “Are become new” in the verse referenced is indicative perfect active. It means that in Christ Jesus, by the time Paul writes the II Corinthian letter [55.a.d.], it has already been accomplished; all things are now part of the new creation. Only it did not happen in 55 a.d., Paul only began to write about it in 55 a.d. It happened in 33 a.d. when Jesus was killed and resurrected.
Just as the flood was a separating point in the history of the ancient people, so also the resurrection of Jesus was a separating point in the history of the establishment of the church, and all significant things that happened are on one side of that event, or they are on the other side of that event.
Prior to Jesus entering heaven and causing all thrones and dominions, and principalities and powers to move over one place to accomodate the new master of the universe, except only one who is the father, with that promotion and moving around of the extablished hjierarchy, all things in heaven and on earth now became new. THAT was the establishing point in the chronology of the history of all the stories in all of the scriptures.
Jesus made all things on earth new before he died, but they did not take effect until all things were made new in heaven also, because it depended upon “all things” being made new, some on earth, some in heaven. Once Jesus ascended and sat down on the right hand of the throne of his father, it was accomplished. But this took place after the resurrection.
Jesus the son of David had established the newness of all, and was declared to be the son of God by the resurrection. That was the point at which God declaed him to be his son; The day of his resurrection. “Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,2 Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:” [Rom 1:1-4]
Only now, only after this declaration, though he was already the son of God, he was not the son of God under the new creation, until God so pronounced the fact, and it had to be after the resurrection was accomplished. That was the point of discernment established by God's own proclamation fo a fact already accomplished.
The fact that it may have been a minute, or an hour, or even a day after the resurrection, it still remains a certainty that God proclaimed the day of the resurrection, as the day all things are become [indicative perfect active] new as pertains to the creation. Jesus is now the firstborn from the dead, Jesus is now the firstborn of all creation, because both Jesus by the resurrection, and the creation by Jesus, are established as new things in God's heaven and on God's earth.
You cannot continue to ignore this chronology of facts as established in God's own word about how and when all these things took place.
When in 60 a.d., when Paul begins to write about the events, he by inspiration knew the certainty of what he spoke. He had no problem with saying Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, because Paul had already established the point of no return when he told of the resurrection being the day Jesus was declared to be the son of God; he was stated to be the firstborn from the dead, and he was declared to be the firstborn of all [new] creation.
Grace and Hope to you and yours Irene.
Quote
Irene, do you read what you post before you post it?Yes, I do…. And i will say this much…. Whether the translators wrote all in sequence, I go by the saying “here a little and there a little.”
Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:
You logic is drinking milk? Mine is eating meat, and I like it…..
I stand by that the New creation is in Jesus. While Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. He was brought forth by God, not men…. A literal Son of God…
Firstborn of all creation, AND FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD……. SO IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE…..What is certain, my friend, that you are wrong…. But will you admit it?
BTW I always make sure what I say is correct…; I have proven that Jesus preexisted by Scriptures…. At least to myself…. Can I prove it to you? No…. that you have to do yourself….Peace Irene
Quote (Paladin @ May 11 2011,07:00)
Jesus the son of David had established the newness of all, and was declared to be the son of God by the resurrection. That was the point at which God declaed him to be his son; The day of his resurrection.
Matthew 3
16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
Was that not a declaration by God?Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
Was that not a declaration by God?Matthew 16
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
Was that not a declaration by God made directly to Peter?Yet you claim that God declared Jesus to be His Son only after the resurrection?
Quote (Paladin @ May 11 2011,07:00)
2 Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:” [Rom 1:2-4]
You skipped over the last 4 words of verse three, which tell us that Jesus was an offspring of David “according to the flesh” only. Jesus tried to explain to the Pharisees that he was more than just a regular offspring of David in Matthew 22:41-46………..and he left them speechless by his teaching.You also glossed over the two most important words of verse 4: “with power”. This is what NETNotes says about it:
Paul is not saying that Jesus was appointed the “Son of God by the resurrection” but “Son-of-God-in-power by the resurrection,” as indicated by the hyphenation. He was born in weakness in human flesh (with respect to the flesh, v. 3) and he was raised with power. This is similar to Matt 28:18 where Jesus told his disciples after the resurrection, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”
I agree with them, for we know from many scriptures that Jesus was already “THE Son of God” before he was resurrected. And the scriptures show no support to your implication that, “under a new creation”, the Father/Son relationship between Jehovah and Jesus changed in any way.But most importantly, you keep avoiding Hebrews 1:2 in your assertion that only the “new age” was created through Jesus. And I keep asking you why 1:2 says “through whom He created the ages”, as in “more than one age”, but you keep ignoring my question.
Perhaps you could answer it now?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2011,12:07) That's a cop-out Marty. I posted words straight out of the scriptures, and you joked about my “vivid imagination”. Stop joking for a minute and SHOW ME the thing I posted that is NOT the words of the scriptures.
No, Mike:Not a cop out, but I have been over and over the same material time and time again with you and we still do not agree and so, we will just have to agree to disagree.
You say:
Quote But you left out the part where he was existing in the form of God BEFORE he was made as a human being. This is what I mean by your having a vivid imagination.
Where do the scriptures specifically state this?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ May 11 2011,19:01) You say: Quote But you left out the part where he was existing in the form of God BEFORE he was made as a human being. This is what I mean by your having a vivid imagination.
Where do the scriptures specifically state this?
To which part do you refer? What exact word(s) do you take issue with, Marty?mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 10 2011,13:56) [/quote] Quote (Paladin @ May 09 2011,06:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,03:14)
But Micah 5:2 says his origins are from ancient times.And just what do you think prophecies are? If God prophesied that Mike would be saved by obeying the gospel, would not Mikes' prophesied goings forth be from of old through the prophecy?
Ah, but Micah wasn't prophesying about future “goings forth” was he?No! But the prophecies from ancient times were about the future Messiah, like Gen 3:15, and 17:4,5, and Exo 3:14, and all the other prophecies from prophets that preceded Micah, who was an 8th century b.c. prophet.
Abraham was “called” out of Ur of the Chaldees approximately 427 years following the flood. The “gospel was preached unto Abraham” [Gal 3:8]in the twentieth century before Christ. That makes twelve centuries prior to Micah that the “goings forth” of Messiah were considered “ancient” by the prophet Micah.
Quote (Paladin @ May 09 2011,06:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,03:14) And Phil 2 says he was EXISTING in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being. You need to consider exactly what was being said in Phil 2:5-8. First of all, “being in a form of God” did not change when he “took upon him a form of a servant. It says nothing about his form changing.
Quote What exactly did he “empty himself” of? Quote (Paladin @ May 09 2011,06:41)
When Jesus, who was born to be a king [John 18:37], and could have commanded angels [mat 26:53]; instead, washed the disciples feet, thus taking on him the form of a servant, But his form as king and angel commander did not alter one bit. And neither did his being in a form of God. As a matter of course, being the son of God made him a form of God, without making him God. You cannot be both a thing and a form of the thing, at the same time.Quote I don't claim Jesus is God and never have, so your last point is wasted on me. All I need to know from you about Phil 2, is at what point was he “made in the likeness of a human being”? Do you see that there is a string of events that took place? He WAS existing in the form of God. He THEN emptied himself. He THEN was made in the likeness of a human being. Figure out that last part for me. If you were the only reader to be considered, then I might allow you to direct how I respond, but there are other readers, some of whom may be trinitarians, and myresponse will try to cover several aspects of the issues you raise. So, please, do not tell me my response is “wasted” on you. you are not the only reader.
Quote (Paladin @ May 09 2011,06:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,03:14) And John 17:5 says he HIMSELF had glory alongside God before the creation of the world. Actually John says no such thing. Just because “para” is sometimes translated “beside” does not mean para means “along side of.”
It can also mean “by way of promise” as recorded in Acts 2:33 –
“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received [para] of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
Not exactly Paladin. Here's what is meant by the use of “para” in Acts 2:33: (pará) usually adds the overtone, “from close beside”
So Acts 2:33 says that Jesus had been exalted to the right hand of God – about as “close beside” God as one can get – and had recieved the promise of the Holy Spirit “from close beside” God, and then proceeded to pour that Spirit out on his disciples.
Paladin, you have again butchered the meaning of the Greek words – just like you tried to do with Psalm 138:2. And that's not cool, because a lot of the members here don't take the time to check if what you're claiming is legit. You are misleading people here, and they are believing you.
The word “epangelian”, which means “promise”, is not even in John 17:5. And your claim that it means “by way of promise” doesn't even work in Acts 2:33, which DOES have the word “epangelian” in it. The word “para” IS sometimes translated as “by”, as in “I'm standing BY you”, but not “by way of”. And even if it was, then Acts 2:33 would be saying “and having received [para/BY WAY OF] the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost”. See? Even IF “by way of” was accurate, it wouldn't be saying “by way of PROMISE”, but “by way of THE FATHER”. And since John 17:5 doesn't even have the word “promise” in it, there is no way Jesus is speaking of a promise God made to him.
You seem to post many inaccurate things about the Greek language, and I sure hope it is by accident.
Paladin, in John 17:5, Jesus asks God to glorify him now IN HIS PRESENCE with the glory he had IN HIS PRESENCE before the creation of the world. Your “para” claim has been debunked. [/quote]
Right! Let's test the flavor of what you call “debunked!”
Please explain how Mary found favor para [with] God. Was she beside God? “And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour para [with] God.” [Luke 1:30]
Please explain how John was “beside God” -There was a man sent para [from] God, whose name was John.” [John 1:6]
Please explain how it is that every man who has learned para [of] the father, is beside God. “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned para [of] the Father, cometh unto me” [John 6:45]
Please tell me how the following verses differ:
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received para [of] the Father the promise of the Holy G
host, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear2 John 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment para [from] the Father.
Both received something “para” the Father, you claim one was in God's presence, 'by his side” because of the use of “para.”
You claim it is I who have “butchered” the Greek –Quote [Mike]Here's what is meant by the use of “para” in Acts 2:33: (pará) usually adds the overtone, “from close beside” So Acts 2:33 says that Jesus had been exalted to the right hand of God – about as “close beside” God as one can get – and had recieved the promise of the Holy Spirit “from close beside” God, and then proceeded to pour that Spirit out on his disciples.
Paladin, you have again butchered the meaning of the Greek words – just like you tried to do with Psalm 138:2. And that's not cool, because a lot of the members here don't take the time to check if what you're claiming is legit. You are misleading people here, and they are believing you.
So, Mike, care to explain how John was sent para God, but was not “close beside” God?
Care to explain how Mary found favor “para” God, but was not “close beside” God?
Or perhaps explain how “para” means “close beside God” only when you need it for doctrinal purposes.
Just a note to throw into the pot. If you look up the NT word “thing or things” in Strongs Exhaustive Concordance it is almost always referring to “logos”. Everything in the NT is in referrence to “the logos” or Gods words/Jesus. When Jesus said, whatsoever “thing” you ask for, believe that you receive and you will have! And many other very interesting changes take place transposing the word “things” with “word of God” or “logos”! Much of the NT is composed of words that are interchangeable and still accurate and maybe more accurate! IMO, TK
Pierre,
A person's life and doctrine is the result of the Spirit they live by whether that Spirit is of God or of the world. If a person walks according to the Spirit of God they come from above but if they walk according to the Spirit of the world they come from below. False teachers come from below for their teachings are based on the principles of this dark world and not on the principles of God.
Young’s Luke 1:35 is worded to foretell that Jesus’ formation was holy while the NIV is worded to foretell that Jesus is holy. I felt is deserved a mention but then assumed Young’s was in error in order to address your point.
Just as I have been stating Jesus is the human son of Mary, for he comes from her in the flesh, and the spiritual Son of God, for he comes from heaven in the spirit.
He is the Son of God because he inherited the Spirit of God not because he is the physical offspring of God.
God is his Spiritual father, not his material one.
Jesus is a son of God even as this scripture describes.
Quote [u]John 1 (Young's Literal Translation)[b] 12but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name,
13who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten.
He is the Son of God because he never fallen short of the glory of God even though he was tempted as is common to “mere” humans.
Note: I am attempting to differentiate between two states of being an offspring as does John in John 1:12-13.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2011,12:41) Quote (942767 @ May 11 2011,19:01) You say: Quote But you left out the part where he was existing in the form of God BEFORE he was made as a human being. This is what I mean by your having a vivid imagination.
Where do the scriptures specifically state this?
To which part do you refer? What exact word(s) do you take issue with, Marty?mike
Hi Mike:There is one “big word” that you are adding to this scripture in Philippians and that word is “Before”. This is an assumption on your part that word in not there.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (kerwin @ May 12 2011,22:17) Pierre, A person's life and doctrine is the result of the Spirit they live by whether that Spirit is of God or of the world. If a person walks according to the Spirit of God they come from above but if they walk according to the Spirit of the world they come from below. False teachers come from below for their teachings are based on the principles of this dark world and not on the principles of God.
Young’s Luke 1:35 is worded to foretell that Jesus’ formation was holy while the NIV is worded to foretell that Jesus is holy. I felt is deserved a mention but then assumed Young’s was in error in order to address your point.
Just as I have been stating Jesus is the human son of Mary, for he comes from her in the flesh, and the spiritual Son of God, for he comes from heaven in the spirit.
He is the Son of God because he inherited the Spirit of God not because he is the physical offspring of God.
God is his Spiritual father, not his material one.
Jesus is a son of God even as this scripture describes.
Quote [u]John 1 (Young's Literal Translation)[b] 12but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name,
13who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten.
He is the Son of God because he never fallen short of the glory of God even though he was tempted as is common to “mere” humans.
Note: I am attempting to differentiate between two states of being an offspring as does John in John 1:12-13.
Kerwin! I find it ironic what you state about the Holy Spirit of God. We all received Gods Holy Spirit at Baptism. The difference is that some will fall on good ground and will flourish, and some will fall on bad ground….
Some have not been chosen to understand what Scriptures say, while others do. Some will interpret them to their liking, while some will read how they are written. But just remember that we are all Christians in spite of it all. We are not from the earth. We are bought with Jesus blood, under His Covenant. To say what you did is uncalled for….
We all fall short of the glory of God….Peace IreneQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2011,10:21) Quote (Paladin @ May 11 2011,07:00)
Jesus the son of David had established the newness of all, and was declared to be the son of God by the resurrection. That was the point at which God declaed him to be his son; The day of his resurrection.Matthew 3
16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
Was that not a declaration by God?Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
Was that not a declaration by God?Matthew 16
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
Was that not a declaration by God made directly to Peter?Yet you claim that God declared Jesus to be His Son only after the resurrection?
Quote (Paladin @ May 11 2011,07:00)
2 Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:” [Rom 1:2-4]You skipped over the last 4 words of verse three, which tell us that Jesus was an offspring of David “according to the flesh” only. Jesus tried to explain to the Pharisees that he was more than just a regular offspring of David in Matthew 22:41-46………..and he left them speechless by his teaching.
You also glossed over the two most important words of verse 4: “with power”. This is what NETNotes says about it:
Paul is not saying that Jesus was appointed the “Son of God by the resurrection” but “Son-of-God-in-power by the resurrection,” as indicated by the hyphenation. He was born in weakness in human flesh (with respect to the flesh, v. 3) and he was raised with power. This is similar to Matt 28:18 where Jesus told his disciples after the resurrection, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”I agree with them, for we know from many scriptures that Jesus was already “THE Son of God” before he was resurrected. And the scriptures show no support to your implication that, “under a new creation”, the Father/Son relationship between Jehovah and Jesus changed in any way.
“Skipped?” “glossed over?” You failed to mention I also left out Acts 2:36. Because I have already addressed all of this in previous posts. Jesus was both Lord and Christ too, but after he was resurrected, God “made him both Lord and Christ.” Don't you wonder why? This is also covered in a previous post.
Because his offices as Lord and Christ ended with his death, and he was re-anointed after his resurrecton, because of God's promiose concerning his priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.
so also, his sonship of both David and God ended with his death, and he was re-declared the son of God, because the relationship was renewed with the resurrection. “Today have I begotten thee, is a reference to his sonship to the Father, after the resurrection; he was firstborn from the dead, only begotten from all creation; which was also renewed upon the resurrection of Jesus..
Quote But most importantly, you keep avoiding Hebrews 1:2 in your assertion that only the “new age” was created through Jesus. And I keep asking you why 1:2 says “through whom He created the ages”, as in “more than one age”, but you keep ignoring my question. Perhaps you could answer it now?
You mean again? This has also been addressed before. Look back on thread page 31 post #9; 3rd and 4th sentence from the bottom.
There are two of you posting on this thread who continually request to go over and over material previously covered. I don't mind, as long as the time does not run out on me, but please quit telling the readers I have not responded.
Paladin! My dear friend, you didn't respond to my lat post either…..Is that a common practice with you?
Peace Irene
Quote (terraricca @ May 11 2011,03:00) [/quote]
and this ones;Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me(Christ the son) forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I(Christ) was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I(Christ) was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I (Christ)was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he (God)made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I(Christ) was there when he(God) set the heavens in place,
when he(God) marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he(God) established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he(God) gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he (God) marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I (Christ)was the craftsman at his side.
I (Christ)was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his(God the father) presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his(God) whole world
and delighting in mankind.Please show me anywhere in this passage, where “Wisdom becomes Jesus; where “sophia” becomes 'Xristos.”
Proverbs 8:1 Doth not [Σ ο φ ι α ν] wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. 7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. 9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. 10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: 21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
then of course we are told that God and wisdom created the heaven and earth, so there should be no more queston about
“who is “we” and “us” in Gen 1:26:
Psalm 104:24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.Psalm 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Then of course, there is the new testament references wherein we learn, Jesus was made wisdom to the church, which means he was not previously wisdom, and even though he was made wisdom to the church, he was never wisdom to the world. But wisdom of Proverbs 8 was wisdom to all creation, for it was all creation wisdom and Jehovah created heaven and earth.
Just because you find a verse that says “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God” ; does not mean Jesus was always wisdom, to everybody, for Paul also said; ” But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:”
It helps if you remember that Jesus grew in wisdom, which wisdom could never do; “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” [Luke 2:52]
Wisdom cannot increase in wisdom.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2011,11:36) Quote (Paladin @ May 10 2011,03:37) “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:” [Col 1:16] The same principle applies when Paul uses “whether” in this verse, it is a limiting parameter detailing the scope of “all things.”
Hi Paladin,The words “ALL THINGS” change the meaning of “whether”. If you told Irene, “I will share with you ALL THINGS in my possession, whether they be in my front yard or on my porch”, the back yard is not excluded – because you already said ALL THINGS. When you say “ALL THINGS” first, then “whether” only refers to certain examples included in the “ALL THINGS”. It does not exclude any of the other things in your possession, for you've already included them with the words “ALL THINGS”.[/quote]
Tell that to God who uses “whether” 171 times in 148 verses, and every time uses it as a limiting parameter to choices offered. It never gives over to “both” nor to “neither,” nor to “either,” nor to “none.” It is always used by God to limit selections to the referenced material, and limits material already under consideration. I can provide a list if needed, but you know what you always say about wordy posts.
Quote Which particular invisible rulers in heaven do you suppose were created through Jesus? Since we do not know how many thrones and dominions and principalities and powers are referenced in Paul's writing to Colosae, even if we assume one watcher per nation, or one guardian angel per person, we still will be working on unsubstantiated assumptions; so I will tell you the easy way, in a way any reader can understand, and not, this is not a reflection on you Mike, it is a simple statement of my intent.
If you take all the possible powers in heaven, and add all the possible dominions they might rule, then take all the possible principalities they might oversee, and add to that number, all the possible thrones that might be involved, add them all together, you will get a number, we can call anything we want to call it, because no one knows its true value, so I will call it “infinity,” but only for the sake of this illustration.
Then add one.
This position that is added, is the accomodation to Jesus' being raised to the second place in God's heirarchy in heaven. ALL principalities, powers, thrones, and dominions, have to move down one place, to accomodate the newly appointed positon of the son of God ruling under tha Father in heaven.
Now, that's a lot of positions to have to create, but he managed it. Unless you take the position heaven runs on automatic, which you would then be challenged to prove, or if you take th eposition the Father pre-arranged the seating arrangement of thrones, principalities, etc, again, I would have to challenge you to prove it.
If you want to challenge me to prove it, I offer “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” [II Cor 5:17]
Do you see it Mike? Name something that was made new that is not included in “all things” and is not excluded by the use of “whether they be….”
So, to answer your question, it was not a ruler, or a principality, or a power or a throne Jesus created, it was the position in which each of them serves; i.e., each position is one number less than it was before Jesus over took number two. two moved to three, which was a new position to him; 3 moved to 4, which was certailny a demotion to him, and so on.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2011,11:42) Quote (Paladin @ May 10 2011,03:46) When Jesus took a cord and made a scourge ut of it to drive the money-changers from the temple, it was not because he hated them, nor was it because they were beneath the power of his love, no, my friends, it was becasue they were desecrating his father's house by making profit in exchanging money, and he could not allow them to desectrate his father's house.
Perhaps some of us consider you and Gene to be desecrating our Father's house by making lies of His own words. Be thankful that you're only getting tongue lashings instead of whip lashings like the money changers got.
Well I guess that removes all doubt as to where your heart is.Quote (942767 @ May 11 2011,11:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2011,11:46) Quote (942767 @ May 10 2011,08:14) Irene: He was the only Begotten Son of God who was born of the virgin Mary, the firstbegotten of God, and then he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and he then was resurrected from the dead, or he was born again from the dead, making him the firstborn from the dead.
But you left out the part where he was existing in the form of God BEFORE he was made as a human being. You left out the part where he had glory beside God as the firstborn of all creation before the world was created through him and before he eventually became flesh and dwelled among us.
Hi Mike:All I can say is that you have a vivid imagination.
Love in Christ,
Marty
I can show you where Jesus is called “firstborn of creation” but you cannot show me where he was called that prior to creation.I can show you where Jesus was called “firstborn of creation after the resurrection.
You cannot show me where he is called “firstborn of creation” prior to the resurrection.
Quote (terraricca @ May 11 2011,12:16) Paladin you say;
Quote Do you see no significance in the chronological facts that God spoke of the creation by God alone in Isaiah, Malachai, and other old testament passages, then in the new testament tells us of the new creation by Jesus Christ, before telling us Jesus is the firstborn of creation? Before he tells us Jesus is the firstborn from the dead? The new creation was already an accomplished fact, when God told us of these things. Yet you feel safe in grabbing sound bytes and forcing them back to a time prior to their application in scripture because you “have a doctrine” to protect.
No wonder we cannot agree
i know that the only scriptures that were available to the first christian was Greek LXX version and the Hebrew version ,many years would passes before the letters of Paul,Peter,James,John ect would be added to it ,so the so called old testament was very much in use during the first 30 years or so ,
so you comment is useless and as no baring on anything worth to remember.
one more thing ,there is nothing what is mention in the new testament that is not in the old testament ,Pierre
You have just posted for all the world to see, a total ignorance of two testaments, and the entire word of God, and in two languages.I am impressed.
Quote (Paladin @ May 13 2011,17:00) Quote (terraricca @ May 11 2011,03:00) [/quote]
and this ones;Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me(Christ the son) forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I(Christ) was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I(Christ) was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I (Christ)was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he (God)made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I(Christ) was there when he(God) set the heavens in place,
when he(God) marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he(God) established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he(God) gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he (God) marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I (Christ)was the craftsman at his side.
I (Christ)was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his(God the father) presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his(God) whole world
and delighting in mankind.Please show me anywhere in this passage, where “Wisdom becomes Jesus; where “sophia” becomes 'Xristos.”
Proverbs 8:1 Doth not [Σ ο φ ι α ν] wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. 7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. 9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. 10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: 21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
then of course we are told that God and wisdom created the heaven and earth, so there should be no more queston about
“who is “we” and “us” in Gen 1:26:
Psalm 104:24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.Psalm 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Then of course, there is the new testament references wherein we learn, Jesus was made wisdom to the church, which means he was not previously wisdom, and even though he was made wisdom to the church, he was never wisdom to the world. But wisdom of Proverbs 8 was wisdom to all creation, for it was all creation wisdom and Jehovah created heaven and earth.
Just because you find a verse that says “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God” ; does not mean Jesus was always wisdom, to everybody, for Paul also said; ” But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:”
It helps if you remember that Jesus grew in wisdom, which wisdom could never do; “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” [Luke 2:52]
Wisdom cannot increase in wisdom.
Paladinit is very difficult for the earthly men to understand the thing from above,but there is hope if you ask God for understanding.
I believe you have come to the stage that you can not learn no more,in the word of God ,or to many preconceived ideas.
Pierre
Quote (Paladin @ May 13 2011,17:49) Quote (terraricca @ May 11 2011,12:16) Paladin you say;
Quote Do you see no significance in the chronological facts that God spoke of the creation by God alone in Isaiah, Malachai, and other old testament passages, then in the new testament tells us of the new creation by Jesus Christ, before telling us Jesus is the firstborn of creation? Before he tells us Jesus is the firstborn from the dead? The new creation was already an accomplished fact, when God told us of these things. Yet you feel safe in grabbing sound bytes and forcing them back to a time prior to their application in scripture because you “have a doctrine” to protect.
No wonder we cannot agree
i know that the only scriptures that were available to the first christian was Greek LXX version and the Hebrew version ,many years would passes before the letters of Paul,Peter,James,John ect would be added to it ,so the so called old testament was very much in use during the first 30 years or so ,
so you comment is useless and as no baring on anything worth to remember.
one more thing ,there is nothing what is mention in the new testament that is not in the old testament ,Pierre
You have just posted for all the world to see, a total ignorance of two testaments, and the entire word of God, and in two languages.I am impressed.
Paladinwhen men read the scriptures they are thought to learn for themselves about those scriptures ,
I do not read that way,this is to selfish,just takers.
Pierre
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