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Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 26 2011,22:01) Hi Paladin,
This what I am thinking conceptually. Jesus was the personification of the Logos of God. Every word recorded in the scripture to be of Jesus was of the Logos which is of God. Kind of like a 3 station direct communication link.
Love and Respect,
Wispring
Much more then that….Scriptures already given…..Jesus is not just a mere man. Just being born as a Human being, He was in pregnant-gated by the Holy Spirit, and not a man….God's literal Son……He emptied Himself and became a man, a Servant at that. A ransom for all.Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 26 2011,21:48) Hi Paladin,
I was reading my NIV.Quote John 6:63 (New International Version, ©2011)
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[a] and life.
you would be more familiar with:John 6:63 (King James Version)
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Love and Respect,
Wispring
There you have it my friend. I mostly limit myself to one translation, the KJV. That way I don't have two sources of error to remember.Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 26 2011,22:01) Hi Paladin,
This what I am thinking conceptually. Jesus was the personification of the Logos of God. Every word recorded in the scripture to be of Jesus was of the Logos which is of God. Kind of like a 3 station direct communication link.
Love and Respect,
Wispring
I am not sure my friend, but I think the saints are the personification of the logos of God as they yield their life to allowing Christ to express true life in them.Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 26 2011,22:10) Hi Paladin, Quote Luke 1:35 (King James Version) 35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Quote Matthew 1:20 (King James Version) 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
What I am curious about here is why is Jesus referred and a “thing” or “that”?With Love and Respect,
Wispring
As God is the author of scripture, and his ways are not our ways, I accept the fact He uses the vernacular to express significant ideas, so it can truly be said the unlearned and ignorant can read and learn.God is called, “it” as in “It is God…”
“IT” is my Father, and your God
John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: [IT] is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”“IT” is God
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for [it is] he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as [it is] this day.
Deu 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he [it is] that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
Josh 23:10 One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he [it is] that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you.
Josh 24:17 For the LORD our God, he [it is] that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:
2 Sam 22:48 It [is] God that avengeth me, and that bringeth down the people under me,
Psa 18:32 [IT is] God that…
Psa 18:47 [IT is] God that avengeth me…
Psa 60:12 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he [IT is that] shall…
Psa 100:3 Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [IT is] he [that]
Psa 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he [IT is that]…
Isa 36:7 But if thou say to me, We trust in the LORD our God: [is IT] not he…
Rom 3:30 Seeing [IT is] one God, which shall…..
Rom 8:33 …..[IT is] God that……
1 Cor 12:6 … but IT is THE same God WHICH…..
And He is called “That” and several other things beside “He.”
Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 26 2011,22:16) Hi Paladin,
I have worked as a radar operator, radio-communications operator, computer operator/programmer as professions in my life I have a tendency to use the terminology from these experiences in my manner of speech. I am unused to using bible-based terminology. Bear with me as I learn.Love and Respect,
Wispring
Hi Wispering;I was an aircraft radar repairman in the Marine corps years ago, and know what you are saying. It was the elite school of the navy at the time, so I was kinda full of myself, till I became a Christian in spirit rather than in letter.
There is a vast and subtle difference, as you have figured out.
Hi Paladin,
Something that makes me smile on the inside. Jesus never used the word doctrine.
.
Love and Respect,
WispringQuote (karmarie @ Mar. 26 2011,11:16) Hi, i'm short of time and things right now but can someone please tell me, who is who here? Gene I know, but do Paladin and Wispring also believe Jesus was a Man who was filled with the Holy Spirit, but didn't pre-exist untill then? Thanks.
I havent read this thread but may at a later date.
Hi Karmarie;
I believe the word “begotten” should actually be read and expressed in any study of who and what Jesus is and was. He had a beginning in history, not an existance in eternity before creation.Jesus was not only “filled with the Holy Spirit,” as also were some of the prophets, (many of whom had the Spirit but not to the same depth of measure [Elisha and Elijah come to mind]) He was begotten of the Spirit [Mat 1:20] and “that which is begotten of the spirit is spirit” [John 3:6] so Jesus had a beginning not acknowledged by some, not understood by many, and denied by a few.
He was a begotten spirit [John 3:6], his flesh was “made of a woman” [Gal 4:4] just as surely as Eve was made from Adam's rib.
The battle over whether he had a beginning has an interesting effect upon some scholars who are caught up in the issue of sources, as to whether John 1:18 should read
“only begotten son” or “only begotten God,” but both sides in the dispute ignore the “begotten” aspect, to debate “God” or “Son.”And of course it totally ignores the prophecies of Deut 18:15,18 among a host of others – “The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”
This expresses the truth of the matter, Jesus is a man raised from among the Hebrews, to serve Jehovah God as His prophet
from among God's chosen prople; also verified in Acts 2:22ff
“…Jesus of Nazareth, a [aneer] man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up…”And since Jesus' ancestors have been listed more than once in scriptures, there is little doubt as to his authenticity as a man, nor that he had a beginning, according to the scriptures.
Welcome to the board. And grace and hope to you and yours from me and mine.
Quote (Baker @ Mar. 26 2011,11:24) Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 26 2011,11:16) Hi, i'm short of time and things right now but can someone please tell me, who is who here? Gene I know, but do Paladin and Wispring also believe Jesus was a Man who was filled with the Holy Spirit, but didn't pre-exist untill then? Thanks.
I havent read this thread but may at a later date.
Hi! Yes, Paladin does not believe in the preexisting. I am not 100% sure what Wispring believes. I think He goes along with Paladin…..Peace Irene
Hello again dear sister;Might I suggest, Wispering and Paladin go along with scripture, not each other, except as the scripture agrees?There is a subtle difference.
Grace and hope to your and yours from me and mine.
Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 26 2011,23:01) Hi Paladin,
Something that makes me smile on the inside. Jesus never used the word doctrine. .
Love and Respect,
Wispring
One of several – John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said,
“My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.”Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 26 2011,23:35) Hi Paladin, monogenE and huios ….only begotten son…pretty clear here.
Love and Respect,
WispringThe Nestle text which is the basis for the NIV has Monogenee and theos – pretty clear to those who insist he is “begotten God”
The Nestle Greek text selected by Eberhard Nestle is based upon a comparison of the texts edited by Tischendorf (1869-1872), by Westcott and Hort (1881), and Bernard Weiss (1894-1900); using the standard “where two of these editions agreed, Nestle used it.”
In 1958 G.D. Kilpatrick and Erwin Nestle, in colaboration with several other scholars, produced a revised edition of Nestle's 1904 text.
I much prefer the KJV on this because God is not “begotten.” Man is.
Hi Irene,
I think I can think for myself. I am learning how to understand Greek. I do not blindly accept what Paladin posts. I know how to do research and have been able use the internet as a tool for that for years. I don't buy computers. I build them. I don't buy belief, I allowed to be built in me by reading scriptures, doing research and having it revealed from God. I believe the Kingdom of God is within me just like Jesus said. Not somewhere “up” or “out” there. I was NEVER indoctrinated into any organized church in my life. I believe God blessed me with respect to this. I believe he did so, so that the holy spirit could work more easily through a clean slate, as it were. I have been nothing but honest here in my postings on this web-site as I have been my whole life, sometimes, to my own detriment. I was raised up with “Honesty being the best policy” taught to me from my mother and it is an integral part of my character. I believe God loves everone and I mean everyone just the same. More than anyone can ever know. I am extremely thankful for what Jesus did and still does. I believe even those judged unworthy by God are still loved by him even more than they could know. I believe it is not my responsibility to make those kind of judgements because of what Jesus taught about judging people.
I believe I love you and everyone on Gods' green Earth. I don't believe Jesus was a mere man. Now you know a little more of what I believe. I also love warm summer nights with low humidity. I love teaching people how to play guitar. I love the sound of bird song in the morning. I don't like cold weather. I really like watching tennis. I don't like watching baseball on tv, but, I do like watching it live. I like geology, oceanography, quantum theory, music theory, sherlok holmes books, national geographic magazine, biology, Nikola Tesla, and so many other things that if a book were written to express them all it would fill the entire world. Hi! How are you doing? . This is as much about me as I wish to share at this time. I hope you have a better mental picture of me. I hope we can still be friends.With Love and Respect,
WispringThanks very much for sharing that Paladin. I'll keep reading here on this thread. Very interesting. Its similar to something else I was reading a while back, and I understood it.
God bless.
Hi Paladin,
One of two.Quote John 7:16-17 (King James Version) 16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
With Love and Respect,
WispringQuote (Paladin @ Mar. 26 2011,23:11) Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 26 2011,11:16) Hi, i'm short of time and things right now but can someone please tell me, who is who here? Gene I know, but do Paladin and Wispring also believe Jesus was a Man who was filled with the Holy Spirit, but didn't pre-exist untill then? Thanks.
I havent read this thread but may at a later date.
Hi Karmarie;
I believe the word “begotten” should actually be read and expressed in any study of who and what Jesus is and was. He had a beginning in history, not an existance in eternity before creation.Jesus was not only “filled with the Holy Spirit,” as also were some of the prophets, (many of whom had the Spirit but not to the same depth of measure [Elisha and Elijah come to mind]) He was begotten of the Spirit [Mat 1:20] and “that which is begotten of the spirit is spirit” [John 3:6] so Jesus had a beginning not acknowledged by some, not understood by many, and denied by a few.
He was a begotten spirit [John 3:6], his flesh was “made of a woman” [Gal 4:4] just as surely as Eve was made from Adam's rib.
The battle over whether he had a beginning has an interesting effect upon some scholars who are caught up in the issue of sources, as to whether John 1:18 should read
“only begotten son” or “only begotten God,” but both sides in the dispute ignore the “begotten” aspect, to debate “God” or “Son.”And of course it totally ignores the prophecies of Deut 18:15,18 among a host of others – “The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”
This expresses the truth of the matter, Jesus is a man raised from among the Hebrews, to serve Jehovah God as His prophet
from among God's chosen prople; also verified in Acts 2:22ff
“…Jesus of Nazareth, a [aneer] man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up…”And since Jesus' ancestors have been listed more than once in scriptures, there is little doubt as to his authenticity as a man, nor that he had a beginning, according to the scriptures.
Welcome to the board. And grace and hope to you and yours from me and mine.
Paladin……… This is Right on Brother, about Jesus coming into existence as a real being. You and wispring and Shimmer or (Karmarie) and Kerwin and others are all good inspiring members here giving us all good thing to think about. IMOpeace and love to you and your…………………..gene
Baker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
(Irene)Quote Jesus is not just a mere man. Just being born as a Human being, (Mary having been impregnated by the Holy Spirit), and not a man….God's literal Son……He emptied Himself and became a man, a Servant at that. A ransom for all. [Modified by Paladin to honor my sister]
“..Jesus of Nazareth, a [aneer] man approved of God among you..” [Acts 2:22]
Quote Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
The verb tenses are wrong. The translators are trying to demonstrate a pre-existant Jesus, but the verbs are not correct, and there are no definite articles until verse ten, none in eleven and twelve.
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him form of a servant, and was made in likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even death of cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” [Php 2:5-12]
It should read “Let this mind be in you which also in Christ Jesus who being in form of God…”
“Was” is not in the text, nor is the article before “Form.”
“Let this mind…” is a 2nd person imperative followed by a 2nd person imperative in verse 12 “work out your own salvation…”
The significance of the imperative in verse 5, is the fact that
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross,” is all one long sentence, with subordinate clauses,
resulting in the imperative of verse 5 controls the “present” of the sentence, so that the reference to Jesus, is a reference to Jesus the man in the present, not Jesus pre-existant and in aorist or any other “past” tense.“Who Being” of verse 6 is present tense, not aorist or any other “past” event. It took place while Jesus was a man. Since Paul is speaking of an event that happened during the lifetime of Jesus, it must complete the action of the imperative that began the sentence.
Go with God in grace and in hope
Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 27 2011,00:27) Hi Paladin,
One of two.Quote John 7:16-17 (King James Version) 16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
With Love and Respect,
Wispring
I think this one counts – “Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.” [Mat 16:12]Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 27 2011,00:27) Hi Paladin,
One of two.Quote John 7:16-17 (King James Version) 16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
With Love and Respect,
Wispring
And every parable he ever taught, because – “And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,”[ Mark 4:2]Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 27 2011,00:09) Hi Irene,
I think I can think for myself. I am learning how to understand Greek. I do not blindly accept what Paladin posts. I know how to do research and have been able use the internet as a tool for that for years. I don't buy computers. I build them. I don't buy belief, I allowed to be built in me by reading scriptures, doing research and having it revealed from God. I believe the Kingdom of God is within me just like Jesus said. Not somewhere “up” or “out” there. I was NEVER indoctrinated into any organized church in my life. I believe God blessed me with respect to this. I believe he did so, so that the holy spirit could work more easily through a clean slate, as it were. I have been nothing but honest here in my postings on this web-site as I have been my whole life, sometimes, to my own detriment. I was raised up with “Honesty being the best policy” taught to me from my mother and it is an integral part of my character. I believe God loves everone and I mean everyone just the same. More than anyone can ever know. I am extremely thankful for what Jesus did and still does. I believe even those judged unworthy by God are still loved by him even more than they could know. I believe it is not my responsibility to make those kind of judgements because of what Jesus taught about judging people.
I believe I love you and everyone on Gods' green Earth. I don't believe Jesus was a mere man. Now you know a little more of what I believe. I also love warm summer nights with low humidity. I love teaching people how to play guitar. I love the sound of bird song in the morning. I don't like cold weather. I really like watching tennis. I don't like watching baseball on tv, but, I do like watching it live. I like geology, oceanography, quantum theory, music theory, sherlok holmes books, national geographic magazine, biology, Nikola Tesla, and so many other things that if a book were written to express them all it would fill the entire world. Hi! How are you doing? . This is as much about me as I wish to share at this time. I hope you have a better mental picture of me. I hope we can still be friends.With Love and Respect,
Wispring
Thank you for your words. It is good to know some Greek. We have a Hebrew and Greek Dictionary. I have used it already. But I really at my age (72) don't want to learn another language. If in doubt I will use it. i also know German since i was born there. I was 16 when we come to the USA… I also depend on Georg a lot, who also is German….Oh, we are American Citizens now though. But I have still Cousins in Germany. I talk to one some times. As far as the Kingdom goes, I believe, it is twofold. God's Kingdom is in Heaven, that is why it says flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Almighty God is Spirit, and only Spirit can go there. We won”t. God will come down with the New Jerusalem in the end and only the called by God will live there. Rev. 7 also teaches that there will be a multitude of Beings that stand in front of God's throne. that have washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. They will worship God day and night….Guess what? We started with a NEW slate in 1994, when God called us. It has been so rewarding to understand His Word the Bible. Also I never thought you were;t honest!!!! so we don't believe the same, and who knows who is right or who is wrong. I am leaving it up to God…..I think that you are a very nice person. And I appreciate that. So have a nice day, we have family day today got to go…..
Peace and Love Irene
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