Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 17 2011,04:46)

What I'm claiming is what the scriptures teach. Jesus existed in the form of God, meaning “as a spirit being in heaven”. Then he was made as a human being. It was not the “spirit being Jesus” being “put into a flesh body”, but rather the spirit being of Jesus being remade as a bonafide flesh and blood human being.

When scripture speaks of men in bodies of flesh being remade
as a bona fide spiritual body, it is called “New Birth” in baptism.

Where is your parallel scripture telling us of Jesus' fleshly “rebirth” from spirit to flesh? Mathew tells us Jesus was gennaw of the Spirit, but John tells us that was not a reference to his flesh, because what is gennaw of the spirit is spirit: “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be gennaw again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be gennaw when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be gennaw?5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be gennaw of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.6 That which is gennaw of the flesh is flesh; and that which is gennaw of the Spirit is spirit.7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be gennaw again.” [John 3:3-7]

I think someone is confused on this issue. Remember, it is your testimony that

Quote

What I'm claiming is what the scriptures teach.

1 Peter 1:23 Being [anna/gennaw](born again) not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the logos of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

If you claim it is the same way men are born again to the spirit, you have to explain how it is that the plan for men is reversed for Jesus, but with no record in scripture. Men are born again by the logos of God, But the is no record of the logos of God being born again by the flesh of anybody.

Born is gennaw, born again is annagennaw. You desparately need this in your portfollio of evidence Mike.

April 17, 2011 at 12:06 pm#243466

Participant

Quote (942767 @ April 17 2011,05:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2011,12:11)

Quote (942767 @ April 14 2011,11:34)

Hi Mike:

I have already been over all of this with you, and so, I see not point in re-hashing the same thing over and over again.

None of those scriptures that you have say that he pre-existed. You may interpret them to mean that, but they do not specifically state that.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Marty,

I don't mean to pressure you, but if you'd just directly answer the question I've asked twice now, I'd appreciate it. Here's the question for the third time:

Can you show me even one scripture that prohibits Jesus from pre-existing?

Be forewarned though, there most likely will be the follow-up question of “How so?”.

Thanks,
mike

Quote

Matthew 1:20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Quote

Luke 1:26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

I do not think they are capable of understanding the meaning of “Begotten” is “to cause to be.” When scripture says Jesus was “begotten of the spirit” it means the spirit caused him to be.

Can't get any simpler than that.

April 17, 2011 at 1:05 pm#243467

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 16 2011,13:10)

Quote (Paladin @ April 15 2011,01:14)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2011,10:40)

Hi Paladin,

It seems to me that your understanding of John 6:62 is that Jesus is speaking of “ascending” from Sheol to where he was before on the earth, right?

Breifly acknowledge if this is what you're saying please.

mike

John is asking what the Jews will do – “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” [John 6:62]

Paul talks about what Jesus ascends to and from – “Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?” [Eph 4:9]

And Paul describes it perfectly – “For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”

Paul says Jesus descended, then ascended.

John asked what they would do if they saw Jesus ascend to where he was before. The son of man was descended to the lower part of the earth before.

It is not Paladin who originated this. It is John and Paul.

Hi Paladin,

I didn't suggest you “originated” anything. I asked about “YOUR understanding” of John 6:62. Surely you know what your own understanding is, right?

Since you didn't actually answer the question I asked, I'll just assume that your understanding is that Jesus was speaking of ascending from Sheol back to the earth – where he was before. Now let's see if that understanding fits the context:

John 6 NIV
33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

What IS this “bread that came down FROM heaven”?

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life.

He says, “bread of life”, but does that mean he is the aforementioned “bread that came down FROM heaven”?

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Hmmm…………..now we know that Jesus is the “bread of life” and that he “came down from heaven”, but should we take this to mean he is the aforementioned “bread that came down FROM heaven”? Apparently that's the way the Jews he was speaking to took it:

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

We can see here that the Jews didn't really understand the teaching Jesus was giving them, but they were certainly clear about what he was claiming, right? They were not one bit confused about the fact that this man, who's father and mother they knew, was for some reason now claiming that he CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN.

46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

I include this scripture for one main reason – to show you that believing in the pre-existence of Jesus does NOT equate to believing in the trinity doctrine. Jesus is NOT God, but the only one who has SEEN God, because he is the only one who is FROM God, in this particular sense. It would be stupid for “God” to say he's the only one who has “seen God” and was “FROM God”.

48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven.

Ahhhhh………….question answered. Jesus IS in fact the aforementioned “bread that came down FROM heaven”.

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

Once again, the Jews voiced their disbelief that this man they knew “came down from heaven”. (Sound like anyone you know? )

Which brings us to the scripture in question:

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

Keep in mind that Jesus didn't once talk about “Jonah” or “rising after three days” in this teaching. Keep in mind that “came down from” means exactly the same thing as “descended from”, and this is what Jesus was teaching his disciples – that he CAME DOWN from, or DESCENDED from heaven.

I can't see how anyone could honestly deny the teaching here. Even those who heard the words at least knew what he was saying to them, even if they couldn't grasp what it meant at the time.

So think about it for a minute. If Jesus spent all that time teaching his disciples that he came DOWN from heaven, and they found the teaching hard to accept, then what do you think is clearly implied by him saying, “Well, if it offends you to think I came DOWN from heaven, what are you going to think when you see me go back UP to there?”

Paladin, certain people here think I'm too “hard” or too
“authoritarian” or whatever. But this is how I come to be this way. IMO, a person would have to totally ignore the clear teaching of John 6:30-65 and just PRETEND things to make this mean something else. I deal with this same mentality with the Trinitarians here on a daily basis. I don't say these exact words to them, but I think to myself, “What kind of MORON would be DUMB ENOUGH to believe that the Son OF God could possibly BE the God he is the Son OF?”

And these are the same thoughts I have now, but I refrain from “saying them out loud”. How in the world could any sensible person think “ascend to where I was before” could mean anything but heaven considering the context in which those words were said?

You had to have just pulled your theory out of thin air, since the context in which Jesus said those words had nothing at all to do with Jesus being raised on the third day.

But I have one more “ace in the hole” for your theory, Paladin. Notice the word “SEE” in Jesus' statement. What ascension did his disciples actually SEE? Did anyone SEE him ascend from Sheol back to the earth? NO. Did anyone SEE him ascend to heaven?

Acts 1:9
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

Keep in mind that just like “came down” means “descended” in the context of John 6, “taken up” means “ascended” in the context of Acts 1:9. So I ask you, which “ascension” did the disciples actually eye witness, as was alluded to by Jesus in John 6? [/quote]

Well Mike, give me a moment here – What was your question?

Oh, right…

Quo
te

So I ask you, which “ascension” did the disciples actually eye witness, as was alluded to by Jesus in John 6?

Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 10:38-41 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Acts 13:29-31 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

Acts 26:22-23 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

April 17, 2011 at 2:21 pm#243470

Baker

Participant

Paladin!

Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:41 ¶ The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven

This is talking about before Jesus acceded to where Jesus was before. three times He said SENT, so where was He sent from? If not from Heaven….

Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Here the Jews questioned Jesus if He had seen Abraham, and His answer is?

Peace and Love Irene

April 17, 2011 at 2:47 pm#243473

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 16 2011,20:03)

Paladin,

Could you please critique my last post to Mike as far as what I understand about John 1:14. Thank you!

See PM

April 17, 2011 at 3:02 pm#243475

Participant

Quote (Baker @ April 18 2011,01:21)

Paladin!

Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:41 ¶ The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven

This is talking about before Jesus acceded to where Jesus was before. three times He said SENT, so where was He sent from? If not from Heaven….

Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Here the Jews questioned Jesus if He had seen Abraham, and His answer is?

Peace and Love Irene

“There was a man sent from God…”

Where was he sent from Irene, from Eden's garden, or from heaven, like the baptism of John? He was sent exactly the same way Jesus was sent.

Jesus was not of this world, neither were his disciples, and in the smae exact way.

“The baptism of John, whence cometh it, from heaven? Or of men?”

Jesus is “not of this world.”

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.”[John 8:23]

“I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.” [John 17:14-18]

“There was a man sent from God…”

How?

April 17, 2011 at 5:14 pm#243478

Participant

Hi All:

It may be that John 1:14 is referring to the event where Jesus received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and began his ministry.

As he said:

Quote

Luke 4:17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

It was at this time that the Holy Spirit indwelt him and he was sent into the world.

It was the Father who sent him into the world and this time and it was the Father who was going to speak to humanity through him, and so he says:

Quote

John 6:29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Quote

John 6:47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48I am that bread of life.

49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Then he speaks of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, and there were those Jews that stopped following him because of this:

Quote

John 6:53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

But he explained what he was saying to his disciples when he said:

Quote

John 6:61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

And so, by speaking of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, Jesus was speaking of what God was doing through him, that is in his body. He obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.

Quote

2 Co 5:18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Love in Christ,
Marty

April 17, 2011 at 5:33 pm#243479

Blocked

Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,03:48)

If you claim it is the same way men are born again to the spirit, you have to explain how it is that the plan for men is reversed for Jesus, but with no record in scripture.

What are you talking about? There are plenty of scriptural records, such as Phil 2. Paul tells us that Jesus was existing in the form of God, but then emptied himself of this form and was made as a human being.

Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,03:48)

Men are born again by the logos of God, But there is no record of the logos of God being born again by the flesh of anybody.

Perhaps not born again “by the flesh of anybody”, but is not John 1 a clear case of how something spiritual that was with God in the beginning, and through whom God made all things, BECAME FLESH and came to the world that was his own and dwelled among us as a human being?

And being “born again by Spirit” is the act of something flesh becoming spiritual in nature. The “reverse” would be something spiritual in nature becoming flesh. And I think “the Word BECAME FLESH” satisfies that requirement, don't you?

Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,03:48)

1 Peter 1:23 Being [anna/gennaw](born again) not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the logos of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Paladin, I believe you may have stumbled upon something within this verse that has been overlooked by many translators.

While we know that “logos” and “rhema” are simply Greek words that mean “word”, (despite your failed efforts to prove that “logos” has some mystical underlying meaning), we also know that Jesus has the name “the Word of God” because he is the main spokesman for God. And you have brought to my attention another mention of “logos of God” that might be better off translated as “the Word of God”, based on the context. Compare your scripture with these other writings of Peter:

1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Hmmmmmm……………new birth through Jesus Christ?

1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Hmmmmmm…………..made into something spiritual through Jesus Christ? Compare those two with your scripture, which says we are being born again of incorruptible seed through the Word of God.

And compare those three teachings of Peter with these teachings found thoughout the NT:

We have grace and truth through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)
We have peace through Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:36)
We have righteousness through Jesus Christ. (Romans 3:22)
We are justified through Jesus Christ. (Romans 3:24)
We are delivered through Jesus Christ. (Romans 7:4)
God gives us victory through Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:57)
We have confidence through Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 3:4)
We Gentiles have the blessing given to Abraham through Jesus Christ. (Galatians 3:14)
Our adoption as spirit sons of God comes through Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1:5)
We are made holy through Jesus Christ. (Colossians 1:22)
We receive salvation through Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

But most importantly, since we died through Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4), it is most fitting that we are also born again through him. (Titus 3:5-6)

Thanks for pointing that scripture out to me, Paladin.

mike

April 17, 2011 at 6:14 pm#243483

Blocked

Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,07:05)

Well Mike, give me a moment here – What was your question?

Oh, right…

Quote

So I ask you, which “ascension” did the disciples actually eye witness, as was alluded to by Jesus in John 6?

Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

You're kidding, right?

First, none of your scriptures say anyone was an EYE witness to Jesus ascending from sheol. So while these disciples saw Jesus after he ascended, and were therefore able to witness that he did in fact live after he died, not one of them SAW this ascension with their own eyes.

And Jesus didn't say, “What if you see the Son of Man AFTER HE HAS ALREADY ASCENDED TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”, did he?

So, I'm still looking for any EYE witness accounts from anyone who literally SAW Jesus ascend from sheol WITH THEIR OWN EYES, as they saw him ascend to heaven WITH THEIR OWN EYES.

Also, you didn't touch on my point that Jesus didn't once speak of rising on the third day during this whole teaching he gave in John 6.

So, I'm still looking for some scriptural validation to support your “out of the blue” assumption that, in the middle of a teaching about how he came down from heaven, Jesus followed up this teaching by speaking of “ascending to where he was before”, meaning “from sheol back to the earth”.

And contrary to the “Garden of Eden” suggestion you gave to Irene, it seems that all of the people Jesus spoke to that day were very clear on the fact that he was claiming he CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN. I don't remember reading how any of THEM nonsensically thought Jesus was speaking of coming from the “Garden of Eden”.

So, I await an answer on why you think the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking were clever enough to know he was speaking of COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN, but you apparently are not.

Please address all things bolded in my post, Paladin.

mike

April 17, 2011 at 6:30 pm#243484

Blocked

And here come all the “well, it could have meant” guesses from the non-preexisters who must go out of their way to find odd, alternate meanings to clearly worded scriptures.

Let me ask you this, Marty:

COULD IT ALSO HAVE MEANT that Jesus came down from heaven, and foretold about the time when his disciples would actually EYEWITNESS him ascending back to where he was before, as they eventually did?

I would really like to know why it COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE MEANT THAT, since THAT is what is CLEARLY taught.

mike

April 17, 2011 at 7:27 pm#243493

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,05:30)

And here come all the “well, it could have meant” guesses from the non-preexisters who must go out of their way to find odd, alternate meanings to clearly worded scriptures.

Let me ask you this, Marty:

I would really like to know why it COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE MEANT THAT, since THAT is what is CLEARLY taught.

mike

No, it could have not possibly meant that because of the scriptures that I have already given you regarding Jesus being conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary.

The problem is that you are not reading what is being said, but only reacting on your pre-conceived notion that Jesus pre-existed.

Love in Christ,
Marty

April 17, 2011 at 7:38 pm#243496

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,05:14)

Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,07:05)

Well Mike, give me a moment here – What was your question?

Oh, right…

Quote

So I ask you, which “ascension” did the disciples actually eye witness, as was alluded to by Jesus in John 6?

Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

You're kidding, right?

And Jesus didn't say, “What if you see the Son of Man AFTER HE HAS ALREADY ASCENDED TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”, did he?

So, I'm still looking for any EYE witness accounts from anyone who literally SAW Jesus ascend from sheol WITH THEIR OWN EYES, as they saw him ascend to heaven WITH THEIR OWN EYES.

Also, you didn't touch on my point that Jesus didn't once speak of rising on the third day during this whole teaching he gave in John 6.

So, I await an answer on why you think the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking were clever enough to know he was speaking of COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN, but you apparently are not.

Please address all things bolded in my post, Paladin.

mike

That's o.k. Mike, none of your references say anything about “eye witness” either, because it is your standard that you have turned into a requirement, not scriptures.

No scripture says anyone was an eye witness to anything. It is not a scriptural term. (unless you go to another translation, which is useless, because the Greek terminology is not there.

You decide to make a stipulation requiring a standard and throw down the gauntlet, but when the standard is turned on you, you can't produce it either.

I have provided at least two accounts that use “seen” or
“shown” in conjunction with “witness” –

“And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.” [Acts 13:31]

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.Acts 10:40-41]

Can you do better? It is, after all, your own standard, not the scriptures.

April 17, 2011 at 8:03 pm#243497

Participant

So, Mike, Irene, any who believe in pre-existent Jesus –

Please indicate whether I am understanding your position here

Are you saying Jesus pre-existed in spirit form as the word of God, based upon the word being the spirit of God?

If that sounds awkward, it is because I am trying to find a way to word what I think is someone else's doctrine that I do not believe, so please, feel free to reword my statement to fit your understanding.

Do I at least have the basic understanding? How would you reword it for your own positional understanding?

April 17, 2011 at 10:10 pm#243503

kerwin

Participant

Paladin,

I am having some trouble understanding what your conclusion is. From what I understand the common Greek word “gennaō”, which you label gennaw, means sired. So flesh is sired by flesh and spirit is sired by spirit. So just as Jesus taught Nicodemus that a human being must be sired of both Spirit and water to enter the kingdom of heaven the Spirit of Jesus himself was sired in the womb of Mary by the Spirit of God.

According to my understanding of Matthew 1:20, the body and flesh of Jesus miraculously came to be in the womb of Mary by the Spirit of God, as the Spirit of Christ is God’s creative force.

Never the less I agree with the spirit of your understanding for the reason that Jesus never sinned even though tempted as is common to man, proving he was always sired of the spirit of righteousness and holiness.

According to Strong’s “gennaō” translated “sired”, “genos” translated “kindred” and “ginomai”, the later which Mike prefers the translation “was made”, are all related words.

This is definitely food for thought. I plan on getting back to this later, God willing.

April 17, 2011 at 10:39 pm#243505

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ April 17 2011,13:27)

The problem is that you are not reading what is being said, but only reacting on your pre-conceived notion that Jesus pre-existed.

I disagree, Marty.

I think the REAL problem is that not one of the scriptures you showed prohibit Jesus from having a spiritual pre-existence. Correct me if I'm wrong, sir. And if I am wrong, please point me to the exact words of the scriptures you quoted that explain how Jesus couldn't possibly have pre-existed in the form of God before emptying himself and being made as a human being.

If you cannot do that, then perhaps you could answer the question I asked again. Because your answer of “No, it's not possible” is based on your claim that some scripture prohibits the pre-existence of Christ. If that scripture does not exist, then your answer must be adjusted, right?

The other problem is that you think it takes a “vivid imagination” to understand “I came down from heaven” and “what if you see me ascend to where I was before”, as they are written.

Marty, the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking in John 6 clearly understood that this “regular man”, whose parents they all knew, was for some odd reason, all of a sudden now claiming that he “came down from heaven”. They didn't know what he meant by that, but they at least knew what his words were saying. Why don't you?

mike

April 17, 2011 at 10:47 pm#243507

Participant

Quote (942767 @ April 18 2011,06:27)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2011,05:30)

And here come all the “well, it could have meant” guesses from the non-preexisters who must go out of their way to find odd, alternate meanings to clearly worded scriptures.

Let me ask you this, Marty:

I would really like to know why it COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE MEANT THAT, since THAT is what is CLEARLY taught.

mike

No, it could have not possibly meant that because of the scriptures that I have already given you regarding Jesus being conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary.

The problem is that you are not reading what is being said, but only reacting on your pre-conceived notion that Jesus pre-existed.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi Mike:

Jesus said:

Quote

Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

The bread of life were the Words that God was speaking to humanity through him. It was the Holy Spirit that was indwelling him and speaking to humanity through him.

Quote

Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus existed in the heart of the Father prior to the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person. God forknew that at a specific point in time he would conceive a Son in through whom He would reconcile the world unto Himself.

Jesus says “what if you see the Son of man ascend where he was before”? He was not the Son of man until he was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary and born into this world as a living soul. His spirit then was formed through obedience to the Word of God. It is this spirit that is the spirit of the Son.

And so, yes, he came down from heaven. He was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin mary, and his spirit was formed by the Word of God that he obeyed without sin even unto death on the cross. And of course the Word of God came from heaven. It was the Holy Ghost speaking to humanity through his Only Begotten Son and His Christ.

Forget about Philippians 2:6 referring in some way to Jesus prior to his birth into this world. The Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility and giving the life of Jesus as an example of humility. He existed in the form of God in his earthly ministry as God's Christ, not in heaven prior to his birth.

Humility:

Quote

John 13:12So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

14If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

15For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

16Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Love in Christ,
Marty

April 17, 2011 at 10:55 pm#243508

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2011,09:10)

Paladin,

According to my understanding of Matthew 1:20, the body and flesh of Jesus miraculously came to be in the womb of Mary by the Spirit of God, as the Spirit of Christ is God’s creative force.

According to Strong’s “gennaō” translated “sired”, “genos” translated “kindred” and “ginomai” that Mike prefers the translation “was made” are all related words.

This is definitely food for thought. I plan on getting back to this later, God willing.

What makes it such a mixed problem, my friend, is the translators who translate gennaw to mean “beget, conceive, birth, born, bare, which pretty well covers the process of Human replication from begettal to birth and all points in between.

As for the wordlist you showed that mike says are all related, I would have to say most words in a language have a traceable relationship in some fashion, and sometimes even between languages, so it is not really saying anything significant.

Sometimes someone will try to make more out of a fact of relationship than there is in a relationship. It is kinda like testing the relationship between water meter and watermellon; both have a similar morpheme in “water;” both have a similar musical sound of four sylables; neither being related to the other, because one is used to measure water flow, while the other is a fruit with “water” as part of its name.

The translators are the direct cause of many of the differences in doctrine that has resulted in 10,000 denominations divided over a word, or a sound or a segment of a word.

Some translators are even now adding words to the translations to make their own doctrine more evident.Case in point is a new translation called “Net Bible” which adds a word to John 1:1 to “clarify” a position point – 1:1 “In the beginning 1 was the Word, and the Word was with God, 2 and the Word was fully God.”

The word was “fully” God. John never said any such thing, but that doesn't stop the ranslator (Daniel wallace) from making the effort.( Moment of truth – I don't know whether D.Wallace is the translator or the editor, but his name is attatched to the translation.)

The problem with Jesus' begettal in the spirit by the spirit, is how to account for the flesh; “made of a woman” is not the same as begotten, rather it reminds me of Adam's rib being the material for Eve's creation; so also, Mary's body is the material from which God “made” the son's flesh. This is not unlike the making of all men in the mother's womb; the difference being, nowhere are we told that our spirit is begotten of the Holy Spirit, but Jesus is the one exception to that issue.

So, my position is, Jesus's spirit was begotten of the spirit, producing spirit; Jesus' flesh was “made of a woman” after the fashion of Adam's rib made Eve. What we are, came from Eden's origins; What Jesus is came directly from heaven, just like John's baptism; i.e., by the authority from heaven.

April 17, 2011 at 10:59 pm#243510

Blocked

Quote (Paladin @ April 17 2011,13:38)

That's o.k. Mike, none of your references say anything about “eye witness” either, because it is your standard that you have turned into a requirement, not scriptures.

Hi Paladin,

Your post is the act of desparation. Acts 1:9 has the words “taken up before our very eyes”, which refers to people actually EYE-WITNESSING the ascension of Jesus. The actual Greek says “blepo autos” which means “themselves saw by use of the eye”.

What you've done is try to find any mention of “see” and “witness” in the same sentence, as if those two words in the same sentence would equate to someone EYE-WITNESSING an event.

What I wanted to know is if anyone was ever said to have actually seen Jesus ascend from sheol back to the earth. Do you have any scriptures that show this happened? YES or NO?

I also await responses to these two points:

1. So, I'm still looking for some scriptural validation to support your “out of the blue” assumption that, in the middle of a teaching about how he came down from heaven, Jesus followed up this teaching by speaking of “ascending to where he was before”, meaning “from sheol back to the earth”.

2. So, I await an answer on why you think the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking were clever enough to know he was speaking of COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN, but you apparently are not.

peace,
mike

April 17, 2011 at 11:01 pm#243511

Participant

Hi Mike:

You say:

Quote

The other problem is that you think it takes a “vivid imagination” to understand “I came down from heaven” and “what if you see me ascend to where I was before”, as they are written.

The Jews did not understand that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, but we have that understanding through the scriptures. That is not a mystery to us, and the scriptures also state that God has spoken to humanity through His Son in these last days. No mystery as to how the Spirit of the Son was formed.

The burden of proof is on you if you are going to say that he pre-existed in the form of God prior to his birth into this world.

Love in Christ,
Marty

April 17, 2011 at 11:05 pm#243514