Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2011,09:10)

Paladin,

I am having some trouble understanding what your conclusion is. From what I understand the common Greek word “gennaō”, which you label gennaw, means sired. So flesh is sired by flesh and spirit is sired by spirit. So just as Jesus taught Nicodemus that a human being must be sired of both Spirit and water to enter the kingdom of heaven the Spirit of Jesus himself was sired in the womb of Mary by the Spirit of God.

According to my understanding of Matthew 1:20, the body and flesh of Jesus miraculously came to be in the womb of Mary by the Spirit of God, as the Spirit of Christ is God’s creative force.

Never the less I agree with the spirit of your understanding for the reason that Jesus never sinned even though tempted as is common to man, proving he was always sired of the spirit of righteousness and holiness.

According to Strong’s “gennaō” translated “sired”, “genos” translated “kindred” and “ginomai”, the later which Mike prefers the translation “was made”, are all related words.

This is definitely food for thought. I plan on getting back to this later, God willing.

ginomai is translated “were made” when talking about Pilate and Herod were made friends” over in Luke.

Sometimes people forget the difference between “a word means…” and “a word is translated…”

It is not always the same.

April 18, 2011 at 9:39 am#243633

Participant

Quote (942767 @ April 18 2011,09:47)

Quote (942767 @ April 18 2011,06:27)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,05:30)

And here come all the “well, it could have meant” guesses from the non-preexisters who must go out of their way to find odd, alternate meanings to clearly worded scriptures.

Let me ask you this, Marty:

COULD IT ALSO HAVE MEANT that Jesus came down from heaven, and foretold about the time when his disciples would actually EYEWITNESS him ascending back to where he was before, as they eventually did?

I would really like to know why it COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE MEANT THAT, since THAT is what is CLEARLY taught.

mike

No, it could have not possibly meant that because of the scriptures that I have already given you regarding Jesus being conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary.

The problem is that you are not reading what is being said, but only reacting on your pre-conceived notion that Jesus pre-existed.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Mike:

Jesus said:

Quote

Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

The bread of life were the Words that God was speaking to humanity through him. It was the Holy Spirit that was indwelling him and speaking to humanity through him.

Quote

Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus existed in the heart of the Father prior to the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person. God forknew that at a specific point in time he would conceive a Son in through whom He would reconcile the world unto Himself.

Jesus says “what if you see the Son of man ascend where he was before”? He was not the Son of man until he was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary and born into this world as a living soul. His spirit then was formed through obedience to the Word of God. It is this spirit that is the spirit of the Son.

And so, yes, he came down from heaven. He was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin mary, and his spirit was formed by the Word of God that he obeyed without sin even unto death on the cross. And of course the Word of God came from heaven. It was the Holy Ghost speaking to humanity through his Only Begotten Son and His Christ.

Forget about Philippians 2:6 referring in some way to Jesus prior to his birth into this world. The Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility and giving the life of Jesus as an example of humility. He existed in the form of God in his earthly ministry as God's Christ, not in heaven prior to his birth.

Humility:

Quote

John 13:12So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

14If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

15For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

16Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Very Good Marty;

“word” in 6:63 of John is “reema” so obedience requires the knowledge of what is written;

April 18, 2011 at 9:45 am#243634

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,09:59)

Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,13:38)

That's o.k. Mike, none of your references say anything about “eye witness” either, because it is your standard that you have turned into a requirement, not scriptures.

Hi Paladin,

Your post is the act of desparation. Acts 1:9 has the words “taken up before our very eyes”, which refers to people actually EYE-WITNESSING the ascension of Jesus. The actual Greek says “blepo autos” which means “themselves saw by use of the eye”.

What you've done is try to find any mention of “see” and “witness” in the same sentence, as if those two words in the same sentence would equate to someone EYE-WITNESSING an event.

What I wanted to know is if anyone was ever said to have actually seen Jesus ascend from sheol back to the earth. Do you have any scriptures that show this happened? YES or NO?

I also await responses to these two points:

1. So, I'm still looking for some scriptural validation to support your “out of the blue” assumption that, in the middle of a teaching about how he came down from heaven, Jesus followed up this teaching by speaking of “ascending to where he was before”, meaning “from sheol back to the earth”.

2. So, I await an answer on why you think the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking were clever enough to know he was speaking of COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN, but you apparently are not.

peace,
mike

I thought you were looking for eyewitness testimony. I did not know, because you did not say, “blepo autos” was the only thing that wouls satisfy your newly made standard for eyewitnesses. That is your problem, Mike.

As for you characterization of my post being “an act of desperation” –

Bye Bye Mike!!!

April 18, 2011 at 10:43 am#243635

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ April 18 2011,15:07)

Quote (Paladin @ April 18 2011,18:49)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,10:59)

Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,17:12)

Mike;

The reason the Jews could not understand Jesus' words is not because of any problem with clarity,

Start your post again with the correct premise, please.

The Jews DID understand the words Jesus spoke. They CLEARLY understood that this “regular guy” was for some reason claiming he came down from heaven.

They just didn't know why he would say such a thing.

mike

No. You can dictate the start of your [posts, Mike, I will not be so manipulated.

Paladin

there was no manipulation, just questions and answers and at the end you would not give a answer;

what I hate the most is the devil asumption “He said to the woman, “Did God really say,”? this is putting everything under question ,NO ?

Pierre

Terrarica my friend, I consider “Start your post again with the correct premise, please.” to be an attempt to manipulate how I begin my post.

April 18, 2011 at 11:16 am#243636

Wispring

Participant

Hi Paladin,
I am teaching myself the language of Greek using this web-site:
Koine Greek
So far I have learned the alphabet and a few words. Interestingly enough the texts this web-site uses to start with is John 1:1-5. So yes, I am also learning to think Greek much like I learned to think German when I took German language classes in middle school.
I use the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer which has the KJV and uses Scrivners Textus Recepticus. It has Strong's integrated.
It is free and can be downloaded from http://www.scripture4all.com. You can also download and install a Young's Literal Translation add-on module for it. I think it's great and recommend it. This going to all these websites to get the meanings of greek words is slow and cumbersome compared to this program.
I have recently discovered this web-site that has the codex sainiticus on it which is also great. Just to re-iterate; I did not join this web-site with any pre-conceived ideas about trinity or pre-existance. When I read the bible with my mind open to Jesus Christ and God it was not givin to me from God to have these ideas. I am perfectly well understanding what you are explaining in this thread with my own competence in the English language. I am desiring to learn Greek for my own education and to be able to follow these conversations that utilize Greek seeking clarity with a higher degree of comprehension and alacrity. I would like to invite everyone to check-out the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer to see for themselves why I am so impressed with it. Hey, it's free. Keep up the good work friend.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

April 18, 2011 at 12:02 pm#243639

karmarie

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,16:22)

I think I broke his spirit.

This site is really good for that. (dont answer)

April 18, 2011 at 10:52 pm#243679

Participant

Quote (karmarie @ April 18 2011,23:02)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,16:22)

I think I broke his spirit.

This site is really good for that. (dont answer)

This site is to prove all Scriptures to in line with ones believe…..Not just commands. Mike thought that by giving Paladin the right Scriptures He would brake His believe against what He thinks. Obvious Mike was wrong, Paladin still believes Jesus did not preexist His Birth on Earth….
Peace and Love Irene

April 18, 2011 at 10:55 pm#243681

Participant

Quote (Wispring @ April 18 2011,22:16)

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

Good luck, it is not an easy language, is it?

Peace and Love Irene

April 18, 2011 at 11:04 pm#243682

Participant

Very Good Marty;

“word” in 6:63 of John is “reema” so obedience requires the knowledge of what is written;

wrote:

and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

Peace and love Irene

April 19, 2011 at 1:46 am#243706

Wispring

Participant

Hi Irene,

Quote

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

The boldened word in John 6:63 quoted above is reema/rhema. In my ISA bible program it is rendered remata(nomitive plural form noun)

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

April 19, 2011 at 3:07 am#243713

Participant

Quote (Wispring @ April 19 2011,12:46)

Hi Irene,

Quote

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

The boldened word in John 6:63 quoted above is reema/rhema. In my ISA bible program it is rendered remata(nomitive plural form noun)

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

Ok but what does that have to do with verse 62, which I think is more important to prove that Jesus preexisted.

Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Peace and Love Irene

April 19, 2011 at 4:12 am#243723

Participant

Quote (Baker @ April 19 2011,09:07)

Quote (Wispring @ April 19 2011,12:46)

Hi Irene,

Quote

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

The boldened word in John 6:63 quoted above is reema/rhema. In my ISA bible program it is rendered remata(nomitive plural form noun)

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

Ok but what does that have to do with verse 62, which I think is more important to prove that Jesus preexisted.

Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Peace and Love Irene

Irene,

Son of man means decendent of human kind.

So was the Decendent of Human kind in heaven or was Jesus speaking in another context.

So not to confuse you in finding the other context I mean lets replace man with flesh as flesh means man in some contexts.

April 19, 2011 at 4:12 am#243724

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Paladin @ April 18 2011,03:45)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,09:59)

Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,13:38)

That's o.k. Mike, none of your references say anything about “eye witness” either, because it is your standard that you have turned into a requirement, not scriptures.

Hi Paladin,

What you've done is try to find any mention of “see” and “witness” in the same sentence, as if those two words in the same sentence would equate to someone EYE-WITNESSING an event.

What I wanted to know is if anyone was ever said to have actually seen Jesus ascend from sheol back to the earth. Do you have any scriptures that show this happened? YES or NO?

I also await responses to these two points:

2. So, I await an answer on why you think the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking were clever enough to know he was speaking of COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN, but you apparently are not.

peace,
mike

As for you characterization of my post being “an act of desperation” –

Bye Bye Mike!!!

What should I do here, Irene? Pierre?

Irene invited me to this thread a while back. My first post to Paladin was a glowing accolade to how intelligent and passionate he was. Since then I've been accused of doing something I didn't do, accused of fabricating things to “get out of it”, bombarded with “million word posts” (most of which are fluff and don't even address the simple issue we're discussing), and have had my questions go unanswered repeatedly because I didn't word things the way Paladin wanted them worded.

He is clearly stuck on the bolded parts of the post above, and is itching for a way out. Should I “pretty up my post” for him so he has no further excuse not to answer the points? Or should I save myself a lot of headache because we all already have the answer we were looking for in the form of his unwillingness or inability to answer my points?

I'll let this question decide. I've asked the same question twice already in this thread, but have received no response. If Wispring or Paladin actually answer it this time, I'll stick around and try to convince Paladin to address the bolded points above.

1 Corinthians 2:4 NKJV
And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power…….

Paladin and/or Wispring, the two bolded and underlined words in the scripture above are the word “logos”. What mystical underlying message is conveyed by Paul using “logos” here instead of “rhema”; and how would the meaning of his statement have been altered had he chose to use the word “rhema” instead of “logos”?

mike

April 19, 2011 at 4:22 am#243725

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2011,22:12)

Son of man means decendent of human kind.

So was the Decendent of Human kind in heaven or was Jesus speaking in another context.

Hi Kerwin,

This whole argument is weak and far reaching IMO. Jesus was saying “I came down from heaven” and “what if you see ME ascend to where I was before”.

You guys put so much emphasis on “Son of Man” because you have nothing else. But anytime Jesus used the phrase “Son of Man”, he was saying “ME” or “I”. It was a phrase with which he frequently referred to himself.

But let me ask you this: Was Jesus the Lamb who was slain from before the founding of the earth? How could he have been the slain Lamb before he was sacrificed? Answer: The same way he could have been the Son of Man before he ever came in the flesh.

mike

April 19, 2011 at 4:40 am#243729

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2011,15:12)

Quote (Baker @ April 19 2011,09:07)

Quote (Wispring @ April 19 2011,12:46)

Hi Irene,

Quote

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

The boldened word in John 6:63 quoted above is reema/rhema. In my ISA bible program it is rendered remata(nomitive plural form noun)

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

Ok but what does that have to do with verse 62, which I think is more important to prove that Jesus preexisted.

Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Peace and Love Irene

Irene,

Son of man means decendent of human kind.

So was the Decendent of Human kind in heaven or was Jesus speaking in another context.

So not to confuse you in finding the other context I mean lets replace man with flesh as flesh means man in some contexts.

Kerwin, It is verse 63 they had quoted. And I want to zero in on verse 62 say's:” the Son of Man descended where He was before. He is not speaking of anything else…..That too would be adding to Scripture. I don;t do that. This Scripture is just like this one

Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Irene

April 19, 2011 at 5:56 am#243735

Participant

Irene,

I am going by the context of John 6:62-63. In verse 63 Jesus specifically states “the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything”. It is the Spirit of Christ that Jesus is speaking of and not the flesh because that is what is important. Jesus knows that he is nothing without the Spirit of God and he assumes we also know that.

The Spirit is life and Jesus’ spoken/written words teach us how to receive and live by the Spirit and thus give us life.

Scripture states Jesus inherited his position and that he did when he received the Spirit of God he then became the Son of God. We know he received the Holy Spirit before he had a choice to sin as he lived by it. This is proven by the fact he did not sin despite being tempted as we are.

As for John 17:5, Jesus is praying about the glory he will in the future receive a glory that existed with God and was reserved for him in the beginning.

So what glory, testified in scripture, fits those parameters?

In verse 1 Jesus prays `Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee,..’

In verse 4 he states “I did glorify Thee on the earth, the work I did finish that Thou hast given me, that I may do [it].”

It looks to me as he is speaking of the same glory in verse 15 that he is speaking of in verse 1.

To correctly understand this scripture you must understand the glory that Jesus is speaking of and like in John 6:62-63 it is spiritually discerned.

Scripture References:

Quote

John 6:62-63(Young’s Literal Translation)

62if then ye may behold the Son of Man going up where he was before?

63the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

John 17:1-5(Young’s Literal Translation)

1These things spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to the heaven, and said — `Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee,
2according as Thou didst give to him authority over all flesh, that — all that Thou hast given to him — he may give to them life age-during;
3and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send — Jesus Christ;
4I did glorify Thee on the earth, the work I did finish that Thou hast given me, that I may do [it].
5`And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;

April 19, 2011 at 6:06 am#243736

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,15:22)

Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2011,22:12)

Son of man means decendent of human kind.

So was the Decendent of Human kind in heaven or was Jesus speaking in another context.

Hi Kerwin,

This whole argument is weak and far reaching IMO. Jesus was saying “I came down from heaven” and “what if you see ME ascend to where I was before”.

mike

Exactly Mike;

In prophecy.

That is the only way Jesus could possibly have been the lamb slain from before the world began. Jesus, in the plan of God, is the proposed slain lamb; then when he is slain, he is in fact the lamb of God. All that passage teaches is exactly what I have been telling you all the time.

When “… the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.” [Gal 3:8]

Tell me Mike, how can scripture “foresee?” How can scripture
“preach the gospel unto Abraham?”

When did this happen? “And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.” [Gen 17:3-5]

In verse 3, “talked” is an aorist active verb; God talked.
“Saying” is a present active participle; This means that when God “talked” to Abraham, what he told him is still active because it is prophecy, which lives untill it is fulfilled. That is the only way “talked” can be aorist and “saying” can be present, both word speaking of the same event.

That this is true is shown by the next two verses; “thou shalt be a father of many nations;” “a father of many nations have I made thee.”

In verse 4 God makes a promise using a future form of the verb to be (“shalt be”); one verse later God uses a perfect active form of make, “have made.” The
“perfect” tense describes an action that is fully completed, and has consequences at the time of speaking.

Paul tells us “the scripture”…”foreseeing”…”preached.”
“foreseeing” is an active participle, telling us that if it is scripture, it is happening even if it is only in scripture, i.e, if it is written in God's word, it is as good as done, though not yet completed. It is in the “yet to happen” stage of being, because though spoken in the past, activates in the future.

“Preached” is aorist. The telling part is completed. The thing told, “In thee shall all nations be blessed.” is not. Yet it is – “a father of many nations have I made thee.” –
“have made” – The “perfect” tense describes an action that is fully completed and has consequences at the time of speaking.
But we know that Abraham as yet had no child, so how could it possibly be “fully completed?” Because as far as God was concerned, he had given his word, “spoken” it, and it was settled just as finally as when it became historical fact.

This is the same way all prophetic statements, when spoken, are spoken in a different tense than that of reality. What will be is said to have been – “As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations, before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.” [Rom 4:17]

God promised many things before he began creation. When he spoke them into prophecy, they became “true” without being
“truth.” They were true becasue God spoke it; they remained “without being true, because the prophecies were not fulfilled yet. Eternal salvation is just one of the things that fall into this category. Glory for Jesus with the father is another. “…for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”[Heb 12:2] Jesus was totally aware of all the promises of scripture, which included both the bad and the good. He accepted the one because of the promise of the other.

This is the only way Jesus had glory with the father before the world was begun. Otherwise, how can a promise of being raised to the second place in the kingdom, cause one to leave co-equal first place in that kingdom. This has to be explained for you to insist it is pre-historic Jesus. And God's love for his inferior creation does not explain it, because if Jesus was both perfect and with God, he would have had to leave a perfect love for an inferior love. There would have been insufficient motivation for his terrible suffering.

That would be like telling a husband who loves his wife dearly, that he needs to go to the slums to find a prostitue and love her, because prostitutes need love too. It simply does not explain it, neither does it justify all that Jesus had to suffer to complete the prophecies spoken by God.

Quote

Was Jesus the Lamb who was slain from before the founding of the earth? How could he have been the slain Lamb before he was sacrificed? Answer: The same way he could have been the Son of Man before he ever came in the flesh.

Prophecy; Seed of the woman [Gen 3:15]
Prophecy; Seed of Abraham [Gen 17:3-5]
Prophecy; seed of David “Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;”[Rom 1:3]
“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;” [Acts 2:29-30]

Jesus was raised up from the seed of men; “The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.” [Deu 18:15,18-19]

Jesus the man, begotten through generations of men, raised
“from the midst of thee, of thy brethren” is the fulfillment of these prophecies. He inherited a better name than the angels. How could this possibly be true, if Jesus was already in heaven before being a man? And God's son? Which angel ever had a better name than the son of God? All of them according to Hebrews – “Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.” [Heb 1:4] It says Jesus “was made” better than the angels, consequently “by inheritance obtained.
..” a better name.

Here you have two prophecies fulfilled in the resurrected Jesus
“For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?” [Heb 1:5]

“This day have I begoten thee” is prophesied in Psalm 2:7, and fulfilled the day of the resurrection –
“I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” [Psa 2:7]

“27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers,because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.” [Acts 13:27-33]

I do not care that you are dissatisfied with my efforts, Mike, I care because I have been inadequate to help you see these things. I see in you and Irene, and others, a love for God, that needs exposure to the truth, and desparately need to understand how prophecy works.

I accept whatever hostility this board has to offer just as David accepted Shimei, and for the same reason. My prayer to God is that he release me from this board and let me go back to my own; but he either has something for me to teach, or he has something for me to learn. Until that matter is resolved, “woe unto me if I preach not the gospel.”

April 19, 2011 at 7:08 am#243738

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,15:12)

Quote (Paladin @ April 18 2011,03:45)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,09:59)

Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,13:38)

That's o.k. Mike, none of your references say anything about “eye witness” either, because it is your standard that you have turned into a requirement, not scriptures.

Hi Paladin,

What you've done is try to find any mention of “see” and “witness” in the same sentence, as if those two words in the same sentence would equate to someone EYE-WITNESSING an event.

What I wanted to know is if anyone was ever said to have actually seen Jesus ascend from sheol back to the earth. Do you have any scriptures that show this happened? YES or NO?

I also await responses to these two points:

2. So, I await an answer on why you think the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking were clever enough to know he was speaking of COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN, but you apparently are not.

peace,
mike

As for you characterization of my post being “an act of desperation” –

Bye Bye Mike!!!

What should I do here, Irene? Pierre?

1 Corinthians 2:4 NKJV
And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power…….

mike

Mike your qquestion is our of bounds, and that is why I have refrained form responding to it.

You specifically limited any response to our having to deal with what you perceive as a “mystical underlying message.”

I am not into “mystical underlying messages” so am unqualified to respond to your question. I would recommend you ask a mystic or a scholar.

April 19, 2011 at 9:53 am#243742

Participant

Mike Boll,

If Paladin is correct it seems you are claiming that the spirit being you conjecture will become the Son of man before he was made human because God foreordained he would and thus Jesus was treating what God had promised as if it already was in John 6:62-63. That is of course a plausible argument but it is also the same one that I used when discussing John 17:5 with you in the past and you did not choose to believe it applied there. Have you changed your mind since that time?

In regards to message of Scripture in general is it true that Jesus embodies the Spirit of Christ?

Did the Spirit of Chris come from above?

Did the embodied Spirit of Christ return to God?

April 19, 2011 at 9:58 am#243743