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Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2011,16:56) Irene, I am going by the context of John 6:62-63. In verse 63 Jesus specifically states “the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything”. It is the Spirit of Christ that Jesus is speaking of and not the flesh because that is what is important. Jesus knows that he is nothing without the Spirit of God and he assumes we also know that.
The Spirit is life and Jesus’ spoken/written words teach us how to receive and live by the Spirit and thus give us life.
Scripture states Jesus inherited his position and that he did when he received the Spirit of God he then became the Son of God. We know he received the Holy Spirit before he had a choice to sin as he lived by it. This is proven by the fact he did not sin despite being tempted as we are.
As for John 17:5, Jesus is praying about the glory he will in the future receive a glory that existed with God and was reserved for him in the beginning.
So what glory, testified in scripture, fits those parameters?
In verse 1 Jesus prays `Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee,..’
In verse 4 he states “I did glorify Thee on the earth, the work I did finish that Thou hast given me, that I may do [it].”
It looks to me as he is speaking of the same glory in verse 15 that he is speaking of in verse 1.
To correctly understand this scripture you must understand the glory that Jesus is speaking of and like in John 6:62-63 it is spiritually discerned.
Scripture References:
Quote John 6:62-63(Young’s Literal Translation) 62if then ye may behold the Son of Man going up where he was before?
63the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
John 17:1-5(Young’s Literal Translation)
1These things spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to the heaven, and said — `Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee,
2according as Thou didst give to him authority over all flesh, that — all that Thou hast given to him — he may give to them life age-during;
3and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send — Jesus Christ;
4I did glorify Thee on the earth, the work I did finish that Thou hast given me, that I may do [it].
5`And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;
Kerwin! You left very confidentially out what the end of vers62 says,
First of all Jesus is Son of God and Son of man. The Son of man said 'IF YOU SEE THE SON OF MAN ACCENT WHERE HE WAS BEFORE…That is why I gave you John 17:5 to compare that He was with His Father before the world was.
Co. 1:15, Jon1:2 tells us God through Jesus created all. HE WAS THE LITERAL SON OF GOD, BEFORE HE BECAME THE SON OF MAN.
Of course flesh profits you nothing…. But that is not what we are talking about…..
Did Jesus say that He came from Heaven, to do His Fathers will? Was He send? And where was He send from?
IreneYou, Paladin, Wispring, Gene all interpret the way you want the Scripture to say and don't read it the way it is written….
Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2011,20:58) Paladin, Your wrote to Mike:
Quote God promised many things before he began creation. When he spoke them into prophecy, they became “true” without being “truth.” They were true because God spoke it; they remained “without being true, because the prophecies were not fulfilled yet.
Since what you wrote is true then it follows that it is also true that since God promised those that hunger and thirst for righteousness that they will be filled with righteousness like God’s, Matthew 5:6 that they are credited with already obtaining it even though they are not yet mature in Christ.
In addition, since God is faithful and does what he promises they will obtain that righteousness by receiving and living by the Spirit through faith; and thus not fulfill the desires of the impure human nature, Galatians 5:16.
Thus it is even as Jesus taught, the flesh counts for nothing but Spirit gives life, John 6:63.
Very Good Kerwin;But it must be remembered by the humble, making a claim to righteousness is not equivalent to being righteous. The non-humble will just take this as a slander.
Have you heard about the victory march of ancient
Rome? Emperors would go into battle, and take enemy kings captive, leading them through the streets of Rome in a victory parade? They called it a “triumph.” The enemy king was led in chains locked to the back of the victorious emperor's chariot.Christ had his “triumph” victory parade in heaven. It must have been quite a specyacle.
“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he (Jesus) made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them (principalities and powers) in it (the cross).” [Col 2:10-15]
Jesus was killed, and satan thoguht to claim the victory; but it required Jesus' death on that cross, giving us the victory instead. So it was Jesus who had the “triumph” and it was WE who joined with him in that triumph “victory parade” over Satan and death.
God gives us that same promise of victory in christ,
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Cor 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
What marvellous things we already own because God has spoken it into prophecy, so shall it be and so it is ours.
Paladin! Is this Scripture to be instead of Col. 1:15, and those who believe in them, are not humble? Is that what you are implying?
Have you heard about the victory march of ancient
Rome? Emperors would go into battle, and take enemy kings captive, leading them through the streets of Rome in a victory parade? They called it a “triumph.” The enemy king was led in chains locked to the back of the victorious emperor's chariot.Christ had his “triumph” victory parade in heaven. It must have been quite a specyacle.
“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he (Jesus) made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them (principalities and powers) in it (the cross).” [Col 2:10-15]
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
These Scriptures are not blotted out. But you want them to be and only go to Scriptures that say something else…..
Are you now also put me on your bobo list…..Show us the post where Mike was nasty to you……You know we are to
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.Irene
Quote (Baker @ April 19 2011,23:25) Paladin! Is this Scripture to be instead of Col. 1:15, and those who believe in them, are not humble? Is that what you are implying? Your first clue is “read what I actually said.”
Quote These Scriptures are not blotted out. Please indicate the post in which I said any such thing.
Quote But you want them to be and only go to Scriptures that say something else….. So nowyou are a mind reader? You should be more careful whose mind you read.
Quote Are you now also put me on your bobo list….. Show me the post where I make a bobo list.
Quote Show us the post where Mike was nasty to you…… The only post that says Mike was nasty to me is yours. Otherwise, show me where I said such nonsense.
You know we are to 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Irene
So, start “proving all things” in your most recent post. This should be good.
Quote (Paladin @ April 20 2011,09:57) Quote (Baker @ April 19 2011,23:25) Paladin! Is this Scripture to be instead of Col. 1:15, and those who believe in them, are not humble? Is that what you are implying? Your first clue is “read what I actually said.”
Quote These Scriptures are not blotted out. Please indicate the post in which I said any such thing.
Quote But you want them to be and only go to Scriptures that say something else….. So nowyou are a mind reader? You should be more careful whose mind you read.
Quote Are you now also put me on your bobo list….. Show me the post where I make a bobo list.
Quote Show us the post where Mike was nasty to you…… The only post that says Mike was nasty to me is yours. Otherwise, show me where I said such nonsense.
You know we are to 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Irene
So, start “proving all things” in your most recent post. This should be good.
Paladin! I am not about looking all over the place where you said that John 1:14 is not in the original transcript.
When you said how good kerwins post was, I wanted to say to you too, how conviviality verse 62 was left out… Not seeing what verse 62 says
Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? .We were all discussing if Jesus preexisted, not verse 63 which BTW is a fine Scripture……but no prove what we are debating….
And I would like to see the post were Mike was not nice to you….that's all……Peace and Love Irene
PS Look at your ending now, compared to your ending in previous post's to me…..yet I still say…Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Paladin @ April 19 2011,01:08) I would recommend you ask a mystic or a scholar.
Maybe then I'd at least get an answer to my questions instead of excuses why someone WON'T answer them.
Bye Paladin, you are waste of my time.
mike
Hi Kerwin,
The Lamb wasn't slain before the founding of the earth and there is no scripture that says it was. I tried to use a commonly mistranslated verse from Rev 13 to make my point………….and it backfired on me!
That's what I get for “cheating”. 
Consider this verse:
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.Now we don't only have Jesus saying “I” came down from heaven, but we also have him saying the Son of Man came from heaven.
But here's my one question for you:
Kerwin, why do you think Jesus used the phrase “the son of man” to refer to himself?
mike
Irene,
According to scripture those who believe will become a new creation created like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Quote Ephesians 4 21if so be ye did hear him, and in him were taught, as truth is in Jesus;
22ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit,
23and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.Satisfying this longing of God’s people is what Jesus perceives as a priority and is the purpose of all his teachings. Those that long after righteousness are those that are spiritually discerning. That is why Jesus spoke of the Spirit of Christ that he inherited as if it were himself because as he teaches “he does nothing of himself for he does as the Father does. You should know from scripture that he does as the God does because he lives by the Spirit of Christ.
Quote John 5 19Jesus therefore responded and said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything of himself, if he may not see the Father doing anything; for whatever things He may do, these also the Son in like manner doth;
This is basically the same as stating:
Quote John 6:63 63the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
You should also realize that the Spirit of Christ being God’s Spirit is a The Image of God and the Reflection of God’s glory. The Spirit knows God and makes him known to those God chooses to be known by.
Jesus is spiritually The Son of God because he inherited the Spirit of God. That is to say he came in possession of the Holy Spirit.
Quote Hebrews 1 1In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,
2in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
…
4having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they.
And
Quote Matthew 28 18And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;
When he directly inherited the Spirit of Christ he also inherited the authority the Spirit of God had before creation was. That inheritance was reserved for Jesus by God who knows all and so foreknew that Jesus would be the Anointed.
Quote 1 Peter 1 19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted — Christ's —
20foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
Scripture also states:
Quote Revelations 13 8And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
Did that last scripture mean Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world or that God foreknew that Jesus would be slain?
Do you believe that Jesus was a human being before he was conceived in the womb of Mary? That is what the clause “son of man” means. Jesus was foreknown by God to be a human being and this fact was testified by the Prophets as they were carried along by the Spirit of Christ just as scripture attests.
Jesus is a son of man because he is human but the Son of God because of the Spirit of holiness. The same Spirit makes him the archetype and prototype of the new human being created like God in true holiness and righteousness. It is by the same Spirit that God is making those that believe children of God through faith in Jesus the Anointed.
Please consider this scripture from the King James Version of Scripture.
Quote 1 John 2:18-19 18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.John is clearly stating that false teachers have come from “headquarters” in the flesh but not in the spirit. In the same way Jesus speaks about his spirit and not about his flesh.
Note 1: All Scriptures but the one indicated otherwise are from Young’s Literal Translation of Scripture.
Note 2: Edited in order to rearrange post in a way I felt the flow would be smoother and thus more understandable.
Paladin and Mike,
It is know that the Jews of Jesus' times often spoke in mysticisms. The Hebrew language is based on mysticisms which is why the word spirit can mean wind as well as other things. Jesus spoke mystically when he chose to use his flesh and blood to symbolise other things.
He spoke in such riddles because he knew the truth is spiritually discerned. I know that because he said so. Parables are mystical educational stories.
Kerwin
Quote Jesus is spiritually The Son of God because he inherited the Spirit of God. That is to say he came in possession of the Holy Spirit receiving is not the same as possessing is it ?
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2011,17:19) Paladin and Mike, It is know that the Jews of Jesus' times often spoke in mysticisms. The Hebrew language is based on mysticisms which is why the word spirit can mean wind as well as other things. Jesus spoke mystically when he chose to use his flesh and blood to symbolise other things.
He spoke in such riddles because he knew the truth is spiritually discerned. I know that because he said so. Parables are mystical educational stories.
I try to stay within the purvue of scripture, rather than that of extrascriptural definition.The only place I know of that tells me Jews spoke in mystical language, is commentaries, which I do not use except to demonstrate the use of scholars testimony against their own testimony.
I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I am not knowledgeable in that issue because I try to limit my understanding to the bible, not books about the bible.
And I am not syaing reading books about the bible are wrong, I am simply saying it is not my method for study.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2011,11:51) Quote (Paladin @ April 19 2011,01:08) I would recommend you ask a mystic or a scholar.
Maybe then I'd at least get an answer to my questions instead of excuses why someone WON'T answer them.Bye Paladin, you are waste of my time.
mike
Bye Mike!Mike Boll,
I have to say that according to the literal rendition of Revelations 13:8 it does literally state “the lamb slain from the foundation of the world”. It is my belief that both you and I agree that interpretation is in error as it is not meant literally but rather is speaking of God’s plan for humankind. That plan was put into action from the moment God planned the creation of mankind. That plan included the prophecy of the conception, life, self-sacrifice and ascension of Jesus which is why God called the creation of mankind very good.
Quote Revelations 13 8And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
Peter tells us the same in his first letter.
Quote 1 Peter 1 19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted — Christ's —
20foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
He also states the prophecy came to be in these last days. That is why Marty could very well be correct in his interpretation of John 1 as God’s Word of the Prophecy of Jesus was with God before the foundation of the World. I am not sure how God’s word of Prophecy can be an elohim though except in the same way Paul states he is in his words. Maybe Marty has another answer.
As for John 3:13 I added a little context and as you can see Jesus stated “What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive;” and he also state that Holy Spirit will reveal all things.
Quote John 3 11`Verily, verily, I say to thee — What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive;
12if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe?
13and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down — the Son of Man who is in the heaven.Jesus knows because the Spirit of Christ reveals it to him and the Spirit of God knows God as scripture states.
1 Corinthians 2:11 (Young's Literal Translation)
11for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.
Compare to:Quote John 1 18God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father — he did declare.
Also consider this scripture:
1 John 2:18-19 (Young's Literal Translation)
18Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many — whence we know that it is the last hour;
19out of us they went forth, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but — that they might be manifested that they are not all of us.You can see that even though the false teacher came from headquarters in the flesh they did not come from “headquarters” in the Spirit because their spirit was not the Spirit of Christ. In a like manner Jesus is speaking in both John 3:13 and John 6:62.
As to the answer to your question, Jesus is the Son of Man because he is the archetype and prototype of the new created man even as scripture instructs us.
Quote Romans 5 14but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.
…
18So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life; 19for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.Quote 2 Corinthians 5 17so that if any one [is] in Christ — [he is] a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
18And the all things [are] of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,
19how that God was in Christ — a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,Quote Ephesians 4 21if so be ye did hear him, and in him were taught, as truth is in Jesus;
22ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit,
23and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.Note: All Scriptures from Young's Literal Translation.
Quote (Paladin @ April 20 2011,15:33) Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2011,17:19) Paladin and Mike, It is know that the Jews of Jesus' times often spoke in mysticisms. The Hebrew language is based on mysticisms which is why the word spirit can mean wind as well as other things. Jesus spoke mystically when he chose to use his flesh and blood to symbolise other things.
He spoke in such riddles because he knew the truth is spiritually discerned. I know that because he said so. Parables are mystical educational stories.
I try to stay within the purvue of scripture, rather than that of extrascriptural definition.The only place I know of that tells me Jews spoke in mystical language, is commentaries, which I do not use except to demonstrate the use of scholars testimony against their own testimony.
I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I am not knowledgeable in that issue because I try to limit my understanding to the bible, not books about the bible.
And I am not syaing reading books about the bible are wrong, I am simply saying it is not my method for study.
Paladin,When scripture tells us Jesus was not speaking clearly they meant he was speaking in riddles or mysticisms.
I will try to look up the scriptures that address it when I have an opotunity, God willing.
Quote (terraricca @ April 20 2011,13:31) Kerwin Quote Jesus is spiritually The Son of God because he inherited the Spirit of God. That is to say he came in possession of the Holy Spirit receiving is not the same as possessing is it ?
Pierre
You are correct as according to Merriam-Webster online dictionary receive means “to come into possesion”.Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2011,20:49) Quote (Paladin @ April 20 2011,15:33) Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2011,17:19) Paladin and Mike, It is know that the Jews of Jesus' times often spoke in mysticisms. The Hebrew language is based on mysticisms which is why the word spirit can mean wind as well as other things. Jesus spoke mystically when he chose to use his flesh and blood to symbolise other things.
He spoke in such riddles because he knew the truth is spiritually discerned. I know that because he said so. Parables are mystical educational stories.
I try to stay within the purvue of scripture, rather than that of extrascriptural definition.The only place I know of that tells me Jews spoke in mystical language, is commentaries, which I do not use except to demonstrate the use of scholars testimony against their own testimony.
I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I am not knowledgeable in that issue because I try to limit my understanding to the bible, not books about the bible.
And I am not syaing reading books about the bible are wrong, I am simply saying it is not my method for study.
Paladin,When scripture tells us Jesus was not speaking clearly they meant he was speaking in riddles or mysticisms.
I will try to look up the scriptures that address it when I have an opotunity, God willing.
“Parable” means “along side of” – like telling a story close the actual issues, but just enough obscured to hide the reality.The purpose was to keep the Jews in the dark, while telling a story close enough that with a litle explanation, everything became clear, like when he explained the parables to his disciples and they then understood the story.
.
Paladin,
I am not sure how you understand the word mysticism which according to the definition from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary I am using means:
Quote the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight) To reword it and change its tense to the correct one I am stating that Jesus used words to conceal the direct knowledge of the truth of God from those that are not guided by a revelation from God.
Parables are one way of doing that as you attest but the purpose is not to keep the Jew in the dark as many Jews became believers. The purpose is instead to keep those who do not want to come out of the dark ignorant because. They remain ignorant because they do not want to come out of dark because their deeds are evil just as taught in John 3.
The term mystic has been much and falsely maligned to the point that even some mystics avoid using it. Never the less myticism has its uses.
Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2011,21:35) Paladin, I am not sure how you understand the word mysticism which according to the definition from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary I am using means:
Quote the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight) To reword it and change its tense to the correct one I am stating that Jesus used words to conceal the direct knowledge of the truth of God from those that are not guided by a revelation from God.
Parables are one way of doing that as you attest but the purpose is not to keep the Jew in the dark as many Jews became believers. The purpose is instead to keep those who do not want to come out of the dark ignorant because. They remain ignorant because they do not want to come out of dark because their deeds are evil just as taught in John 3.
The term mystic has been much and falsely maligned to the point that even some mystics avoid using it. Never the less myticism has its uses.
I have no argument with that Kerwin. I just do not want to have anything to do wiith responding when someone asks me for a “mystic” response, specifically because “mystic” means very different things to different people, and I will not add to the confusion by giving what I think is an answer only to have some with a different understanding of what “mystic” means, to think I have agreed with his different view.I am not saying it is wrong, only that I do not do it, for the reason given.
To any who are interested.
The problem some of you are having is you fail to understand the proper use of threads.
I posted an OP regarding the “incarnation” dealing with the doctrine, and the reality in my opinion.
Some on the board instead of responding to the OP, immediately saw it as a challenge to their own pet doctrine, and began to respond with a view to changing my mind to agree with their doctrine, having nothing to do with the point of the OP.
The only issue before this board should be implementation of the “incarnation” as factual or doctrinal, and when it became applicable.
I claim the incarnation of Jesus became factual at the exact point God told the serpent that the seed of the woman would crush the head of the seed of the serpent. It became very real to the serpent.
I claim the incarnation of Jesus became factual when God said “A father of many nations have I made thee..” At that precise point, the incarnation became a point of joy to Abraham.
I claim that every time God reiterated his promise of Messiah through the medium of prophecy, the incarnation of Jesus became factual again.
I claim that the historical moment Jesus began to exist, is that moment in which the Holy Spirit begat the babe in the womb of the Virgin, Mary. [Mat 1:20][John 3:6]
I claim that the histoprical moment Jesus began to exist, is that moment in which God chose to form the babe as he “was made of a woman” [Gal 4:4]
If you can stick to the issue of the OP, it will not be a waste of time on this thread.
If you have other issues you want to discuss, several of you have correctly pointed out, many of those issues are already on other threads, and a simple visit to the other threads should accomodate your hunger to express your belief about those issues.
If you simply want to vent on this board about issues already covered on other boards, you are in fact, wasting everybodies time.
There is nothing wrong with expanding the Op to include issues that contribute to clearing up points of confusion as to the issues of the OP, but to usurp the thread to insist your own favorite issues be discussed, will cause a major breakdown in communication.
Can we please accomodate each other's differences without causing accusation and bad feelings? The only real issue should be “Is it addressing the issues raised in the OP? There should never be an issue between brethren, “why did you hurt my feelings?” Your feelings are not the issue. the OP is.
Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2011,20:49) Quote (Paladin @ April 20 2011,15:33) Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2011,17:19) Paladin and Mike, It is know that the Jews of Jesus' times often spoke in mysticisms. The Hebrew language is based on mysticisms which is why the word spirit can mean wind as well as other things. Jesus spoke mystically when he chose to use his flesh and blood to symbolise other things.
He spoke in such riddles because he knew the truth is spiritually discerned. I know that because he said so. Parables are mystical educational stories.
I try to stay within the purvue of scripture, rather than that of extrascriptural definition.The only place I know of that tells me Jews spoke in mystical language, is commentaries, which I do not use except to demonstrate the use of scholars testimony against their own testimony.
I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I am not knowledgeable in that issue because I try to limit my understanding to the bible, not books about the bible.
And I am not syaing reading books about the bible are wrong, I am simply saying it is not my method for study.
Paladin,When scripture tells us Jesus was not speaking clearly they meant he was speaking in riddles or mysticisms.
I will try to look up the scriptures that address it when I have an opotunity, God willing.
Eze 20:49 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?[parabolee = nom fem s noun]Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;[parabolais = dat fem pl noun]
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? [parabolais = dat fem pl noun]
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. [parabolais = dat fem pl noun]
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in (1)parables; and without (2)a parable spake he not unto them: (1)[parabolais = dat fem pl noun](2)[parabolees = gen fem s noun]
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. [parabolais = dat fem pl noun]
Mat 13:53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.[parabolas = acc fem pl noun]
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.[parabolas = acc fem pl noun]
Mat 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, [parabolais = dat fem pl noun]
Mark 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? [parabolais = dat fem pl noun]
Mark 4:2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,[parabolais = dat fem pl noun]
Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:[parabolais = dat fem pl noun]
Mark 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this (1)parable? and how then will ye know all (2)parables? (1)[paraboleen = acc fem s noun] (2)[parabolas = acc fem pl noun]
Mark 4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.[parabolais = dat fem pl noun]
Mark 12:1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.[parabolais = dat fem pl noun]
Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.[parabolais = dat fem pl noun]
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