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Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 12 2011,17:38) Suit yourself Mike. I will not be attacked and remain silent any longer. You can be my friend, and brother, or choose enmity if that's your choice.
Paladin,I never asked you to remain silent, nor would I expect that from anyone on an open forum. What I was trying to convey before was that I simply don't have the time or patience to have a lengthy discussion with you. Trying to get a simple direct answer from you to any question I ask just takes too much out of me.
I offered to debate you about pre-existence, one point at a time with a 250 word limit per post – but you declined the offer.
And I have no problem discussing our disagreements in a friendly manner. There are many people here I disagree with and still remain on friendly terms. Like I told Wispring a long time ago: For better or for worse, I tend to do unto others as they do unto me. Treat me with respect, and I'll do the same to you.
I'm about to respond to your post to Irene in a friendly, respectful manner. If you return like for like, then there will be no end to the respect and the friendliness. I will try my best not to be the one who draws first blood.
mike
Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 12 2011,17:43) Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 13 2011,09:50)
Paladin, you tell me where Jesus ascended to?Eph 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
This is about the resurrection. Jesus descended into the grave then ascended to where he was before, among men.
Not according to the context, Paladin:8 This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men.”9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
Paul is not speaking here about Jesus ascending “back to earth” or “among men“, but “on high” and “higher than all the heavens“.
And in John 6, Jesus said he came down from heaven SEVEN times. And at the very end of that teaching, he asked, “What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!”
He is clearly speaking of ascending back to heaven, where he was before he came down from heaven.
And right smack dab in the middle of this teaching, Jesus even added this little tidbit: “No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.”
Jesus was the only human being who had ever seen the Father…………..because he physically came from the Father's dwelling place, where he had glory alongside the Father, before being made in the likeness of a human being.
Paladin, this is as clear of a teaching as it gets if one is not blinded by a personal doctrine. I simply can't see how it can be said any clearer than this.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2011,18:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2011,14:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2011,14:41) Kathi's version: Then you will know that I am THE GREAT “I AM”……………………and I do nothing of my own authority. Kathi, by WHOSE authority does the Great “I AM” operate?
The Father's authority as always.
So the “Great I Am” isn't quite as in charge of things as you let on, huh? The “Great I Am” only does what someone else AUTHORIZES him to do. That doesn't sound like God Almighty to me, but more like a SERVANT OF God Almighty. Oh, that's right. Jesus IS a SERVANT OF his God, and therefore NOT the “Great I WILL BE”.mike
Mike,
There are different roles within the unity of Jehovah. One is the Father and one is the Son. I consider one of the Son's greatest strengths is that He is perfectly aligned with the Father's will. Would you expect the Father to be getting His authority from the Son. That is not how it works.Any compound unity has levels of authority within it.
Kathi
Kathi, Kathi, Kathi,
Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22)
And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7)
The One whose will is done is God the Father, the Most High God. His Name is Jehovah.
The one who follows the commands of the Most High God is the Servant OF the Most High God, his name is Jesus. He is the Son of, the Lamb of, and a prophet of the Most High God. He is many things TO the Most High God. But he is not the Most High God Himself.
That is why the Servant gets his authority FROM the Most High God.
Now…………….this thread is mostly about the pre-existence of Jesus. It is not a “Jesus is God” thread, nor has it ever been. If Paladin says it's okay, then you can continue this “Jesus is God” argument here. (Perhaps it would give Paladin and me a chance to work as comrades for once.) But until he gives you his okay, please keep your comments focused on whether or not Jesus pre-existed his humanity, (which should give you and I a chance to work as comrades for once.)
peace,
mikeIrene,
Quote Kerwin! God has a Spiritual Body like Jesus, This is not the point we are neither discussing nor does Scripture state that Jesus or God have spiritual bodies.
Quote 1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
I will tell you what is written in Genesis and that is that God created the human body from the earth and it was the Adam that from above that gave life to the body. In this way the first man is of the earth and the second man is from above just as 1 Corinthians 14:47 states.
Quote Genesis 2:7
King James Version (KJV)7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Quote Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Jesus is righteous as God is righteous and so he is an image of the invisible God as he does as God does and speaks as God speaks.
All of that is beside the point which is that Jesus is not the son of God’s body as there is only one God with the bodilly essence of God in that God cannot do evil or be tempted by evil. In this way God is his own Species and there is no other member of his Species.
You should know that Scripture states that:
Quote 1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.When I use Essence I mean:
Quote the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is
Bodily essence is the essence of a body or whatever passes for a body of a particular species of beings.
So why do you believe that all “gods” have the same bodily essence even when you know that only Jehovah has an bodily essence that cannot do evil nor by tempted by evil.
According to scripture
1)God gives each species a bodily essence according to what pleases him.
2)Every created species has its own bodily essence.
3)Every bodily essence is not the same.
4)God is not a created being but is essence has “bodily “essence is timeless.
5)God bodily essence makes impossible for him to do evil or be tempted by evil.So knowing this why do you insist that Jesus is the same Species as God?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2011,11:31) Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 12 2011,17:43) Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 13 2011,09:50)
Paladin, you tell me where Jesus ascended to?Eph 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
This is about the resurrection. Jesus descended into the grave then ascended to where he was before, among men.
Not according to the context, Paladin:8 This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men.”9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
Paul is not speaking here about Jesus ascending “back to earth” or “among men“, but “on high” and “higher than all the heavens“.
And in John 6, Jesus said he came down from heaven SEVEN times. And at the very end of that teaching, he asked, “What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!”
He is clearly speaking of ascending back to heaven, where he was before he came down from heaven.
And right smack dab in the middle of this teaching, Jesus even added this little tidbit: “No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.”
Jesus was the only human being who had ever seen the Father…………..because he physically came from the Father's dwelling place, where he had glory alongside the Father, before being made in the likeness of a human being.
Paladin, this is as clear of a teaching as it gets if one is not blinded by a personal doctrine. I simply can't see how it can be said any clearer than this.
mike
THIS IS TALKING ABOUT THE ASCENTION
“Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.”THIS IS TALKING ABOUT THE DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION
9 “Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?”THIS IS TALKING ABOUT HIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, FOLLOWED FORTY DAYS AND NIGHTS LATER BY HIS ASCENSION.
10 “He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.”THE TWO EVENTS ARE NOT RELATED IN ONE VERSE OTHER THAN TO POINT OUT IT IS THE SAME PERSON DOING BOTH.
THERE ARE FORTY DAYS AND NIGHT BETWEEN THE TWO EVENTS MIKE, DURING WHICH HE WAS SEEN BY HIS DISCIPLES, INCLUDING AT ONE TIME, OVER 500 BRETHREN AT ONCE.
I told you before, The crowds of unbelieving Jews did not see Jesus ascend into heaven so the “sign of Jonah” was not his ascent into heaven, it was his return from the dead. And from the soldiers who were held accountable for his missing body, to the leaders of the Jews, it was his resurrection that got their attention,not his ascent into heaven.
I also pointed out to you that your understanding of “see,” as in “What if ye shall see…” was wrong. You insisted on eye-witness account, but scripture gives an evidence account as “seeing” the resurrected Christ. Your version of “what is truth” was just wrong. Remember your insistance on “blepo” being the standard?
Try a re-read of page 88 post #8 and page 162 post #4. You will see once again, your version of “truth” was simply a misguided opinion.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2011,12:13) [/quote]
Kathi, Kathi, Kathi,Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22)
And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7)
The One whose will is done is God the Father, the Most High God. His Name is Jehovah.
The one who follows the commands of the Most High God is the Servant OF the Most High God, his name is Jesus. He is the Son of, the Lamb of, and a prophet of the Most High God. He is many things TO the Most High God. But he is not the Most High God Himself.
That is why the Servant gets his authority FROM the Most High God.
Very Good Mike. Now if you can get over that little “pre-existance” hurdle, you will be in the right ball park.
Quote Now…………….this thread is mostly about the pre-existence of Jesus. It is not a “Jesus is God” thread, nor has it ever been. If Paladin says it's okay, then you can continue this “Jesus is God” argument here. (Perhaps it would give Paladin and me a chance to work as comrades for once.) Accepted Mike. You said in a recent post that you offered to debate me with 250 word limits per post, (page 108 post #10) perhaps you forgot I offered to debate you and never heard back from you much earlier. Way back in page 96 post #5.
I offer you the same offer I made Irene, Mike, to debate beginning in the old testament with Gen 17:1; Exo 3:14, move through some Messianic prophecies, make a comment or two on the use of “monos” applied to God, and only after establishing some hermeneutical and exegetical principles, move into the realm of new testament study, beginning with Paul's writings, and finishing in John's gospel.
The new covenant did not begin in John 1:1, it began in Genesis, with God's covenant with Abraham and his seed, with the Messianic promises. The fulfillment of that covenant promise is what comprises the new testament; it is a record of the new covenant, originally made with Abraham.
That is why any debate should begin in the old testament. It establishes the background for new testament material.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 13 2011,17:01) Irene, Quote Kerwin! God has a Spiritual Body like Jesus, This is not the point we are neither discussing nor does Scripture state that Jesus or God have spiritual bodies.
Quote 1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
I will tell you what is written in Genesis and that is that God created the human body from the earth and it was the Adam that from above that gave life to the body. In this way the first man is of the earth and the second man is from above just as 1 Corinthians 14:47 states.
Quote Genesis 2:7
King James Version (KJV)7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Quote Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Jesus is righteous as God is righteous and so he is an image of the invisible God as he does as God does and speaks as God speaks.
All of that is beside the point which is that Jesus is not the son of God’s body as there is only one God with the bodilly essence of God in that God cannot do evil or be tempted by evil. In this way God is his own Species and there is no other member of his Species.
You should know that Scripture states that:
Quote 1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.When I use Essence I mean:
Quote the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is
Bodily essence is the essence of a body or whatever passes for a body of a particular species of beings.
So why do you believe that all “gods” have the same bodily essence even when you know that only Jehovah has an bodily essence that cannot do evil nor by tempted by evil.
According to scripture
1)God gives each species a bodily essence according to what pleases him.
2)Every created species has its own bodily essence.
3)Every bodily essence is not the same.
4)God is not a created being but is essence has “bodily “essence is timeless.
5)God bodily essence makes impossible for him to do evil or be tempted by evil.So knowing this why do you insist that Jesus is the same Species as God?
You are correct Kerwin, in asserting that Jesus is not the same “species” as God.The Gen 6 account of the sons of God went in unto the daughters of men and begat a race of …..(ready for this?)
MEN. They were not “Gods” – that would have made them the same species as their fathers, but they were MEN.Spirit is not a species of man. Nor is flesh a specie of God.
The specie Man has a spirit, but that is because after God created man, (i.e., after man was completed) God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
“Living soul” is not the species to which we belong. We are of the species MAN. I am not even sure there is a “species” God, since he is the only one so designated. And species is a plural designation.
Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 11 2011,20:30) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2011,17:38) I agree but I will also point out that you are making a similar error it is clear that a Son is of the same kind as his physical Sire and since Jehovah is of the physical God kind then Jesus would also be of the physical God kind just like Jehovah. But Jehovah is not of a physical nature, for “God is spirit.” Jesus is not “Spirit” but is flesh, of his father David.
Quote A similar flaw does not exist in the tenet that Jesus is the Son of God’s Spirit (Essential Character) even as Adam and Eve were children of the essential character of God before they fell. But it was Adam and Eve who disobeyed God, in that their “essential character” was able to sin, which God's
“essential character” cannot do. Sin is not the offspring of righteousness.
KERWIN! This is what your friend said too, and that is what we were also discussing….Jehovah, God the Most High God ALONE, His name ALONE…. I stress ALONE, because of Kathi believing Jehovah is the Compound Unity of Jesus and His Father….
Again Jehovah does not have a physical body….The only thing I don't agree with Paladin on that Jesus never was of the Spiritual kind before He came to earth to become of the physical kind…. He was both. So He might have preeminence….,Col. 1:15-18…… Peace Irene.Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 13 2011,23:15) Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 11 2011,20:30) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2011,17:38) I agree but I will also point out that you are making a similar error it is clear that a Son is of the same kind as his physical Sire and since Jehovah is of the physical God kind then Jesus would also be of the physical God kind just like Jehovah. But Jehovah is not of a physical nature, for “God is spirit.” Jesus is not “Spirit” but is flesh, of his father David.
Quote A similar flaw does not exist in the tenet that Jesus is the Son of God’s Spirit (Essential Character) even as Adam and Eve were children of the essential character of God before they fell. But it was Adam and Eve who disobeyed God, in that their “essential character” was able to sin, which God's
“essential character” cannot do. Sin is not the offspring of righteousness.
KERWIN! This is what your friend said too, and that is what we were also discussing….Jehovah, God the Most High God ALONE, His name ALONE…. I stress ALONE, because of Kathi believing Jehovah is the Compound Unity of Jesus and His Father….
Again Jehovah does not have a physical body….The only thing I don't agree with Paladin on that Jesus never was of the Spiritual kind before He came to earth to become of the physical kind…. He was both. So He might have preeminence….,Col. 1:15-18…… Peace Irene.
You are correct in this Irene. The idea of a “compound unity” is only good where it applies, such as a bunch of grapes;
many grapes, one bunch. The problem becomes obvious when some try to apply it to God. It is a simple misapplication of terminology, based on a wrong evaluation of God being a triune deity. They think that makes him a “compound unity.”Of course God doesn't think he is. But that doesn't seem to matter to them.
Good post.
Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 13 2011,02:47) THIS IS TALKING ABOUT THE ASCENTION
“Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.”
I agree.Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 13 2011,02:47) THIS IS TALKING ABOUT THE DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION
9 “Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?”THE TWO EVENTS ARE NOT RELATED IN ONE VERSE OTHER THAN TO POINT OUT IT IS THE SAME PERSON DOING BOTH.
How do you KNOW that, Paladin? Consider these points:1. John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.What does it mean that he ascended except that he first DESCENDED? Where did Jesus ascend TO? That is also where he descended FROM.
2. It is clear to me that you understand “lowest parts of the earth” to mean Hades, or the place that Jesus went when he died. But consider:
Psalm 139:15 NKJV ©
My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.Do you also think that King David was skillfully woven together by God in Hades? Of course not. The contrast in Ephesians 4:9 is not between the surface of earth and Hades. Rather, it is a contrast between the earth itself and heaven.
This is NETBible's translation:
Ephesians 4:9 NET ©
Now what is the meaning of “he ascended,” except that he also descended to the lower regions, namely, the earth?Consider also this:
Isaiah 44:23 Young's Literal Translation
Sing, O heavens, for Jehovah hath wrought, Shout, O lower parts of earth, Break forth, O mountains, with singing, Forest, and every tree in it, For Jehovah hath redeemed Jacob, And in Israel He doth beautify Himself.Are you seeing a pattern yet? From the standpoint of mankind, God's creation consists of the “higher parts of the heavens”, and the “lower parts of the earth”. The earth itself is the “lower parts”, Paladin – as you can see it contrasted to “the heavens” in the scripture above.
Now, there is plenty of evidence for a serious student of scripture to understand that Paul was saying Jesus first descended TO the earth before he ascended back to heaven FROM the earth. You agree that Eph 4:8 and 4:10 refer to Jesus' ascension to heaven. But you have it in your mind that verse 9 refers to a descension to the grave and a following ascension back to the surface of the earth. Again, I ask you: WHY? Is there a particular scripture that makes you think “the lower regions of the earth” refer to “UNDERNEATH the earth”? Is there a scripture that I'm unaware of that DIRECTLY supports your understanding?
3. John 6:38 NIV
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.This is the “descent”, Paladin. The words “I have come down from heaven” mean “I have DESCENDED from heaven”. Jesus says these words 6 more times during this same teaching in John 6.
And he sums up this teaching with:
John 6:62 NIV
62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!Now, Jesus has told us SEVEN TIMES where he descended FROM in this SAME conversation. So when he speaks of ASCENDING TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE, it can mean nothing other than the place from which he said SEVEN TIMES that he DESCENDED FROM.
You WANT it to refer to Jesus descending into Hades, and then ascending back to the surface of the earth. But at this stage in Jesus' ministry, the surface of the earth is not a place he would have referred to as “where I was BEFORE”. Since he was still on the surface of the earth, he would have said “to where I am now”, or something to that effect.
Plus, he would have had to mention DESCENDING FROM the surface of the earth in order to mention ascending from below the surface of the earth. For example, he would have said, “What if you see me DESCEND FROM WHERE I AM NOW, and then ASCEND BACK TO WHERE I AM NOW?”
Paladin, I sincerely hope that you read and research this post with a completely open mind. I hope you will realize that the only reason you understand Ephesians 4:9 the way you do is because you MUST understand it that way – for that is the ONLY way it will fit into what you've already decided to be the truth.
peace,
mikeQuote (Paladin @ Sep. 13 2011,03:04) Very Good Mike. Now if you can get over that little “pre-existance” hurdle, you will be in the right ball park.
I've got Paladin saying the above. And I've got Kathi saying, “It's very good that you believe in the pre-existence of Jesus, Mike. Now if you can just get over that little 'Trinity' hurdle, you will be in the right ball park.”You guys make me think of the old Stealer's Wheel song, “Stuck in the Middle with You”.
“I've got clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right; here I am, stuck in the middle with TRUTH”!
Irene,
Quote KERWIN! This is what your friend said too, and that is what we were also discussing….Jehovah, God the Most High God ALONE, His name ALONE…. I stress ALONE, because of Kathi believing Jehovah is the Compound Unity of Jesus and His Father…. I believe that Jehovah is the one and only true God. I question whether you have been deceived by the evil one as your doctrine is inferring that Jesus is a second true God or that God is just an angel among many other angels; but with the superior rank of the Most High God.
Quote Again Jehovah does not have a physical body…. I have already pointed out that I use the word physical represent the same idea in relation to the spiritual body you chose to believe in as it does in the flesh body I know exists. The bottom line is that you claim that Jehovah has a body and the child of an individual’s body is of the same species as the sire.
Quote The only thing I don't agree with Paladin on that Jesus never was of the Spiritual kind before He came to earth to become of the physical kind…. He was both. So He might have preeminence….,Col. 1:15-18…… I have no idea why you believe that an individual with either 50% spirit body and 50% flesh body or 100% spirit body and 100% flesh body would have preeminence. Colossians 1:15-18 certainly does not support that belief.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2011,11:35) Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 13 2011,03:04) Very Good Mike. Now if you can get over that little “pre-existance” hurdle, you will be in the right ball park.
I've got Paladin saying the above. And I've got Kathi saying, “It's very good that you believe in the pre-existence of Jesus, Mike. Now if you can just get over that little 'Trinity' hurdle, you will be in the right ball park.”You guys make me think of the old Stealer's Wheel song, “Stuck in the Middle with You”.
“I've got clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right; here I am, stuck in the middle with TRUTH”!
That's the problem you need to work on Mike, thinking those with whom you disagree are either jokers on one hand or clowns on the other.No wonder you are so messed up.
Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 14 2011,22:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2011,11:35) Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 13 2011,03:04) Very Good Mike. Now if you can get over that little “pre-existance” hurdle, you will be in the right ball park.
I've got Paladin saying the above. And I've got Kathi saying, “It's very good that you believe in the pre-existence of Jesus, Mike. Now if you can just get over that little 'Trinity' hurdle, you will be in the right ball park.”You guys make me think of the old Stealer's Wheel song, “Stuck in the Middle with You”.
“I've got clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right; here I am, stuck in the middle with TRUTH”!
That's the problem you need to work on Mike, thinking those with whom you disagree are either jokers on one hand or clowns on the other.No wonder you are so messed up.
Hi Paladin,I often wonder why people spend so much of their time arguing about these (Preexistence and Trinity).
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2011,05:47) Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 14 2011,22:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2011,11:35) Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 13 2011,03:04) Very Good Mike. Now if you can get over that little “pre-existance” hurdle, you will be in the right ball park.
I've got Paladin saying the above. And I've got Kathi saying, “It's very good that you believe in the pre-existence of Jesus, Mike. Now if you can just get over that little 'Trinity' hurdle, you will be in the right ball park.”You guys make me think of the old Stealer's Wheel song, “Stuck in the Middle with You”.
“I've got clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right; here I am, stuck in the middle with TRUTH”!
That's the problem you need to work on Mike, thinking those with whom you disagree are either jokers on one hand or clowns on the other.No wonder you are so messed up.
Hi Paladin,I often wonder why people spend so much of their time arguing about these (Preexistence and Trinity).
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
To anyone who has a heartfelt belief system, whether based upon truth or error, it is very real and precious to their life.Just as a baby will learn to love adaptive parents as thier biological parents, then fall apart when theylearn they have been adapted, so a person deeply interactive with a belief system about thier God takes if very personal. And they should.
I never question the zeal of the one in error, only the truth of his doctrine or belief system. They love their God just as much as I love my God, and should be treated as the image of God in which they were created.
There is so much error, much of it deliberate long before you and I were even born, that it makes me sick to see what scholarship has wrought upon the souls of Godfearing men and women. All to promote one man above another, developing over 10,000 denominations and splinter groups, and still developing and growing.
And some still cry “It doesn't matter what you believe just so you believe. I weep for my brothers ans sisters for their unbelief, and I weep for my own inability to reach them with truth of scripture. I do not know how any person can teach without tears.
edj
the trinitarian do not argue with it, they just declare all other views as heretic ,or some go even further declaring Jesus God himself
so that now we have father and son being the same ,Paladin I think is one of those ,
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,06:25) edj the trinitarian do not argue with it, they just declare all other views as heretic ,or some go even further declaring Jesus God himself
so that now we have father and son being the same ,Paladin I think is one of those ,
Pierre
Are you sure you are on the correct thread?There is no way you could get that from my posts.
Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 15 2011,14:44) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,06:25) edj the trinitarian do not argue with it, they just declare all other views as heretic ,or some go even further declaring Jesus God himself
so that now we have father and son being the same ,Paladin I think is one of those ,
Pierre
Are you sure you are on the correct thread?There is no way you could get that from my posts.
Paladinso you are not a believer in the trinity or the preexisting of Christ
and not believe that Christ is God or the same beings
well if any of those apply to you please clarify what is you believe ,
and sure I will apologize about it to you ,
Pierre
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KERWIN! This is what your friend said too, and that is what we were also discussing….Jehovah, God the Most High God ALONE, His name ALONE…. I stress ALONE, because of Kathi believing Jehovah is the Compound Unity of Jesus and His Father….I believe that Jehovah is the one and only true God. I question whether you have been deceived by the evil one as your doctrine is inferring that Jesus is a second true God or that God is just an angel among many other angels; but with the superior rank of the Most High God.
Kerwin! What makes you think that I don't believe that Jehovah is anything else but the Most High
God.??? I never said that… Kathi is the one who believes otherwise….. Jehovah also don't have a physical body, no matter what the case….You need to read slowly….And to point fingers is uncalled for here…. Satan is the deceiver and reading slowly is a must……. Irene
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