Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[terraricca]

Kerwin

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I am saying that the collective new creation started in the past and has continued up until now.

the new creation is only true for men that comes to be changing their way into the will of God by following Christ ,and so only started after Christ dead ,

but this is not what Paul talks about in Col;1 ;15-16…..Paul talks about who is Christ ,and why he came,and who he his related to all of creation,so that we can see what position and work Christ did ,and so be a example for us to follow,
because unless we submit ourselves to Gods will WE WILL NOT BE SAVED.

[kerwin]

Pierre,

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the new creation is only true for men that comes to be changing their way into the will of God by following Christ ,and so only started after Christ dead ,

God calls the part of the each man that controls the  actions, thoughts, and emotions of the whole their spirit and that spirit falls short of God’s righteousness unless God transforms it by his power, just as he transformed earth into the body of Adam.  That is an act of creation because it is done by the hands of God and not man, even though it is done through and by Jesus who is a man.

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but this is not what Paul talks about in Col;1 ;15-16…..

Paul, like all of the other writers of the New Testament is teaching the new creation as the old creation was settled doctrine.  He is teaching the same thing in Colossians 1:16 as he is not teaching a new religion but instead taught the fulfillment of the one true religion that has been practiced among man since his original creation.

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Paul talks about who is Christ ,and why he came, and who he is related to all of creation, so that we can see what position and work Christ did ,and so be a example for us to follow,

I agree with these words but not necessary with your answers to the questions you left unanswered in them.

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Because unless we submit our own selves to God’s will, WE WILL NOT BE SAVED.

I find that to be true.

[terraricca]

Kerwin

God calls the part of the each man that controls the actions, thoughts, and emotions of the whole their spirit and that spirit falls short of God’s righteousness unless God transforms it by his power, just as he transformed earth into the body of Adam. That is an act of creation because it is done by the hands of God and not man, even though it is done through and by Jesus who is a man.

explain this trough scriptures

[terraricca]

Kerwin

[QUOTEPaul, like all of the other writers of the New Testament is teaching the new creation as the old creation was settled doctrine. He is teaching the same thing in Colossians 1:16 as he is not teaching a new religion but instead taught the fulfillment of the one true religion that has been practiced among man since his original creation.][/QUOTE]

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

explain you comment with those scriptures facing up

[terraricca]

kerwin

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Quote Paul talks about who is Christ ,and why he came, and who he is related to all of creation, so that we can see what position and work Christ did ,and so be a example for us to follow, I agree with these words but not necessary with your answers to the questions you left unanswered in them.

you left unanswered in them?? like what

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2011,23:55)

So we are back to debating which creation is being spoken of in Colossians 1:16

No, we're not.  Paul not only says “ALL things” once, but TWICE.  There is no mention of “only new things”.  So to imply that is what is meant is to write your own version of 1:16.

If YOU want to write your own scriptures like Gene does, then I can't stop you.

Kerwin, the following is a comparison between the REAL scriptures and YOUR re-written scriptures:

John 1:3
Through him (the Word who had the glory of God's only begotten Son – ie: Jesus) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Through him (God's UNKNOWN only begotten Son) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:16
For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

For through him all CERTAIN NEW things were created ARE BEING CREATED: CERTAIN things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all CERTAIN NEW things have been created ARE BEING CREATED through him and for him.

1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things KNOWLEDGE came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things KNOWLEDGE came and through whom we live.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the worlds.

2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made IS MAKING the worlds NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I THE THOUGHT OF ME IN YOUR HEAD had with you before the world began.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

For I have THE SPIRIT INSIDE OF ME HAS come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Philippians 2:6-7
Who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Who, being in the form of God, (AS A HUMAN BEING) did not consider equality with God something to be grasped; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness (EVEN THOUGH HE ALREADY WAS A HUMAN BEING).

Kerwin, you are free to re-write as many scriptures as it takes until you are convinced that your man-made doctrine is securely in place for you.

And since I will continue to take the scriptures as they were written, I trust you won't take offense with me for not coming to the same man-made conclusions that you have come to.

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2011,23:55)

My answer was in the form of explaining to you how God being the Maker of all things fit the context of Ecclesiastes 11:1-6.

Let's see if you're right:

1 Ship your grain across the sea; after many days you may receive a return.
What does verse 1 have to do with the act of creation?

2 Invest in seven ventures, yes, in eight; you do not know what disaster may come upon the land.
How does verse 2 discuss the act of creation?

3 If clouds are full of water, they pour rain on the earth.  Whether a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where it falls, there it will lie.
And verse 3?

4 Whoever watches the wind will not plant; whoever looks at the clouds will not reap.
How about verse 4?  What does this have to do with the act of creation?

5 As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother’s womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.
How about this one?  Does verse 5 speak of the act of creation?  Or does “Maker of all things” refer ONLY to God making bodies in a mother's womb?  (Oh, that's right.  You already said “all things” literally means “ALL things”, right?

6 Sow your seed in the morning, and at evening let your hands not be idle, for you do not know which will succeed, whether this or that, or whether both will do equally well.
And finally, how does verse 6 refer to the act of creation?

I anxiously await your insight into how ANY of these verses concern the act of God creating the heavens, the earth, and ALL things in them.

(Acts 4:24 and Revelation 4:11 are soon to follow, Kerwin.  I hope you are equally prepared to show how the “internally consistent teaching” in those chapters center around “the act of creation”.)

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 17 2011,17:08)

Kerwin God calls the part of the each man that controls the  actions, thoughts, and emotions of the whole their spirit and that spirit falls short of God’s righteousness unless God transforms it by his power, just as he transformed earth into the body of Adam.  That is an act of creation because it is done by the hands of God and not man, even though it is done through and by Jesus who is a man. explain this trough scriptures

Also, explain why the phrase “ALL things” refers to ALL men when not ALL men will be transformed by God's power and become a “new creation”.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 18 2011,05:11)

Kerwin Quote Paul, like all of the other writers of the New Testament is teaching the new creation as the old creation was settled doctrine.  He is teaching the same thing in Colossians 1:16 as he is not teaching a new religion but instead taught the fulfillment of the one true religion that has been practiced among man since his original creation.] Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. explain you comment with those scriptures facing up

Pierre,

I was speaking of the whole of scripture and not just a part.  As the old creation was taught up until the time of John the Baptist then the new creation was taught.  This is because the old creation was bound to death as the result of the sin of Adam and it is only set free by being recreated in, through, and by Jesus Christ.  I assure you it has not been free from corruption since its founding.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 18 2011,05:08)

Kerwin God calls the part of the each man that controls the  actions, thoughts, and emotions of the whole their spirit and that spirit falls short of God’s righteousness unless God transforms it by his power, just as he transformed earth into the body of Adam.  That is an act of creation because it is done by the hands of God and not man, even though it is done through and by Jesus who is a man. explain this trough scriptures

Pierre,

Jesus has been teaching:

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John 8 New International Version (NIV) 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

earlier he had taught:

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John 8 New International Version (NIV) 31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Afterwards he taught

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John 8 New International Version (NIV) 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Paul likewise teaches:

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Romans 6:6 New International Version (NIV) 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

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Romans 6 New International Version (NIV) 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life

Besides this passage states created.

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Ephesians 4 New International Version (NIV) 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

[kerwin]

Mike,

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No, we're not.  Paul not only says “ALL things” once, but TWICE.  There is no mention of “only new things”.  So to imply that is what is meant is to write your own version of 1:16.

Nonsense!

You are contradicting the very idea of only believers dwelling in Christ Jesus with the teaching you hold to.

I find such a teaching unclean.

Why would Jesus ask God that believers would come to be in him if they were already in him as you seem to claim Colossians 1:17 teaches.  

I on the other hand am convinced that Colossians 1:17 testifies that Jesus' prayer in John 17 was answered by God.

[terraricca]

kerwin

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Quote John 8 New International Version (NIV) 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

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Romans 6:6 New International Version (NIV) 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

the above scriptures are in accord;

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John 8 New International Version (NIV) 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

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John 8 New International Version (NIV) 31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

do you see the “IF” you hold to his teaching,this is conditional so not guarantied ,WE HAVE TO HOLD TO IT

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Ephesians 4 New International Version (NIV) 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

so the old way of live is the live without knowing Gods will ,so what Paul says is to now change our way of live in according to Gods will and so become a new self ,but created according to that will ,in a way like Christ says be reborn and the purpose of live then becomes RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS. LIKE GOD HIS

KERWIN SAYS;

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God calls the part of the each man that controls the  actions, thoughts, and emotions of the whole their spirit and that spirit falls short of God’s righteousness unless God transforms it by his power, just as he transformed earth into the body of Adam.  That is an act of creation because it is done by the hands of God and not man, even though it is done through and by Jesus who is a man.

so this explanation of yours is not accurate to scriptures,because all what God did is make us an offer trough Christ  and it is conditional to us to accept it
our acceptance would mean changing our way from sin to the righteousness of God will,and so become a new creation or born again

Ephesians 4

New International Version (NIV)

22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

you still do not explain how God transformed earth into the body of Adam it seams to me you should read the account of Adam creation again and understand it .

by not inventing expressions ,because you do not show truth here ,

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2011,19:56)

Mike, Quote No, we're not.  Paul not only says “ALL things” once, but TWICE.  There is no mention of “only new things”.  So to imply that is what is meant is to write your own version of 1:16. Nonsense! You are contradicting the very idea of only believers dwelling in Christ Jesus with the teaching you hold to. I find such a teaching unclean. Why would Jesus ask God that believers would come to be in him if they were already in him as you seem to claim Colossians 1:17 teaches.   I on the other hand am convinced that Colossians 1:17 testifies that Jesus' prayer in John 17 was answered by God.

kerwin

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

show us how you can split any of the above scriptures that ONLY talks about Christ ,

you are miss guided by a mile ,if not show me the truth about it

Pierre

[kerwin]

Pierre.

Here is verse 17 split up into two clauses.

First clause: He is before all things

Second clause”   in him all things hold together.

I addressed elements of the second clause in my post to Mike and compared it to what Jesus was asking for from God in John 17:23 and other verses.

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John 17 New International Version (NIV) 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Please notice that the congruent words “I in them” and “in him” exist in respectively both in John 17:23 where Jesus is asking that it would come to be in Colossians 1:17 where Paul testifies that it currently is.  

You also have a similar situation with the words “they may be brought to complete unity” and “all things hold together”.

Do you believe Jesus was asking for what already existed or for a new thing?

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 21 2011,01:10)

Pierre. Here is verse 17 split up into two clauses. First clause: He is before all things Second clause”   in him all things hold together. I addressed elements of the second clause in my post to Mike and compared it to what Jesus was asking for from God in John 17:23 and other verses. Quote John 17 New International Version (NIV) 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Please notice that the congruent words “I in them” and “in him” exist in respectively both in John 17:23 where Jesus is asking that it would come to be in Colossians 1:17 where Paul testifies that it currently is.   You also have a similar situation with the words “they may be brought to complete unity” and “all things hold together”. Do you believe Jesus was asking for what already existed or for a new thing?

Kerwin

why do you mixing oranges and apples and declared them all either apples or oranges,in both cases you wrong,

Jn 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Jn 17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
Jn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

look;whom you have sent.and this; I have brought you glory on earth,(what is the glory that Christ brought on earth?) and this;;glory I had with you before the world began.(what was the glory that Christ had before the world began??)

answer those questions ,

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Second clause”   in him all things hold together.

how is it that “ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER” what are the ALL things

and cutting things up and so forgetting the other scriptures does not bring truth to your understanding or explanation,

the context of ;Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
Jn 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

does not agree with you ;Jesus prayer is definitively for his followers those he had and those to come because of the message of the first group ,SO THAT THEY ALL MAY BECOME UNDER GODS WILL ,
those verses have nothing to do with what Jesus was and his in ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

BUT IS THE UNDERSTANDING TO PAUL THAT CHRIST HIS THE SON OF GOD AND WAS ,HIS,AND WILL BE FOREVER THE FIRST OF GODS CREATION,AND THAT ALL THINGS WHERE CREATED FOR HIM AND TROUGH HIM.AND IN THIS WAY CHRIST HAS SUPREMACY.

now if you disagree with this THEN PLEASE SHOW THE SCRIPTURES THAT DO NOT AGREE WITH WHAT i JUST HAVE WRITTEN AND SO WE COULD LEARN THE TRUTH OF GOD NOT OF MEN.

Pierre

[Pastry]

Welcome back guys, good posts Pierre….Peace Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (Pastry @ Oct. 21 2011,21:51)

Welcome back guys, good posts Pierre….Peace Irene

[kerwin]

Pierre,

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why do you mixing oranges and apples and declared them all either apples or oranges,in both cases you wrong,

You are accusing me of applying a figure of speech to a situation in which it does not apply and yet you fail to provide evidence to back up your accusation.  This gives the impression that you have no scriptural evidence of why you do not believe that the second clause in Colossians 1:17 is speaking of the fulfillment of Jesus’ words of prayer in John 17:23 even though the both mention things that are both in Christ and unified by being in Christ?

That makes me curious about the teaching you adhere to as it sounds as if you do not believe that all things have been in and hold together in Christ.   The reason I say that is because if you did then “all things” would also include the things Jesus is asking for in John 17:23.

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look;whom you have sent. Jn 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

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James 1:17 New International Version (NIV) 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

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I have brought you glory on earth,(what is the glory that Christ brought on earth?) Jn 17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.

According to the best fitting definition I read from Strong’s, Jesus’ actions have been causing “the dignity and worth of God to become manifest and acknowledged” even on earth.

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glory I had with you before the world began.(what was the glory that Christ had before the world began??) Jn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Unlike the English translation the Greek manuscript uses different words in verses 4 and 5 that are each translated “glory” in the version you use.  The base idea is “glory” in John 17:5 speaks of a good “opinion, judgment, view” and that judgment is spoken of by “the glorious condition of blessedness into which it is both appointed and promised” that both Jesus Christ and those that believe in him have been entering.  I obtained the definitions from Strong’s through that source separates Jesus and believers into two separate subclasses of the same definition.

Here is an example where the same Greek word is applied to believers in the same sense.

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1 Corinthians 2:7 New International Version (NIV) 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

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how is it that “ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER”

According to Strong’s “All things are “to put together, unite parts into one whole”

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what are the ALL things.

It depends on what you is being spoken about.

[Ed J]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 21 2011,18:09)

Pierre, According to the best fitting definition I read from Strong’s, Jesus’ actions have been causing “the dignity and worth of God to become manifest and acknowledged” even on earth.

Hi Kerwin,

Bingo, you hit the nail on the head.  

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[rebellman]

Hi guys and gals,

I find it very difficult to follow your trains of thought. This thread started out as a discussion of the “incarnation doctrine,” but now seems to be about something else. Unfortunately, for me, I don't read very fast (an error in the teaching methods when I first learned to read) and so it would take far too long for me to read and assimilate 306 pages of banter, but it would be extremely helpful if the subject in these threads stayed the same. I am not familiar with the term “incarnation doctrine” but after picking through these posts, I now have no better idea of what that means than when I started. However, incarnation's primary meaning is: A person who embodies in the flesh a deity, spirit, or abstract quality. Therefore, as applied to “Jesus” he was incarnated whether from a trinitarian or non-trinitarian point of view, so I don't get the debate. John says, “The Word became flesh.” The Word (Logos) as used here is a deity, spirit or abstract quality depending on your point of view and the “Word” was made to become flesh, this is incarnation by anyone's belief, so I'm confused, are you all arguing simply for the sake of arguing, or is there a point to be made that I'm missing?

As to these last few pages of posts, it seems that the debate centers around whether or not one has to do something or act in a certain way in order to be saved and/or whether or not this is a done deal. We are saved by “grace” period. But, because we aren't immediately taken out of this world, we are condemned to walk around in the old corrupt body until we are taken out. However, because the mind is not a static organ, but is both programable and reprogramable, it is the disciple's duty to work towards the reprogramming of the mind. “Be ye not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.” But in time, as we are, this is a process and not necessarily a smooth one, Paul states of himself in Php. 3:1-15 (NIV), “…[7] But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. [8] What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ [9] and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ — the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith… [11] and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. [12] Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. [13] Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, [14] I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.” Once saved by grace, salvation is a done deal, but as Paul goes on to say in 1 Cor. 3:8-15, but specifically, “1 Co 3:11-15 (KJV) “[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

Also, a word to the wise, Strong's is not the ultimate authority as to the meaning of words and/or phrases, very often these must be discerned through the Spirit. (With maybe a little help from Brown, Driver, Briggs and Thayer's lexicons. )

But please people, can we try to stay on point, if only for my sake and my poor reading abilities?

[Author]

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