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Quote (terraricca @ May 11 2011,03:00) Marty Quote Hi Pierre: Does God say one thing in one scripture and something else by another. The scriptures must be consistent. And so, what does this scripture state?
I never said that Jesus is a mere man. The scriptures state that he is “The Christ, the Son of the Living God”, but the scriptures also state that he is a man, no, not just a mere man, but nevertheless a man.
And why are you accusing me of rejecting the Son of God. Jesus is my Lord.
The discussion here is whether or not he existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world, and by this scripture in Galatians which I posted, it shows that he did not.
God sent forth his Son after be was born of the flesh, not before. That is what the scripture states.
Love in Christ,
Martyand what is wrong with these scriptures ?;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servantand this ones;Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me(Christ the son) forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I(Christ) was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I(Christ) was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I (Christ)was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he (God)made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I(Christ) was there when he(God) set the heavens in place,
when he(God) marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he(God) established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he(God) gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he (God) marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I (Christ)was the craftsman at his side.
I (Christ)was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his(God the father) presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his(God) whole world
and delighting in mankind.if you can not see it ,I can not help you only God can so pray.
Pierre
Hi Pierre:Nothing is wrong with the scriptures. What is wrong is your understanding of them.
Proverbs 8 is about Wisdom and begins like this:
Quote Proverbs 8
1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
And continues talking about wisdom:
Quote 8:15By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
And it ends like this:
Quote 8:32Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
And so, here proverbs are speaking about Wisdom, and this does not say Christ. You added this by your parenthesis.
All Wisdom comes from God, and he did speak to humanity in these last days by His Only Begotten Son. And Jesus says:
Quote Matthew 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
I have already discussed the scriptures that you quoted in Colossians. They do not say that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person. They do indicated that he was foreordained.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty
Quote Hi Pierre: Nothing is wrong with the scriptures. What is wrong is your understanding of them.
Proverbs 8 is about Wisdom and begins like this:
Quote And it ends like this: Quote And so, here proverbs are speaking about Wisdom, and this does not say Christ. You added this by your parenthesis it is strange that you are not commenting on the Pr 8 verses 22 to 31 and also to Col 1;15-23
the only remarks of you are making are your opinions ,now if you can not or want not understand what it is said in those verses ,thats fine with me ,
but I do not know what to do with your opinion, religion are full of them .
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ May 09 2011,21:39) we have gone trough with your opinions ,it like this; if we say this car is color black you would say no it is in the shade and so it shows black ,if we say it is white you would say no it is in the light and shine white 
Hi Pierre:
I quoted some scriptures from Proverbs. I did not give any opinions, but you did by adding (Christ) where you thought it was appropriate. I did not quote the verses that you quoted because all of Provers 8 is about Wisdom, and I quoted the first few scriptures of Proverbs 8 to show this. Is this not what the beginning of proberbs 8 states?
I have already discussed the scriptures that you quoted relative to Colossians 1 if you would like to go back and read what I stated. None of these scriptures indicated that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. He was foreordained. And God made all things by him and for him and without him was nothing made that was made. He is God's heir, and we who are his disciples are joint heirs with him.
Here is the scriptures which state that Jesus was foreordained. Again this not my opinion, this what the scriptures state:
Quote 1 Peter 1:17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ May 11 2011,18:23) Hi Pierre: I quoted some scriptures from Proverbs. I did not give any opinions, but you did by adding (Christ) where you thought it was appropriate. I did not quote the verses that you quoted because all of Provers 8 is about Wisdom, and I quoted the first few scriptures of Proverbs 8 to show this. Is this not what the beginning of proberbs 8 states?
I have already discussed the scriptures that you quoted relative to Colossians 1 if you would like to go back and read what I stated. None of these scriptures indicated that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. He was foreordained. And God made all things by him and for him and without him was nothing made that was made. He is God's heir, and we who are his disciples are joint heirs with him.
Here is the scriptures which state that Jesus was foreordained. Again this not my opinion, this what the scriptures state:
Quote 1 Peter 1:17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
Love in Christ,
Marty
Martyyou have discussed nothing look for yourself ,you did not answer again you evade the answer on both group of scriptures ,col and prov
look for your self what you did it is only a couple quote prior to this one
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2011,18:21) Quote (terraricca @ May 09 2011,21:39) we have gone trough with your opinions ,it like this; if we say this car is color black you would say no it is in the shade and so it shows black ,if we say it is white you would say no it is in the light and shine white
Mike Quote (Paladin @ May 10 2011,03:37) “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:” [Col 1:16] The same principle applies when Paul uses “whether” in this verse, it is a limiting parameter detailing the scope of “all things.”
Hi Paladin,The words “ALL THINGS” change the meaning of “whether”. If you told Irene, “I will share with you ALL THINGS in my possession, whether they be in my front yard or on my porch”, the back yard is not excluded – because you already said ALL THINGS. When you say “ALL THINGS” first, then “whether” only refers to certain examples included in the “ALL THINGS”. It does not exclude any of the other things in your possession, for you've already included them with the words “ALL THINGS”.
But just for laughs, let's imagine your scenario does make sense. Which particular invisible rulers in heaven do you suppose were created through Jesus?
mike
Quote (Paladin @ May 10 2011,03:46) When Jesus took a cord and made a scourge ut of it to drive the money-changers from the temple, it was not because he hated them, nor was it because they were beneath the power of his love, no, my friends, it was becasue they were desecrating his father's house by making profit in exchanging money, and he could not allow them to desectrate his father's house.
Perhaps some of us consider you and Gene to be desecrating our Father's house by making lies of His own words. Be thankful that you're only getting tongue lashings instead of whip lashings like the money changers got.Quote (942767 @ May 10 2011,08:10) The discussion here is whether or not he existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world, and by this scripture in Galatians which I posted, it shows that he did not.
No it doesn't.Quote (942767 @ May 10 2011,08:14) Irene: He was the only Begotten Son of God who was born of the virgin Mary, the firstbegotten of God, and then he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and he then was resurrected from the dead, or he was born again from the dead, making him the firstborn from the dead.
But you left out the part where he was existing in the form of God BEFORE he was made as a human being. You left out the part where he had glory beside God as the firstborn of all creation before the world was created through him and before he eventually became flesh and dwelled among us.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2011,11:46) Quote (942767 @ May 10 2011,08:14) Irene: He was the only Begotten Son of God who was born of the virgin Mary, the firstbegotten of God, and then he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and he then was resurrected from the dead, or he was born again from the dead, making him the firstborn from the dead.
But you left out the part where he was existing in the form of God BEFORE he was made as a human being. You left out the part where he had glory beside God as the firstborn of all creation before the world was created through him and before he eventually became flesh and dwelled among us.
Hi Mike:All I can say is that you have a vivid imagination.
Love in Christ,
MartyThat's IS “all you can say”, because you surely can't claim that what I've written is unscriptural, can you?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2011,11:44) Quote (942767 @ May 10 2011,08:10) The discussion here is whether or not he existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world, and by this scripture in Galatians which I posted, it shows that he did not.
No it doesn't.
Hi Mike:And so, I would say, Oh yes, it does. Then there would be an argument, and so, just go ahead and teach what you want. I am tired of going around in circles with you on this subject.
If you want to teach this doctrine, it is up to you to substantiate it with scripture.
Both you and I are responsible to God for what we teach.
I know that you are going to accuse me of bailing out but go right ahead. I have nothing more to add to what I have already stated at this point. It is useless to keep going over the same material over and over again.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2011,11:54) That's IS “all you can say”, because you surely can't claim that what I've written is unscriptural, can you?
Hi Mike:I already have, but what is the use, you won't listen.
Love in Christ,
MartyThat's a cop-out Marty. I posted words straight out of the scriptures, and you joked about my “vivid imagination”. Stop joking for a minute and SHOW ME the thing I posted that is NOT the words of the scriptures.
Paladin
you say;
Quote Do you see no significance in the chronological facts that God spoke of the creation by God alone in Isaiah, Malachai, and other old testament passages, then in the new testament tells us of the new creation by Jesus Christ, before telling us Jesus is the firstborn of creation? Before he tells us Jesus is the firstborn from the dead? The new creation was already an accomplished fact, when God told us of these things. Yet you feel safe in grabbing sound bytes and forcing them back to a time prior to their application in scripture because you “have a doctrine” to protect.
No wonder we cannot agree
i know that the only scriptures that were available to the first christian was Greek LXX version and the Hebrew version ,many years would passes before the letters of Paul,Peter,James,John ect would be added to it ,so the so called old testament was very much in use during the first 30 years or so ,
so you comment is useless and as no baring on anything worth to remember.
one more thing ,there is nothing what is mention in the new testament that is not in the old testament ,Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2011,12:07) That's a cop-out Marty. I posted words straight out of the scriptures, and you joked about my “vivid imagination”. Stop joking for a minute and SHOW ME the thing I posted that is NOT the words of the scriptures.
Mike, that is so right, to just ignore Scriptures that a small Child could read and understand, yet Marty and others just ignore them….keep up the good work Mike, don't let Him gwet to you….
Peace IreneHi Irene,
It's a never ending circle because not one of these guys will continue the discussion to it's end. It's like the Phil 2:6 thread I started way back when. They had no problem coming up with alternate meanings for what “the form of God” meant, and when Jesus existed in this form; but no one was able to tell me how Jesus was made in the likeness of a human being AFTER he existed in the form of God and AFTER he emptied himself.
I've now asked this question of Paladin – maybe he can answer it.
mike
Quote (terraricca @ May 08 2011,04:47) Kerwin my dear friend you are lost in your understanding;you say that
Quote 1 John 2:19 (Young's Literal Translation) 19out of us they went forth, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but — that they might be manifested that they are not all of us.
and you mix it with ;Jn 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
and you saying;and yet you seem not to understand John 6:38, where Jesus teaches he came from God spiritually even though we know he came from his mother literally.
It seems to me you have a gender problem ;Lk 1:26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
now we see who is the father of Jesus ;sinse you see things can you tell us who is ;the holy one to be born;? before he is in Marie he is already called holy one.
Pierre
Pierre,1 John 2:19 demonstrates that an individual or individuals may either come from a place materially or by the Spirit. The false profits came from James and the servants of God materially but not by the Spirit because their Spirit was of the Antichrist and not of God.
Jesus speaks of Spiritual as opposed to the worldly (material) as follows.
John 8:23 (Young's Literal Translation)
23and he said to them, `Ye are from beneath, I am from above; ye are of this world, I am not of this world;
He also teaches us his kingdom is of the Spirit as opposed to of this world.
John 18:36 (Young's Literal Translation)
36Jesus answered, `My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence
A teaching verify by Paul.
1 Corinthians 2:12 (Young's Literal Translation)
12And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,
And John.
1 John 2 (Young's Literal Translation)
15Love not ye the world, nor the things in the world; if any one doth love the world, the love of the Father is not in him,
16because all that [is] in the world — the desire of the flesh, and the desire of the eyes, and the ostentation of the life — is not of the Father, but of the world,
17and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain — to the age.
So Jesus was teaching of the Spirit in John 6:38 and his words are for those with their eyes on his heavenly kingdom.
As for Jesus being called “holy one” before he was born, Young’s disagrees on that translation showing that experts disagree on the correct translation of that passage.
Luke 1 (Young's Literal Translation)
35And the messenger answering said to her, `The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;
Never the less I will assume that translators of the NIV are correct and point out that God foreknew Jesus just as he foreknew both Jacob and Essau before they were born Rebecca their mother was told `The greater shall serve the less;'.
Romans 9 (Young's Literal Translation)
10And not only [so], but also Rebecca, having conceived by one — Isaac our father —
11(for they being not yet born, neither having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to choice, might remain; not of works, but of Him who is calling,) it was said to her —
12`The greater shall serve the less;'
13according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate.'I am not sure what you consider my gender problem in what I wrote.
Kerwin
Quote Pierre, 1 John 2:19 demonstrates that an individual or individuals may either come from a place materially or by the Spirit. The false profits came from James and the servants of God materially but not by the Spirit because their Spirit was of the Antichrist and not of God.
Jesus speaks of Spiritual as opposed to the worldly (material) as follows.
John 8:23 (Young's Literal Translation)
23and he said to them, `Ye are from beneath, I am from above; ye are of this world, I am not of this world;
He also teaches us his kingdom is of the Spirit as opposed to of this world.
John 18:36 (Young's Literal Translation)
36Jesus answered, `My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence
A teaching verify by Paul.
1 Corinthians 2:12 (Young's Literal Translation)
12And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,
And John.
1 John 2 (Young's Literal Translation)
15Love not ye the world, nor the things in the world; if any one doth love the world, the love of the Father is not in him,
16because all that [is] in the world — the desire of the flesh, and the desire of the eyes, and the ostentation of the life — is not of the Father, but of the world,
17and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain — to the age.
So Jesus was teaching of the Spirit in John 6:38 and his words are for those with their eyes on his heavenly kingdom.
As for Jesus being called “holy one” before he was born, Young’s disagrees on that translation showing that experts disagree on the correct translation of that passage.
Luke 1 (Young's Literal Translation)
35And the messenger answering said to her, `The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;
Never the less I will assume that translators of the NIV are correct and point out that God foreknew Jesus just as he foreknew both Jacob and Essau before they were born Rebecca their mother was told `The greater shall serve the less;'.
Romans 9 (Young's Literal Translation)
10And not only [so], but also Rebecca, having conceived by one — Isaac our father —
11(for they being not yet born, neither having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to choice, might remain; not of works, but of Him who is calling,) it was said to her —
12`The greater shall serve the less;'
13according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate.'I am not sure what you consider my gender problem in what I wrote.
————–
Your Fellow Student,Kerwin
first I do not quite understand what you are saying here;
Quote The false profits came from James and the servants of God materially but not by the Spirit because their Spirit was of the Antichrist and not of God. the other one Is not to clear also ;
Quote As for Jesus being called “holy one” before he was born, Young’s disagrees on that translation showing that experts disagree on the correct translation of that passage. Luke 1 (Young's Literal Translation)
35And the messenger answering said to her, `The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;
Never the less I will assume that translators of the NIV are correct and point out that God foreknew Jesus
Quote I am not sure what you consider my gender problem in what I wrote. Christ father is God and his mother as per the flesh is Mary,now is he a mere men? did God had a son before Jesus ? and was that son Christ ?answer those questions then we will go on.
if you can not answer those questions you have not come to know neither God or the one he has send Jesus Christ.
Pierre
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