Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[Ed J]

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 07 2011,23:15)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 07 2011,14:15) Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 07 2011,10:07) Irene, when will you recognize that God identified the day Jesus was begotten as the day he became the son of God? “This day have I begotten thee” [psa 2:7] is quoted in Acts 13:33 referencing the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus was “declared to be the son of God by the resurrection from the dead.” [Rom 1:4] Jesus was declared to be the first and only one born from the dead. He is the firstborn of creation, only after the resurrection and the new creation. You really need to get away from the spoonfed doctrines and creeds and focus on the chronology of the writings of the disciples. Hi Paladin, Are you saying Hebrews 1:6 is referring to the resurrection, rather than Jesus' birth? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Heb.1:6) God bless Ed J Jesus came to the Hebrew nation; i.e., the people of Abraham, the Jews. He sent his disciples to preach the gospel- beginning at Jerusalem; “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” [Luke 24:47]: Then proceeding into Judaea, then Samaria, Then to the uttermost parts of the earth;” But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” [Acts1:8] The word used in Heb 1:6 is not kosmos, nor is it aiaon. It is “oikoumene” which is a reference to the Gentile world, as compared to the world of the Jews. It is a political reference, not spiritual, nor physical, as there are not two physical worlds, and if there were, they would be two kosmos', not “oikoumene.” Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the oikoumene [world], he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. This was at least forty days after Jesus was designated   “firstbegotten” from the dead.

Hi Paladin,

OK, you say 40 days after the resurrection, why does
it then say:   “let all the angels of God worship him”?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 07 2011,23:22)

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 07 2011,23:07) Quote Of course I believe that Jesus was conceived by Gods Holy Spirit and became man….. That has never been an Issue with me, or others….What we do debate is does Jesus existed before He became a man…. Kerwin, I said this….. Quote I have no idea what you believe the word “conceive” means but I believe it means to come to contain a developing human individual from the time of implantation to the birth.   An individual does not exist before they begin to develop. You said that…You come to the wrong conclusion in what I said……Jesus did became a man by Maria….. But before He did, He existed as a Spirit Being…..You say an individual dos not exist before they develop…..which is true  as far as Humans are concerned, but Jesus existed again before He became a man. Scriptures say so…..He was in the form of God… Phl 2:6   Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:   Kerwin, IN THE FORM OF GOD…..and what form is God?  A Spirit Being…. and that is what who became Jesus is and was before He became a man… Phl 2:7   But made himself of no reputation, AND TOOK ON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN….then He became a man…. First He was in the form of God, and then He was made in the likeness of men… Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;   HE IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD… Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   AGAIN HE WAS THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE… You also did nt address John 1:1-14, yet when it comes to Rev. 19 you believe it is Jesus….It is the same being…..and He will come again to strike the nations with the wrath of God….. Only the truth will be taught…..Peace Irene To “conceive” is to “cause to be.” Prior to the conception by the Holy Spirit as recorded in Mat 1:20, Jesus existed only in prophecy. That which is conceived of the Hloly Spirit is Spirit. Jesus' spirit was the offspring of the Holy spirit. [John 3:6] Jesus' body was “made of a woman, made after the law. [Gal 4:4] Just as Eve was made from Adam's rib. Jesus did not pre-exist his begettal, any more than Eve preceeded the rib of Adam. Remember, Adam is called the “first man” Adam. And Paul says the first man Adam preceeded the second Adam.

Hi Paladin,

Are you saying Jesus didn't have a spirit of his own?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 06 2011,14:49)

Kathi!  We are all Human Beings, but we are not all the same, just like Jesus is mot the same then His Father, that is what is important….. You want to make Jesus the same then His Father who by Jesus own words is greater then He is….. You will never convince me that Jesus is called Jehovah, that is the Father name ALONE……Peace Irene

Irene,
Yes, we are all human beings and equally human at that. Just like Jesus and the Father are both deity beings and equally deity beings.

We are separate persons as human beings but that doesn't negate that we are all equally human.

The Father and the Son are separate persons as deity beings but that doesn't negate that they are equally deity.

The father of a son, whether they are human or deity, will be greater merely because he is the father, not because of having a greater nature.

Can you see this?

Kathi

[Paladin]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2011,02:54)

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 07 2011,23:15) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 07 2011,14:15) Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 07 2011,10:07) Irene, when will you recognize that God identified the day Jesus was begotten as the day he became the son of God? “This day have I begotten thee” [psa 2:7] is quoted in Acts 13:33 referencing the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus was “declared to be the son of God by the resurrection from the dead.” [Rom 1:4] Jesus was declared to be the first and only one born from the dead. He is the firstborn of creation, only after the resurrection and the new creation. You really need to get away from the spoonfed doctrines and creeds and focus on the chronology of the writings of the disciples. Hi Paladin, Are you saying Hebrews 1:6 is referring to the resurrection, rather than Jesus' birth? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Heb.1:6) God bless Ed J Jesus came to the Hebrew nation; i.e., the people of Abraham, the Jews. He sent his disciples to preach the gospel- beginning at Jerusalem; “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” [Luke 24:47]: Then proceeding into Judaea, then Samaria, Then to the uttermost parts of the earth;” But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” [Acts1:8] The word used in Heb 1:6 is not kosmos, nor is it aiaon. It is “oikoumene” which is a reference to the Gentile world, as compared to the world of the Jews. It is a political reference, not spiritual, nor physical, as there are not two physical worlds, and if there were, they would be two kosmos', not “oikoumene.” Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the oikoumene [world], he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. This was at least forty days after Jesus was designated   “firstbegotten” from the dead. Hi Paladin, OK, you say 40 days after the resurrection, why does it then say:   “let all the angels of God worship him”? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Because the angels only worshipped God until God told them to worship this man who served as sacrifice for the sins of the world. God raised Jesus to his own right hand, and made him above all angels.

That is the meaning of a statement found in Heb – Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.[1:4]

First, he was made better than the angels, which means he did not begin better than the angels.

Second, he was given a more excellent name than they, therefore did not have it to begin with.

He was a man, born of woman, lived and died a man, was raised from the dead, then raised to the position of being extoled and made very high, even to the position of second in heaven, having angels commanded to worship him. If he was God, they would already be worshipping him.

[Paladin]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 08 2011,03:04)

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 07 2011,23:22) Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 07 2011,23:07) Quote Of course I believe that Jesus was conceived by Gods Holy Spirit and became man….. That has never been an Issue with me, or others….What we do debate is does Jesus existed before He became a man…. Kerwin, I said this….. Quote I have no idea what you believe the word “conceive” means but I believe it means to come to contain a developing human individual from the time of implantation to the birth.   An individual does not exist before they begin to develop. You said that…You come to the wrong conclusion in what I said……Jesus did became a man by Maria….. But before He did, He existed as a Spirit Being…..You say an individual dos not exist before they develop…..which is true  as far as Humans are concerned, but Jesus existed again before He became a man. Scriptures say so…..He was in the form of God… Phl 2:6   Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:   Kerwin, IN THE FORM OF GOD…..and what form is God?  A Spirit Being…. and that is what who became Jesus is and was before He became a man… Phl 2:7   But made himself of no reputation, AND TOOK ON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN….then He became a man…. First He was in the form of God, and then He was made in the likeness of men… Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;   HE IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD… Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   AGAIN HE WAS THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE… You also did nt address John 1:1-14, yet when it comes to Rev. 19 you believe it is Jesus….It is the same being…..and He will come again to strike the nations with the wrath of God….. Only the truth will be taught…..Peace Irene To “conceive” is to “cause to be.” Prior to the conception by the Holy Spirit as recorded in Mat 1:20, Jesus existed only in prophecy. That which is conceived of the Hloly Spirit is Spirit. Jesus' spirit was the offspring of the Holy spirit. [John 3:6] Jesus' body was “made of a woman, made after the law. [Gal 4:4] Just as Eve was made from Adam's rib. Jesus did not pre-exist his begettal, any more than Eve preceeded the rib of Adam. Remember, Adam is called the “first man” Adam. And Paul says the first man Adam preceeded the second Adam. Hi Paladin, Are you saying Jesus didn't have a spirit of his own? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Nope. I am saying he was begotten of the Holy Spirit. He became the offspring of the Holy Spirit, made of a woman.

God supplies what spirit we have, as he is the father of all spirits.

“And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?” [Num 16:22]

“Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,” [Num 27:16]

“Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?” [Heb 12:9]

Jesus himself pointed out a difference between our flesh and our spirit. “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.[Mat 26:41]

“To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” [Heb 12:23]

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”

The spirit of man is from God, some submit to the man, some do not. That is why, with the naturaL MAN, the flesh must continually strive with his spirit to submit to the ordinances of God.

Read Rom 6 to see the effect of baptism upon the natural man.

Then read Rom 8 to see how the Holy Spirit interacts with our SPIRIT to help us in our time of need –

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:” [Rom 8:9-16]

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Even Paul understood this – “Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. ” [Gal 6:18]

[Pastry]

Kathi!   I know what you are after….You will not convince me that both are equal and have the compound unity of Jehovah….. That is for the last time, Kathi is Jesus Fathers name only….. that is according to Scriptures.   Yes, Jehovah God has given Jesus immortality, but that does not make Jesus
equal to His Father….. No one ever will….

1Cr 11:3   But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

Peace Irene

[Paladin]

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 08 2011,07:42)

Kathi!   I know what you are after….You will not convince me that both are equal and have the compound unity of Jehovah….. That is for the last time, Kathi is Jesus Fathers name only….. that is according to Scriptures.   Yes, Jehovah God his given Jesus immortality, but that does not make Jesus equal to His Father….. No one ever will…. 1Cr 11:3   But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. Peace Irene

Very Good Irene.

[kerwin]

Irene,

Quote

You said that…You come to the wrong conclusion in what I said……Jesus did became a man by Maria….. But before He did, He existed as a Spirit Being…..You say an individual dos not exist before they develop…..which is true  as far as Humans are concerned, but Jesus existed again before He became a man.

Quote

Luke 1:36 King James Version (KJV) 36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

If you read Luke 1:36 above then you will find it states that Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist in her inner parts just like Maria did Jesus and yet you do not believe John the Baptist was also an angel changed into an one –celled human being that would grow and develop into a neonatal at birth.   In fact the idea that an angel changed into a one-celled human being in Maria’s inners part is not a fulfillment of God’s promise to David as that promise is that David would have his son to sit on his throne forever.   And Jesus is only the son of David if he is flesh  of David’s flesh.  So the idea that an angel changed into a human being does not in any way fit the prophecy of the Christ.

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Scriptures say so…..He was in the form of God…

Your evidence is:

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Phl 2:6   Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

Scripture does state that Jesus has the physical form of God but God has not physical form as he is not a created being and all that is physical is always created.   If instead of looking at it from the physical viewpoint you look at it from the viewpoint of one that is seeking righteousness then you will realize the form that is import to teach you in righteousness is the form on God’s character.  I assure you that Jesus is always righteous and holy as God is holy and as we are called to be.

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:Kerwin, IN THE FORM OF GOD…..and what form is God?  A Spirit Being…. and that is what who became Jesus is and was before He became a man…

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John 4:24 King James Version (KJV)  24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Scripture instructs us to worship God in the Spirit of Love which is also known as the Spirit of Righteousness and Holiness.  We are to worship God in this way because God is the Spirit of Love.  God does not want us to worship him in Spirit being

God is one of a kind as he is the only God.  There is no other God as God will not share being God with others.

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Phl 2:7   But made himself of no reputation, AND TOOK ON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN….then He became a man…. First He was in the form of God, and then He was made in the likeness of men… As Jesus has continuously been righteous as God is righteous he did not behave arrogantly but instead he meekly agreed with the plan of God and became a servant.  God created him in the likeness of a human being, thus not an angel. 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

And after God created him in the likeness of a human being Jesus was found to be in the fashion of a man.  Being the servant he was he humbled himself even further as  he obeyed God’s plan and sacrificed himself to  a death of pain and suffering  even though he did not deserve it; as he did not sin since he was and remains in the form of God .

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9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

God rewarded for him continuously maintaining the form of God, even when undergoing death and suffering, by appointing him as King of everything in heaven and on earth.

Thus Philippians 2 is a scripture useful for teaching in righteousness as Jesus is our example who pioneered our faith.

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Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;   HE IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD…

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Revelation 3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 14`And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness — the faithful and true — the chief of the creation of God;

You are correct that he is the chief of creation just as Philippians 2:9 teaches us God appointed him to that position.

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Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   AGAIN HE WAS THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE…

You are correct that he is the firstborn in supremacy just as God appointed him to be and John likewise testifies to in Revelations 3:14.

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You also didn’t address John 1:1-14, yet when it comes to Rev. 19 you believe it is Jesus….It is the same being…..and He will come again to strike the nations with the wrath of God….. Only the truth will be taught…..Peace Irene

I have addressed it previously but I will address it again.  The Word in John 1:14 is not a being, though it is expressed in the actions of both God and the Spirit of God.  It is also displayed by the Jesus, the human being, after the entity known as the Spirit of God comes and dwells in him.  Jesus bears the title the Word of God in Revelations 19 because he fully expresses the Word of God by his words and actions.

[terraricca]

Kerwin

Quote

I have addressed it previously but I will address it again. The Word in John 1:14 is not a being, though it is expressed in the actions of both God and the Spirit of God. It is also displayed by the Jesus, the human being, after the entity known as the Spirit of God comes and dwells in him. Jesus bears the title the Word of God in Revelations 19 because he fully expresses the Word of God by his words and actions. ————– Your Fellow Student, Kerwin

you have the understanding of the flesh and so will never understand the whole scriptures ,you believe your own refflection of what you believe with your man made logic,

find your soul and talk to it ,

Pierre

[Pastry]

Quote

If you read Luke 1:36 above then you will find it states that Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist in her inner parts just like Maria did Jesus and yet you do not believe John the Baptist was also an angel changed into an one –celled human being that would grow and develop into a neonatal at birth. In fact the idea that an angel changed into a one-celled human being in Maria’s inners part is not a fulfillment of God’s promise to David as that promise is that David would have his son to sit on his throne forever. And Jesus is only the son of David if he is flesh of David’s flesh. So the idea that an angel changed into a human being does not in any way fit the prophecy of the Christ.

Kerwin! You are more concerned what John was before He became a Human being, then to look at the Scriptures that say Jesus is the firstborn of all creation ad the beginning of the creation of God…..

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You are correct that he is the firstborn in supremacy just as God appointed him to be and John likewise testifies to in Revelations 3:14.

Let me see wht other translation say

King James Version (KJV)
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

New Living Translation (NLT)
Rev 3:14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning [fn] of God's new creation:

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the [fn]Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

English Standard Version (ESV)
Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

You see that I have done this before and found that six translators say :the beginning opf the creation of God,” and two say the ruler….

But we also have other Scriptures in John that say He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Fatehr that sent Him….

Jhn 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Jhn 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Jhn 6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”

Jhn 6:42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?”

Jhn 6:43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves.

Jhn 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me–

Jhn 6:46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

Jhn 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

Jhn 6:48 I am the bread of life.

Jhn 6:49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.

Jhn 6:50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

Jhn 6:52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

Jhn 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Jhn 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Jhn 6:56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

Jhn 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.

Jhn 6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread [fn] the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Jhn 6:59 Jesus [fn] said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

Jhn 6:60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”

Jhn 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this?

Jhn 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

How many times did Jesus say He came down from Heaven?
Kerwin, you can believe this or not, it does not matter to me,,,, but I do believe Jesus when He said He came down from Heaven, and I am not going to call Him a liar….
Irene

[Paladin]

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 08 2011,17:57)

Let me see wht other translation say New Living Translation (NLT) Rev 3:14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning [fn] of God's new creation:

WoW! Wonder where THAT came from? The beginning of God's new creation.

[terraricca]

Paladin

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Rev;3;14 ……..  The beginning of God's new creation.

to me what is said in revelation seems to be the extension of what Paul says in Col 1…… because after Christ dead all seems to be renewed that is for the true believers ,the fulfillment of their faith ,God also say “I make all thing anew “this will be in the new earth and new heaven ,

something to look forward too

Pierre

[Pastry]

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 08 2011,22:41)

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 08 2011,17:57) Let me see wht other translation say New Living Translation (NLT) Rev 3:14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning [fn] of God's new creation: WoW! Wonder where THAT came from? The beginning of God's new creation.

Paladin!  What you missed, Paladin that there are six different translations of Rev.3:14, but most say what the King James version says….  You can get all those translations from the Blue Letter Bible on the Internet….. Anyone can get it…..Here are a few more

Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odice'a write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.  

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Rev 3:14 `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness — the faithful and true — the chief of the creation of God;  

Webster's Bible (WEB)
Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  

New King James Version (NKJV)

Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans [fn] write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:  

You would probably rather go with the NLT version since that fitrs better your theology….  
..
But YOU too should look at what the Bible teaches us really about the firstborn of all creation, the beginning of all creation.  The form Jesus was in before He became a man…. All that has convinced me, that I am on the right track….And then we have Jesus own words, that say, He came down from Heaven to do His Fathers will….

Phl 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

Phl 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men.

And He said this

Jhn 6:33 “For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”  
Jhn 6:34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”  
Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.  
Jhn 6:36 “But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.  
Jhn 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.  
Jhn 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.  
Jhn 6:39 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.  
Jhn 6:40 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”  
Jhn 6:41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”  
Jhn 6:42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?”  
Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.  
Jhn 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.  
Jhn 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' [fn] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned [fn] from the Father comes to Me.  
Jhn 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.  
Jhn 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me [fn] has everlasting life.  
Jhn 6:48 “I am the bread of life.  
Jhn 6:49 “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.  
Jhn 6:50 “This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.  
Jhn 6:51 “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”  
Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us [His] flesh to eat?”  
Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.  
Jhn 6:54 “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.  
Jhn 6:55 “For My flesh is food indeed, [fn] and My blood is drink indeed.  
Jhn 6:56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.  
Jhn 6:57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.  
Jhn 6:58 “This is the bread which came down from heaven–not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”  
Jhn 6:59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.  
Jhn 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard [this], said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”  
Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?  
Jhn 6:62 “[What] then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
Jhn 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”  

Pierre also gave you the Scriptures in Col. 1 to show you…..
I said this to Kerwin, whatever you want to believe, I can't change you, but I believe what Jesus told John, and I believe Him….Peace Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 08 2011,05:41)

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 08 2011,17:57) Let me see wht other translation say New Living Translation (NLT) Rev 3:14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning [fn] of God's new creation: WoW! Wonder where THAT came from? The beginning of God's new creation.

Obviously from a man's imagination, since the word “new” is not in any Greek ms.

It is interesting that a Trinitarian translation would add that word, however.

[kerwin]

Irene,

Quote

Let me see what other translation say

I agree that Rev 3:14 is hard to understand as the Greek word used in the original manuscripts is approximately similar to the English word “leader” and therefore has different meanings according to the context.  Never the less I believe we both agree that Jesus is the chief of both the new and old creation and some translators do translate the Greek word to “chief” or a synonym of it which also agrees with that understanding of ours.

The same understanding we agree on is true of Colossians 1:14 and Colossians 1:15 states why Jesus is the firstborn even going on to state in verse 16 that all of verse 15 occurred that the Son would be supreme in all things.

[kerwin]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2011,09:13)

Irene, Quote Let me see what other translation say I agree that Rev 3:14 is hard to understand as the Greek word used in the original manuscripts is approximately similar to the English word “leader” and therefore has different meanings according to the context.  Never the less I believe we both agree that Jesus is the chief of both the new and old creation and some translators do translate the Greek word to “chief” or a synonym of it which also agrees with that understanding of ours. The same understanding we agree on is true of Colossians 1:14 and Colossians 1:15 states why Jesus is the firstborn even going on to state in verse 16 that all of verse 15 occurred that the Son would be supreme in all things.

Irene,

I am continuing from my earlier post.

Quote

Kerwin!  You are more concerned what John was before He became a Human being, then to look at the Scriptures that say Jesus is the firstborn of all creation ad the beginning of the creation of God…..

I was simply following your reasoning about what conception means to its absurd conclusion, assuming you believe that conception means an angel is changed to a human being within the inner parts of a woman.  Perhaps you should rethinking your tenet on what “conceive” means in relation to both Jesus and John the Baptist and then share those beliefs with others that they may tested.

Quote

But we also have other Scriptures in John that say He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father that sent Him….

Quote

Matthew 21 King James Version (KJV) 25The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

Jesus asked these men where the baptism of John the Baptist came from and they stated they did not know.  I am bolder as I am convinced it came from heaven.  In the same way I am convinced that Jesus came from heaven as he is a prophet and even more.  Don’t you believe the same?

[Pastry]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2011,14:13)

Irene, Quote Let me see what other translation say I agree that Rev 3:14 is hard to understand as the Greek word used in the original manuscripts is approximately similar to the English word “leader” and therefore has different meanings according to the context.  Never the less I believe we both agree that Jesus is the chief of both the new and old creation and some translators do translate the Greek word to “chief” or a synonym of it which also agrees with that understanding of ours. The same understanding we agree on is true of Colossians 1:14 and Colossians 1:15 states why Jesus is the firstborn even going on to state in verse 16 that all of verse 15 occurred that the Son would be supreme in all things.

Kerwin! That all depends what you mean by New Creation? There are six translation that says the same then what the KJV does, and that I believe….. It also goes with Col. 1:15 where it says that Jesus is the firstborn of all creatures…

What I find interesting is the same translation of the NLT translates Rev. 3:14 as the new creation, but look what it does with Col. 1:15

New Living Translation (NLT)
Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation, [fn]
While the KJV says
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Now all trinitarians believe that Jesus always existed, which I don't believe…..Hiw can a Son be in existing at the same time then His Father? That would not make Him a Son…..

Yes, Kerwin we do agree on Col. 1:14….
KLT
Col 1:14 who purchased our freedom [fn] and forgave our sins
KJV
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Peace and Love to you Irene

[Paladin]

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 09 2011,04:53)

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 08 2011,22:41) Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 08 2011,17:57) Let me see wht other translation say New Living Translation (NLT) Rev 3:14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning [fn] of God's new creation: WoW! Wonder where THAT came from? The beginning of God's new creation. Paladin!  What you missed, Paladin that there are six different translations of Rev.3:14, but most say what the King James version says….  You can get all those translations from the Blue Letter Bible on the Internet….. Anyone can get it…..Here are a few more Revised Standard Version (RSV) Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odice'a write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.   Young's Literal Translation (YLT) Rev 3:14 `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness — the faithful and true — the chief of the creation of God;   Webster's Bible (WEB) Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;   New King James Version (NKJV) Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans [fn] write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:   You would probably rather go with the NLT version since that fitrs better your theology….   .. But YOU too should look at what the Bible teaches us really about the firstborn of all creation, the beginning of all creation.  The form Jesus was in before He became a man…. All that has convinced me, that I am on the right track….And then we have Jesus own words, that say, He came down from Heaven to do His Fathers will…. Phl 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,   Phl 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men.   And He said this Jhn 6:33 “For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”   Jhn 6:34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”   Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.   Jhn 6:36 “But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.   Jhn 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.   Jhn 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.   Jhn 6:39 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.   Jhn 6:40 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”   Jhn 6:41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”   Jhn 6:42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?”   Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.   Jhn 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.   Jhn 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' [fn] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned [fn] from the Father comes to Me.   Jhn 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.   Jhn 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me [fn] has everlasting life.   Jhn 6:48 “I am the bread of life.   Jhn 6:49 “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.   Jhn 6:50 “This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.   Jhn 6:51 “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”   Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us [His] flesh to eat?”   Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.   Jhn 6:54 “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.   Jhn 6:55 “For My flesh is food indeed, [fn] and My blood is drink indeed.   Jhn 6:56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.   Jhn 6:57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.   Jhn 6:58 “This is the bread which came down from heaven–not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”   Jhn 6:59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.   Jhn 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard [this], said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”   Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?   Jhn 6:62 “[What] then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? Jhn 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”   Pierre also gave you the Scriptures in Col. 1 to show you….. I said this to Kerwin, whatever you want to believe, I can't change you, but I believe what Jesus told John, and I believe Him….Peace Irene

Nope! Not in the Greek in that verse.

Scripture teaches that God the father alone created all things.

Jesus created all things new.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 09 2011,13:12)

Scripture teaches that God the father alone created all things. Jesus created all things new.

Actually, scripture teaches that God alone created all things, and that He did that through His only begotten Son.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that only NEW things were created through Jesus.  The words used are “ALL THINGS”, whether we're talking about the Word (John 1:3), the Son of God (Colossians 1:16), or our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6).  In fact, Col 1:16 goes on to list some of those “ALL THINGS” as all of the visible and invisible things, both in heaven and on earth.

Here's even MORE confirmation:

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Now, for one to assume that the word “ALL” really means “NEW” in the latter part of this sentence, they must also then assume that the word “ALL” means “NEW” in the first part.  And they must therefore conclude that ONLY NEW things came from our one God, the Father.

BUT…………………..if one was to agree that ALL things, (not just NEW things), came from the Father, they must then sensibly acknowledge that whatever things the “ALL” encompassed in the first part of the sentence are also encompassed by the word “ALL” in the latter part.  

In other words, the “ALL THINGS” that came from the Father are the same exact “ALL THINGS” that came through our Lord, Jesus Christ.

mike

[Pastry]

Quote

Nope! Not in the Greek in that verse. Scripture teaches that God the father alone created all things. Jesus created all things new.

Paladin! You pick on one Scripture, and that is not even so…… God through Jesus created all…..
And what Scripture says that Jesus created all things new?

New Living Translation (NLT)
Col 1:16 for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see— such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him.

Even the translation you like says it…..
Irene

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