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Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 28 2011,11:29) Mike, The spirit of God is rational and therefore uses both sound in valid reason. If your argument is not based on the same then it is not from God. That is why I pointed out the flaw in the reasoning that led to your conclusion. There is no sense in going further until the rationality of your understanding is addressed.
Use your rationale and reason then to answer the questions then.If you cannot answer, then just say so.
Not being able to answer is not a crime and no one will laugh either.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 29 2011,05:24) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 28 2011,11:29) Mike, The spirit of God is rational and therefore uses both sound in valid reason. If your argument is not based on the same then it is not from God. That is why I pointed out the flaw in the reasoning that led to your conclusion. There is no sense in going further until the rationality of your understanding is addressed.
Use your rationale and reason then to answer the questions then.If you cannot answer, then just say so.
Not being able to answer is not a crime and no one will laugh either.
T8,Quote John 1:30
King James Version (KJV)30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
The same word translated before in John 1:30 is translated “best” in Luke 15:22.
Luke 15:22
Quote King James Version (KJV)
22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:Applying that translation you come up with the hypothesis that John is claiming that after him comes a human being that is higher in rank because he has habitually been better (more righteous) than John.
Mike advance a hypothesis and I tested it and found it wanting. That is part of scientific methodology even if I did not choose to advance my own hypothesis.
Understanding of the letter of Scripture is a social science. Understanding of the spirit of Scripture comes from God.
kerwin
Quote Understanding of the letter of Scripture is a social science. Understanding of the spirit of Scripture comes from God. you are right here ,but like i have told you before :Understanding of the spirit of Scripture comes from Godthis is only true if you LET God do the work and you believe in scriptures the way he has made them available to us in the way they are,because this is the way Christ came forth to us in our world now,
follow the letter and you will get nothing but letters,and words
and you do not answer the questions this is again a diversion is it ??
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 30 2011,00:03) kerwin Quote Understanding of the letter of Scripture is a social science. Understanding of the spirit of Scripture comes from God. you are right here ,but like i have told you before :Understanding of the spirit of Scripture comes from Godthis is only true if you LET God do the work and you believe in scriptures the way he has made them available to us in the way they are,because this is the way Christ came forth to us in our world now,
follow the letter and you will get nothing but letters,and words
and you do not answer the questions this is again a diversion is it ??
Pierre
Pierre,I once again read over Mike’s post and strove to figure out what he was actually trying to say as I agree that the one that is the word made flesh is of a higher rank than John the Baptist because he is more righteous than the later.
If I am correct then in his heart Mike has understood the noun “Word” to symbolize Jesus and so considers that part of English “the him” spoken of in John 1:14 while I see it as speaking of the noun phrase “The Word made flesh”.
Here are examples from English of what I mean are:
Quote I love you is often heard these days. The word “I love you” is the noun phrase and is obviously what is often heard these days.
Quote That he had traveled the world was known by everyone. In this example “he traveled the world” is the noun phrase and is what was known by everyone.
It is obviously not the point that will end the discussion as far as I can tell with my limited grasp of English sentence structure.
Here is my source of the above quotes.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2011,14:18) If I am correct then in his heart Mike has understood the noun “Word” to symbolize Jesus and so considers that part of English “the him” spoken of in John 1:14 while I see it as speaking of the noun phrase “The Word made flesh”.
Kerwin,At least now you are addressing the POINT I was making. My point was never about who was before whom, or who surpassed whom. My point was about whom those words were said. And in one verse, the words are said about “The Word”. And in another, the same words are said about “Jesus”.
I fear your last stand is going to be a brief one, Kerwin. It is my contention that “The Word” is the subject, “became” or “was made” is the verb describing what the subject did, and “flesh” is the object of the verb.
It is your contention that “The Word made flesh” is the noun phrase subject, and “dwelled among us” is the verb. But your theory cannot be because of the conjunction “and” that follows the word “flesh”. You cannot erase the word “and” to make your noun phrase jump directly to the verb “dwelled”.
You want it to say, “The Word made flesh dwelled among us”, but it doesn't. Instead, your noun phrase theory would actually say, “The Word made flesh AND dwelled among us”.
It would be like your sample sentence saying, “I love you AND is often heard these days.”
What now?
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2011,14:18) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 30 2011,00:03) kerwin Quote Understanding of the letter of Scripture is a social science. Understanding of the spirit of Scripture comes from God. you are right here ,but like i have told you before :Understanding of the spirit of Scripture comes from Godthis is only true if you LET God do the work and you believe in scriptures the way he has made them available to us in the way they are,because this is the way Christ came forth to us in our world now,
follow the letter and you will get nothing but letters,and words
and you do not answer the questions this is again a diversion is it ??
Pierre
Pierre,I once again read over Mike’s post and strove to figure out what he was actually trying to say as I agree that the one that is the word made flesh is of a higher rank than John the Baptist because he is more righteous than the later.
If I am correct then in his heart Mike has understood the noun “Word” to symbolize Jesus and so considers that part of English “the him” spoken of in John 1:14 while I see it as speaking of the noun phrase “The Word made flesh”.
Here are examples from English of what I mean are:
Quote I love you is often heard these days. The word “I love you” is the noun phrase and is obviously what is often heard these days.
Quote That he had traveled the world was known by everyone. In this example “he traveled the world” is the noun phrase and is what was known by everyone.
It is obviously not the point that will end the discussion as far as I can tell with my limited grasp of English sentence structure.
Here is my source of the above quotes.
kerwinwe did not look at John 1;1 only but to Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
just remember that Gods interpret his own word ,but you have to preparing your self to accept what he make you understand ,other wise you will never understand what you refuse of knowledge
you still have not answered the questions;
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2011,15:55) Ed, Absolutely I'm glad Keith posts here. I have probably learned more about scripture because of him than anyone else on this site. He is sharp and sharpens me.
But what made you think I was asking a question about Keith?
Eddy?Pierre,
Quote we did not look at John 1;1 only but to Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. I understand that is the passage you use to support that the Word symbolizes Jesus in John 1 but you claim is invalid since it does not follow that the Word in John 1 symbolizes Jesus just because he is called the Word of God in Revelations 19. You can repeat the claim forever and it is still not supported by a rational argument until you explain why it is certain the Word in John 1 symbolizes Jesus.
Word simply means word, whether in John 1 or Revelations 19, though in the later it is used as part of one of Jesus’ many titles.Quote you still have not answered the questions; I thought I had, so please repeat them. Thank you!
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2011,23:53) Pierre, Quote we did not look at John 1;1 only but to Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. I understand that is the passage you use to support that the Word symbolizes Jesus in John 1 but you claim is invalid since it does not follow that the Word in John 1 symbolizes Jesus just because he is called the Word of God in Revelations 19. You can repeat the claim forever and it is still not supported by a rational argument until you explain why it is certain the Word in John 1 symbolizes Jesus.
Word simply means word, whether in John 1 or Revelations 19, though in the later it is used as part of one of Jesus’ many titles.Quote you still have not answered the questions; I thought I had, so please repeat them. Thank you!
KerwinDo you read what you have written,?
You should ,is a title a name ?
And yes you have answered the questions ,thank you
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2011,11:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 28 2011,15:55) Ed, Absolutely I'm glad Keith posts here. I have probably learned more about scripture because of him than anyone else on this site. He is sharp and sharpens me.
But what made you think I was asking a question about Keith?
Eddy?
Hi Mike,Because of this post…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 27 2011,04:32) Worshipping Jesus became virtual, dwelled among us in the virtual world of Heaven Net, and we have seen his glory, the glory of your average Trinitarian. Ed, we have both read his posts for over two years on HN. I want to know if you like him. Do you? Ed, has it now become clear to you who the pronouns “his” and “him” refer to? Can you now answer the question?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgOkay Ed,
Are you saying that because WJ was the subject originally mentioned, and because I obviously did not switch subjects in the middle of the thought, that WJ is the one to whom the pronouns “his” and “him” apply – even though “him” is in a completely different sentence?
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2011,23:53) You can repeat the claim forever and it is still not supported by a rational argument until you explain why it is certain the Word in John 1 symbolizes Jesus.
I'm sincerely hoping that I have made the argument “rational” enough for you now. I will await your response to my last post.Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 30 2011,12:05) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2011,23:53) Pierre, Quote we did not look at John 1;1 only but to Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. I understand that is the passage you use to support that the Word symbolizes Jesus in John 1 but you claim is invalid since it does not follow that the Word in John 1 symbolizes Jesus just because he is called the Word of God in Revelations 19. You can repeat the claim forever and it is still not supported by a rational argument until you explain why it is certain the Word in John 1 symbolizes Jesus.
Word simply means word, whether in John 1 or Revelations 19, though in the later it is used as part of one of Jesus’ many titles.Quote you still have not answered the questions; I thought I had, so please repeat them. Thank you!
KerwinDo you read what you have written,?
You should ,is a title a name ?
And yes you have answered the questions ,thank you
Pierre
Pierre,What I write is clear but given that English is not your first language perhaps to complicated for you.
As simple as I can put it is that you have failed to make a connection between Jesus being called the Word of God in Revelations and the use of the word “Word” in John 1.
Mike,
I was hoping to get back to you about the English wording if certain verses from John 1 but I may not be up to it tonight.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 01 2011,21:14) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 30 2011,12:05) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2011,23:53) Pierre, Quote we did not look at John 1;1 only but to Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. I understand that is the passage you use to support that the Word symbolizes Jesus in John 1 but you claim is invalid since it does not follow that the Word in John 1 symbolizes Jesus just because he is called the Word of God in Revelations 19. You can repeat the claim forever and it is still not supported by a rational argument until you explain why it is certain the Word in John 1 symbolizes Jesus.
Word simply means word, whether in John 1 or Revelations 19, though in the later it is used as part of one of Jesus’ many titles.Quote you still have not answered the questions; I thought I had, so please repeat them. Thank you!
KerwinDo you read what you have written,?
You should ,is a title a name ?
And yes you have answered the questions ,thank you
Pierre
Pierre,What I write is clear but given that English is not your first language perhaps to complicated for you.
As simple as I can put it is that you have failed to make a connection between Jesus being called the Word of God in Revelations and the use of the word “Word” in John 1.
kerwinJn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
sins when can words written or spoken become flesh ??
if you do not understand the scriptures it is because you are not listning to Gods word but to men interpretation and their logic,
God logic is not mens logic ;;in one way ;what God thinks is not what men thinks do you understand this ??
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2011,09:59) Okay Ed, Are you saying that because WJ was the subject originally mentioned, and because I obviously did not switch subjects in the middle of the thought, that WJ is the one to whom the pronouns “his” and “him” apply – even though “him” is in a completely different sentence?
Hi Mike,If you mean: do I believe that you were speaking of Kieth in both cases you would be correct.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Edwardo,
So why don't you use that same understanding for John 1:14-15? From the time “The Word” is mentioned, there is no other subject mentioned. Therefore, just like in my example, the “his” and “him” will both apply to the aforementioned subject.
Just like you knew the “his” and “him” applied to Keith in my example, you should also know that the “his” and “him” apply to the Word in 14-15.
What say you?
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 30 2011,21:14) As simple as I can put it is that you have failed to make a connection between Jesus being called the Word of God in Revelations and the use of the word “Word” in John 1.
John 1 also speaks of the “Word of God”, right Kerwin? Because we know it doesn't speak of anyone else's “Word”, right?So if it is clear to all that John 1 speaks of “the Word of God”, and Jesus is actually called “the Word of God” by the same author, wouldn't you agree that's quite a coincidence?
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