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Marty
who his the women here ?a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,13:57) Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,11:41) Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,16:57) how are you going to get around the other scripture that I quoted: “I am in the Father and the Father is in me”
Love in Christ,
Marty
I don't know Marty. Exactly what non-preexistent claim are you saying this scripture makes?mike
Hi Mike:How is he in the Father? If you can understand what he is saying by this, perhaps you will understand how he was with the Father before the foundation of the world.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Ahhh……………now I see what you're saying. Hey – knowing is half the battle, right?
Consider this Marty: John 17:5 says Jesus had glory IN THE PRESENCE of God before the creation of the world. You worded it “with”, and that's okay. But you have to know there is a big difference between the Father being “in” Jesus doing the works by means of His Holy Spirit, and the PERSON Jesus saying he had glory ALONGSIDE God before the creation of the world.
Can you see the difference in those statements? Now if Jesus had said, “Glorify me now in you with the glory I had in you before the creation of the world”, you might just have a point. But he didn't, and therefore you don't.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike:You are referring to the following scriptures which I see as prophetic:
Quote John 17:4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
He says And “NOW”, O Father thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
He said “Now” do this which indicates it was prophetic, and this is further explained by the following verses of scripture:
Quote John 17:24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. But what I indicated by what I have you was that Jesus said that “He was in the Father”, and so, if you can understand this, you will also understand how he was with the Father in the beginning. He existed in the heart of the Father prior to the foundation of the world. That is he was “foreordained” not that he pre-existed as some other creature prior to the foundation of the world.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (terraricca @ April 26 2011,05:11) Marty who his the women here ?a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Pierre
Hi Pierre:The woman referred to in these scriptures is the nation of Israel, and the virgin Mary came from the nation of Israel. The twelve stars are the twelve tribes or also the twelve Apostles.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Paladin:
I am sorry that this thread is way off topic and has taken a turn from what you intended to another thread for the discussion of the doctrine of pre-existence.
Since I am not versed in the Greek language, please do me the favor of giving me your understanding, using your very best Greek, of Philippians 2:6.
Thank you very much,
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ April 26 2011,12:44) Quote (terraricca @ April 26 2011,05:11) Marty who his the women here ?a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Pierre
Hi Pierre:The woman referred to in these scriptures is the nation of Israel, and the virgin Mary came from the nation of Israel. The twelve stars are the twelve tribes or also the twelve Apostles.
Love in Christ,
Marty
martyso would you say that Gen;3;15 is accomplished ?
Pierre
Marty! What you have done to John 17;5 is adding what you want to believe. That my friend is uncalled for. Tell me why does NOW indicate that Jesus is in the Father? not what that says….. verse 4 indicates that His work on earth was done, AND NOW, not just NOW, it indicates that at that time He wanted to have the glory back which He had with His Father before the world was. NOTHING ELSE.
BOY, OH BOY, how far are you all going to go and interpret the way you want it to say.,…..IreneQuote (terraricca @ April 26 2011,07:16) Quote (942767 @ April 26 2011,12:44) Quote (terraricca @ April 26 2011,05:11) Marty who his the women here ?a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Pierre
Hi Pierre:The woman referred to in these scriptures is the nation of Israel, and the virgin Mary came from the nation of Israel. The twelve stars are the twelve tribes or also the twelve Apostles.
Love in Christ,
Marty
martyso would you say that Gen;3;15 is accomplished ?
Pierre
Hi Pierre:I will just say that Jesus is the seed of the woman.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Baker @ April 26 2011,09:17) Marty! What you have done to John 17;5 is adding what you want to believe. That my friend is uncalled for. Tell me why does NOW indicate that Jesus is in the Father? not what that says….. verse 4 indicates that His work on earth was done, AND NOW, not just NOW, it indicates that at that time He wanted to have the glory back which He had with His Father before the world was. NOTHING ELSE.
BOY, OH BOY, how far are you all going to go and interpret the way you want it to say.,…..Irene
Hi Mrs:I believe that the following scriptures are appropriate for your comments to me:
I have given you scripture for what I believe is the truth. Can you give me one scripture which specifically states that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. If you can't, then quit trying to force to believe this doctrine. I have given you my understanding which is all that I can do.
Quote Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ April 26 2011,05:49) Hi Paladin: I am sorry that this thread is way off topic and has taken a turn from what you intended to another thread for the discussion of the doctrine of pre-existence.
Since I am not versed in the Greek language, please do me the favor of giving me your understanding, using your very best Greek, of Philippians 2:6.
Thank you very much,
Love in Christ,
Marty
Philippians 2:6 cannot be understood separate from 5, 7, & 8 because it is one long sentence, with
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the crossWatch as verse five introduces a thought using an imperative verb, which can only be obeyed in future action. That is a characteristic of all imperatives, they establish the present, because all responses to the imperative are future.
If I stick my head into a crowded room and yell “Run” there is no way the people could have already ran, nor can they be running while I am crying out the imperative command to do so.
Paul tells us to have the same mind as Christ Jesus who, being in God's form, did not consider equality with God his by right of taking it by force. Jesus was acknowledging his power, but not his right. Equality with God was not his by right.
You have enquired about the Greek of this verse; “Being” is a Greek compound word-form, from “upo” and “arxee” which separately mean to begin under, or less than. If Jesus is being compared to a man, the word would be huperupswsen instead of uparxwn. It represents the difference in the english between hyperthermia (a fever) and hypothermia (freezing).
The word translated “robbery” is the Greek word harpagmos, used throught both testaments to reference robbery, rapine, thuggery, and such like, with the exception that when it is applied to activity by God, it references a taking without notice Which is the good equivalent of the bad snatching by robbery or force.
.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:verse 6 “form” is the Greek word telling us Jesus was not God, but was a form of God. It should be evident to all concerned, you cannot be both the thing under consideration, and a form of the same thing. Being a form of God, Jesus was a man, who was born to be a king – “Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.” [John 18:37]
Jesus was a man who could have commanded angels – “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?” [Mat 26:53]
But instead of ruling in the kingdoms of men, and commanding angels, which as a form of God, he was qualified to do, he instead “…made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” [Php 2:7], when he washed the disciples feet. ” He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. 12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.” [John 13:4-15]
It was as a humble teacher among men Jesus was arrested. the soldiers did not come out to take him with an army, as though he was a leader of an army. He was in form of a servant, in fashion as a man, a commoner, not a kingly commander of angels.
“And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” [Php 2:8] With Jesus it was always about obedience to his Father's will, the purpose for which he was raised from among his Hebrew brethren; “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.” [Deut 18:18-19]
This is basically the significance of the message in Philippians two. May I hasten to point out, my friend, it is not necessary to know Greek to follow the message of the new testment, if, and that's a big “IF” you have a working knowledge of the old testament. If you understand the old testament, and both Abrahamic covenants, you will never be bothered by Jesus being equal with everlasting God, nor will he be pre-existent. The old testament covers that issue very well, and the new does not contradict it unless you begin at John's gospel for your definitions of Paul's words.
Quote (942767 @ April 26 2011,17:01) Quote (terraricca @ April 26 2011,07:16) Quote (942767 @ April 26 2011,12:44) Quote (terraricca @ April 26 2011,05:11) Marty who his the women here ?a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Pierre
Hi Pierre:The woman referred to in these scriptures is the nation of Israel, and the virgin Mary came from the nation of Israel. The twelve stars are the twelve tribes or also the twelve Apostles.
Love in Christ,
Marty
martyso would you say that Gen;3;15 is accomplished ?
Pierre
Hi Pierre:I will just say that Jesus is the seed of the woman.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty Quote (Paladin @ April 26 2011,10:16) Quote (942767 @ April 26 2011,05:49) Hi Paladin: I am sorry that this thread is way off topic and has taken a turn from what you intended to another thread for the discussion of the doctrine of pre-existence.
Since I am not versed in the Greek language, please do me the favor of giving me your understanding, using your very best Greek, of Philippians 2:6.
Thank you very much,
Love in Christ,
Marty
Philippians 2:6 cannot be understood separate from 5, 7, & 8 because it is one long sentence, with
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the crossWatch as verse five introduces a thought using an imperative verb, which can only be obeyed in future action. That is a characteristic of all imperatives, they establish the present, because all responses to the imperative are future.
If I stick my head into a crowded room and yell “Run” there is no way the people could have already ran, nor can they be running while I am crying out the imperative command to do so.
Paul tells us to have the same mind as Christ Jesus who, being in God's form, did not consider equality with God his by right of taking it by force. Jesus was acknowledging his power, but not his right. Equality with God was not his by right.
You have enquired about the Greek of this verse; “Being” is a Greek compound word-form, from “upo” and “arxee” which separately mean to begin under, or less than. If Jesus is being compared to a man, the word would be huperupswsen instead of uparxwn. It represents the difference in the english between hyperthermia (a fever) and hypothermia (freezing).
The word translated “robbery” is the Greek word harpagmos, used throught both testaments to reference robbery, rapine, thuggery, and such like, with the exception that when it is applied to activity by God, it references a taking without notice Which is the good equivalent of the bad snatching by robbery or force.
.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:verse 6 “form” is the Greek word telling us Jesus was not God, but was a form of God. It should be evident to all concerned, you cannot be both the thing under consideration, and a form of the same thing. Being a form of God, Jesus was a man, who was born to be a king – “Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.” [John 18:37]
Jesus was a man who could have commanded angels – “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?” [Mat 26:53]
But instead of ruling in the kingdoms of men, and commanding angels, which as a form of God, he was qualified to do, he instead “…made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” [Php 2:7], when he washed the disciples feet. ” He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. 12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.” [John 13:4-15]
It was as a humble teacher among men Jesus was arrested. the soldiers did not come out to take him with an army, as though he was a leader of an army. He was in form of a servant, in fashion as a man, a commoner, not a kingly commander of angels.
“And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” [Php 2:8] With Jesus it was always about obedience to his Father's will, the purpose for which he was raised from among his Hebrew brethren; “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.” [Deut 18:18-19]
This is basically the significance of the message in Philippians two. May I hasten to point out, my friend, it is not necessary to know Greek to follow the message of the new testment, if, and that's a big “IF” you have a working knowledge of the old testament. If you understand the old testament, and both Abrahamic covenants, you will never be bothered by Jesus being equal with everlasting God, nor will he be pre-existent. The old testament covers that issue very well, and the new does not contradict it unless you begin at John's gospel for your definitions of Paul's words.
Hi Paladin:Thanks for giving me your understanding of this, and the way you have presented it is the way that I have understood it, but I asked for your understanding of this because those who believe in the doctrine of Pre-existence indicate that when the scripture states that Jesus was “in the form of God” that this is speaking of his pre-existant state and that from this state, “he emptied himself” and became a man.
It helps to know Greek, but yes, I can understand the scriptures because if I have a question, I go to the “ONE” who penned them through men and ask Him what he intended by the scripture or scriptures in question, and I ask Him also to correct me if I am teaching anything that is not His Word.
But also, I can learn from my brothers and sisters in Christ. God can speak to me through any one of them.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Paladin @ April 26 2011,10:16) Quote (942767 @ April 26 2011,05:49) Hi Paladin: I am sorry that this thread is way off topic and has taken a turn from what you intended to another thread for the discussion of the doctrine of pre-existence.
Since I am not versed in the Greek language, please do me the favor of giving me your understanding, using your very best Greek, of Philippians 2:6.
Thank you very much,
Love in Christ,
Marty
Philippians 2:6 cannot be understood separate from 5, 7, & 8 because it is one long sentence, with
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the crossWatch as verse five introduces a thought using an imperative verb, which can only be obeyed in future action. That is a characteristic of all imperatives, they establish the present, because all responses to the imperative are future.
If I stick my head into a crowded room and yell “Run” there is no way the people could have already ran, nor can they be running while I am crying out the imperative command to do so.
Paul tells us to have the same mind as Christ Jesus who, being in God's form, did not consider equality with God his by right of taking it by force. Jesus was acknowledging his power, but not his right. Equality with God was not his by right.
You have enquired about the Greek of this verse; “Being” is a Greek compound word-form, from “upo” and “arxee” which separately mean to begin under, or less than. If Jesus is being compared to a man, the word would be huperupswsen instead of uparxwn. It represents the difference in the english between hyperthermia (a fever) and hypothermia (freezing).
The word translated “robbery” is the Greek word harpagmos, used throught both testaments to reference robbery, rapine, thuggery, and such like, with the exception that when it is applied to activity by God, it references a taking without notice Which is the good equivalent of the bad snatching by robbery or force.
.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:verse 6 “form” is the Greek word telling us Jesus was not God, but was a form of God. It should be evident to all concerned, you cannot be both the thing under consideration, and a form of the same thing. Being a form of God, Jesus was a man, who was born to be a king – “Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.” [John 18:37]
Jesus was a man who could have commanded angels – “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?” [Mat 26:53]
But instead of ruling in the kingdoms of men, and commanding angels, which as a form of God, he was qualified to do, he instead “…made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” [Php 2:7], when he washed the disciples feet. ” He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. 12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.” [John 13:4-15]
It was as a humble teacher among men Jesus was arrested. the soldiers did not come out to take him with an army, as though he was a leader of an army. He was in form of a servant, in fashion as a man, a commoner, not a kingly commander of angels.
“And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” [Php 2:8] With Jesus it was always about obedience to his Father's will, the purpose for which he was raised from among his Hebrew brethren; “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.” [Deut 18:18-19]
This is basically the significance of the message in Philippians two. May I hasten to point out, my friend, it is not necessary to know Greek to follow the message of the new testment, if, and that's a big “IF” you have a working knowledge of the old testament. If you understand the old testament, and both Abrahamic covenants, you will never be bothered by Jesus being equal with everlasting God, nor will he be pre-existent. The old testament covers that issue very well, and the new does not contradict it unless you begin at John's gospel for your definitions of Paul's words.
Paladin!
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:Is WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MAN. in the Greek? Because this is what is the most important part of that Scripture. if He was already a man, He would not have to be MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MAN. That is what Mike always quotes.
Peace Irene
Quote (942767 @ April 26 2011,10:09) Quote (Baker @ April 26 2011,09:17) Marty! What you have done to John 17;5 is adding what you want to believe. That my friend is uncalled for. Tell me why does NOW indicate that Jesus is in the Father? not what that says….. verse 4 indicates that His work on earth was done, AND NOW, not just NOW, it indicates that at that time He wanted to have the glory back which He had with His Father before the world was. NOTHING ELSE.
BOY, OH BOY, how far are you all going to go and interpret the way you want it to say.,…..Irene
Hi Mrs:I believe that the following scriptures are appropriate for your comments to me:
I have given you scripture for what I believe is the truth. Can you give me one scripture which specifically states that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. If you can't, then quit trying to force to believe this doctrine. I have given you my understanding which is all that I can do.
Quote Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty! I would like to go to the right tread with this, OKThe preexisting…
Irene
Quote (942767 @ April 25 2011,12:24) But what I indicated by what I have you was that Jesus said that “He was in the Father”, and so, if you can understand this, you will also understand how he was with the Father in the beginning.
Hi Marty,Your own words are doing it again. You say if I can understand how he was IN the Father, then I can understand how he was WITH the Father. But IN and WITH carry different conotations.
Jesus asked to be glorified with the glory HE had. Do you see this? This is a man saying that HE HIMSELF actually POSSESSED glory while he was IN THE PRESENCE of God before the creation of the world.
Now I'll state my case once more: I don't care how many alternate meanings you can come up with to convince people that Jesus is NOT saying what he clearly IS saying. All I want to know from any of you is why this scripture CAN'T POSSIBLY be saying the person of Jesus had glory alongside God before the world was created.
What SCRIPTURE prohibits my understanding of this verse?
AGAIN, I DON'T ASK FOR ALTERNATE THINGS IT COULD MEAN, BUT FOR A SCRIPTURAL REASON WHY IT CAN'T MEAN WHAT IRENE, PIERRE AND I UNDERSTAND IT TO MEAN.
peace to you Marty,
mikeQuote (Baker @ April 25 2011,16:17) AND NOW, not just NOW, it indicates that at that time He wanted to have the glory back which He had with His Father before the world was.
Good point – and I agree, Irene.Just because Jesus is saying, “I'm now ready, Father” doesn't mean he expected at that exact instant to be alongside his Father in heaven. After all, Jesus knew there was still at least one more thing he had to suffer through before being reunited with his Father in heaven.
So “NOW” isn't a “prophecy”, but a way of Jesus saying, “Hey Dad, I did what I was suppose to do………….let's get this show on the road already!”
mike
Quote (942767 @ April 25 2011,17:43) But also, I can learn from my brothers and sisters in Christ. God can speak to me through any one of them. Love in Christ,
Marty
Does that include Irene, Pierre and Mike? Or are you only able to learn from brothers and sisters who agree with your doctrine?Quote (Baker @ April 25 2011,18:11) Is WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MAN. in the Greek? Because this is what is the most important part of that Scripture. if He was already a man, He would not have to be MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MAN. That is what Mike always quotes.
Hey Irene,This is a good one for you to test your Greek learning. The word “man” is the Greek word “anthropos” and means “human being”.
So the scripture REALLY says that Jesus was made in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING. Now how much sense does that make if he already WAS a HUMAN BEING?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,11:39) Quote (Baker @ April 25 2011,16:17) AND NOW, not just NOW, it indicates that at that time He wanted to have the glory back which He had with His Father before the world was.
Good point – and I agree, Irene.Just because Jesus is saying, “I'm now ready, Father” doesn't mean he expected at that exact instant to be alongside his Father in heaven. After all, Jesus knew there was still at least one more thing he had to suffer through before being reunited with his Father in heaven.
So “NOW” isn't a “prophecy”, but a way of Jesus saying, “Hey Dad, I did what I was suppose to do………….let's get this show on the road already!”
mike
Yes, Mike I agree with you. I was looking in the preexisting Tread, and seen the post t8 made with all those Scriptures. however it is in the first part of that tread. I tried to paste and copy it, but I am not so swift with something like that. I also can;t bring that tread up since it's closed. Do you know how to do that? I would really like to bring that up….
Peace IreneQuote (Paladin @ April 25 2011,07:10) “which is in heaven”
is not in the manuscripts.If it was in the manuscripts, it still would not apply, because it is not talking about Jesus before or during his lifetime, but after his ascension, told by John, in 96 a.d., by which time he certainly is in heaven.
Hi Paladin,It is in quite a few mss. In others, it says “WAS in heaven”. Still others have “came FROM heaven”.
And there are even many scholars who think this verse is the narrative of John and not Jesus speaking directly to Nicodemus.
And translating the historical present into an English past is absolutely possible, and also fits much better with Jesus' previous words.
But let's not make this discussion about the ambiguous last phrase. Let's stick with the words before that phrase, like Irene suggested.
I await your direct response to my direct questions, Paladin.
peace,
mikeQuote (Baker @ April 25 2011,18:52) I was looking in the preexisting Tread, and seen the post t8 made with all those Scriptures. however it is in the first part of that tread. I tried to paste and copy it, but I am not so swift with something like that. I also can;t bring that tread up since it's closed. Do you know how to do that? I would really like to bring that up….
Peace Irene
Sure. Tell me which page, which post on that page, and where you want it copied to.mike
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