Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

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August 22, 2011 at 7:06 pm#256655

Paladin

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 21 2011,13:48)

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 21 2011,16:40)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 21 2011,04:21)

Paladin

Quote

Pierre

So, tell me Pierre, do you believe brimstone is in heaven?

What about hail?

Floodwater?
I await your response.

where did angel come from ?, or where the Law came from that Moses received ?,where is the soul of man comes from ?

where is all of creation comes from ?,where is God ?

where is Gabriel the angel from ? where his the house of God and Christ ? where is the house that Christ when to prepare for his apostles ?

I also would like that you respond to me

Pierre

That might be the way you are used to playing games Pierrem but I do not. You see, on my board, when I ask a question, I expect participants to participate, not usurp the board.

If you don't have an answer, it is because you see the trap you make for yourself.

Of you only want to cause confusion, keep asking your own questions instead of responding to the post.

I will not play the game.

Paladin

you think I like to play your game,?

no I do not,

you response came from what i told Gene ,

and you are sharing is view and do not believe in the preexistence of Christ ,so if you read all my comments you will see I am not playing at all,

and that is why I have given the answer you have read ,

do you think I do not know that God uses his own creation to punish men for their corruption ,and so uses water, volcanic ash,storms, and so on,,,,,

and that all those item are in the earth sphere,

but that was not what I was talking about ,I was talking about what I have answered you,

Pierre

Thank you for your response.

You are correct in that those items are all within the earth's atmosphere. Yet scripture tells us they “come down out of heaven.”

It is a reference to “by the authority of heaven,” who is “God.”

When Jesus said he “came down from heaven” he was telling them he is here by the authority of God himself, not from Eden like all other men. God had told Adam and Eve to be one flesh and replenish the earth. Jesus is not here by that proccess, though all those who are in his geneology are, he is the single exception. He came from heaven, not Eden.

Just exactly in the same way, Jesus says “As I am not of this world, so also my disciples are not of this world.”

John 17:6 “I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

August 23, 2011 at 12:57 am#256682

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 23 2011,13:06)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 21 2011,13:48)

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 21 2011,16:40)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 21 2011,04:21)

Paladin

Quote

Pierre

So, tell me Pierre, do you believe brimstone is in heaven?

What about hail?

Floodwater?
I await your response.

where did angel come from ?, or where the Law came from that Moses received ?,where is the soul of man comes from ?

where is all of creation comes from ?,where is God ?

where is Gabriel the angel from ? where his the house of God and Christ ? where is the house that Christ when to prepare for his apostles ?

I also would like that you respond to me

Pierre

That might be the way you are used to playing games Pierrem but I do not. You see, on my board, when I ask a question, I expect participants to participate, not usurp the board.

If you don't have an answer, it is because you see the trap you make for yourself.

Of you only want to cause confusion, keep asking your own questions instead of responding to the post.

I will not play the game.

Paladin

you think I like to play your game,?

no I do not,

you response came from what i told Gene ,

and you are sharing is view and do not believe in the preexistence of Christ ,so if you read all my comments you will see I am not playing at all,

and that is why I have given the answer you have read ,

do you think I do not know that God uses his own creation to punish men for their corruption ,and so uses water, volcanic ash,storms, and so on,,,,,

and that all those item are in the earth sphere,

but that was not what I was talking about ,I was talking about what I have answered you,

Pierre

Thank you for your response.

You are correct in that those items are all within the earth's atmosphere. Yet scripture tells us they “come down out of heaven.”

It is a reference to “by the authority of heaven,” who is “God.”

Just exactly in the same way, Jesus says “As I am not of this world, so also my disciples are not of this world.”

Paladin

I would accept your view ,but in your view there is a if a big IF

IF Christ would not have been born from the power of God then I would accept your view,and you would be right ,if you apply your reasoning to John the baptist I would agree,but never to Christ the son of God ,as you can read in scriptures God has only one son though there are many angels called the sons of God ,

but with Christ it is not the same ,he is the only begotten son this mean that he is the only member in creation that God himself created and all others comes trough Christ,

only Mary took part as a human to Christ conception the other part came from the action of GOD

so your explanation does not fit with Christ and so I have to rejected.

Pierre

August 23, 2011 at 1:49 am#256686

mikeboll64

Blocked

Excellent answer and post, Pierre.

We can understand many scriptures different ways. But the way we decide to understand ONE of them must fit into ALL of the rest of them.

Just like John was a man sent “FROM GOD”. There is no other scripture explaining that John was at one time WITH God in heaven, so we understand “FROM GOD” a certain way.

But when Jesus says “I came down from heaven”, and hints that he will ascend to WHERE HE WAS BEFORE, and then DOES THAT VERY THING, we must then come to a very different understanding of Jesus coming “FROM GOD” and John coming “FROM GOD”.

Anyway, I liked your post and your reasoning.

peace,
mike

August 23, 2011 at 1:54 am#256687

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2011,08:34)

Miek ……………not really what is it you want to know Mike?

peace and love………………………………….gene

Hi Gene,

Well, I guess if you're done with the Root and Branch thing, it's time for you to show me your second “Jesus couldn't possibly have pre-existed his flesh” scripture. Because Gen 3:15, even if it IS about Jesus, doesn't prohibit Jesus from being a spirit being BEFORE he became a seed of Eve.

So what's the next scripture?

peace,
mike

August 23, 2011 at 1:58 am#256688

mikeboll64

Blocked

For the non-preexisters to consider:

All things were created through the Word. (John 1:3)

Those same exact things were created through God's only begotten Son. (Hebrews 1:2, Colossians 1:13-16)

Those same exact things were created through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

This is undeniable evidence that the Word IS the Son of God who IS our Lord Jesus Christ.

peace,
mike

August 23, 2011 at 2:16 am#256693

terraricca

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2011,19:49)

Excellent answer and post, Pierre.

We can understand many scriptures different ways. But the way we decide to understand ONE of them must fit into ALL of the rest of them.

Just like John was a man sent “FROM GOD”. There is no other scripture explaining that John was at one time WITH God in heaven, so we understand “FROM GOD” a certain way.

Anyway, I liked your post and your reasoning.

peace,
mike

Mike

August 23, 2011 at 5:07 am#256745

kerwin

Participant

Paladin,

It is written that:

Quote

1 Corinthians 2

King James Version (KJV)

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

From this we know that it is true that no one but the Spirit of God has seen God. It is clear that Jesus could not see God unless the Spirit of God revealed the Father to him.

Quote

John 1

King James Version (KJV)

18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So since no one but the Spirit of God can know the deep things of God then it follows that the only begotten spoken of in John 1:18 is the Spirit of God.

Quote

Matthew 11:27

King James Version (KJV)

27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

We are told in this passage that “all” things are given to Jesus and thus they are by the Spirit of God. Jesus in turn reveals them to others.

August 23, 2011 at 6:31 am#256763

Ed J

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2011,12:49)

Excellent answer and post, Pierre.

We can understand many scriptures different ways. But the way we decide to understand ONE of them must fit into ALL of the rest of them.

Just like John was a man sent “FROM GOD”. There is no other scripture explaining that John was at one time WITH God in heaven, so we understand “FROM GOD” a certain way.

Anyway, I liked your post and your reasoning.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike,

I too liked Pierre's response to Paladin.

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 23, 2011 at 9:42 am#256769

Paladin

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 23 2011,11:57)

Paladin

I would accept your view ,but in your view there is a if a big IF

but with Christ it is not the same ,he is the only begotten son this mean that he is the only member in creation that God himself created and all others comes trough Christ,

only Mary took part as a human to Christ conception the other part came from the action of GOD

so your explanation does not fit with Christ and so I have to rejected.

Pierre

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: 23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Psalm 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. 20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: 24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also [kagw prwtotokon theesomai auton] I [will make] him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. [theesomai = future middle indicative form of verb “Tithemi”- to assign, make, anoint someone something]

When was Jesus declared to be God's son?
Rom 1:3-4
“Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

And when did God declare he begot Jesus?
Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

And when was this day?
“Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Acts 13:26-33

God made promises to Jesus in prophecy, but he made them to Abraham And to David in person. And Jesus was their offs-pring. “….thy seed after thee.”

Jesus was “in the loins” of Abraham, Judah, David, and all the geneology in the Messianic line. Or don't you believe the scriptures? No “if” involoved, no “Big IF” simply scripture unfolded in history.

August 23, 2011 at 7:17 pm#256775

Pastry

Participant

Quote

From this we know that it is true that no one but the Spirit of God has seen God.

Kerwin! What are you saying here? The Holy Spirit is part of God, and not a separate part, that you can say He…. That is part of the trinity doctrine… You believe in that doctrine? The Holy Spirit is not a He but it….

It is talking about Jesus who is the only one that has seen the Father…He is the only begotten Son and not Gods Holy Spirit…. wow are you adding to Scriptures…. and leaving out “Son”…. very conveniently….Irene

August 23, 2011 at 8:02 pm#256777

Paladin

Participant

Pastry,Aug. wrote:

The Holy Spirit is part of God, and not a separate part, that you can say He…. The Holy Spirit is not a He but it….

John 14:26 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

That word “whom” references a person, “which” would be used to reference a thing or an “it.”

August 23, 2011 at 8:06 pm#256778

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 24 2011,03:42)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 23 2011,11:57)

Paladin

I would accept your view ,but in your view there is a if a big IF

but with Christ it is not the same ,he is the only begotten son this mean that he is the only member in creation that God himself created and all others comes trough Christ,

only Mary took part as a human to Christ conception the other part came from the action of GOD

so your explanation does not fit with Christ and so I have to rejected.

Pierre

And when did God declare he begot Jesus?
Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

God made promises to Jesus in prophecy, but he made them to Abraham And to David in person. And Jesus was their offs-pring. “….thy seed after thee.”

Paladin

it seems to me that you are mixing many things ,
so let me first clear something ,

ALL SCRIPTURES ARE WRITTEN FROM THE PART OF GOD FOR THE ONLY PURPOSE TO BRING ALL MEN INTO HIS RECONCILIATION , SINS THE BEGINNING OF THE FALL OF MEN IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN.

THIS SAID ;so we have historic books to tell what was happen and what was foretold could be seen to the readers,

also the phases or steps that God uses to bring all this to a closer is seen in the development of the years and the written word of God,so prophecy is one of the major thing in the wisdom of God so that only in righteous can see and understand ,and so being re comfort,and encourage for the strengthening of their faith.

now your comments are directly related to the fore shadow of Christ and his bride in an allegorical way,

so to use those scriptures for any other purpose can only lead you away from the truth of God and so showing your misguided heart ,just like the religion leaders of the time of Christ ,

true knowledge of God and his son is perceived trough the heart and the spirit of the word of God

Pierre

August 23, 2011 at 9:54 pm#256784

Pastry

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 24 2011,07:02)

Pastry,Aug. wrote:

The Holy Spirit is part of God, and not a separate part, that you can say He…. The Holy Spirit is not a He but it….

That word “whom” references a person, “which” would be used to reference a thing or an “it.”

Paladin, you are not addressing all of Kerwin's post to you….

Quote

From this we know that it is true that no one but the Spirit of God has seen God. It is clear that Jesus could not see God unless the Spirit of God revealed the Father to him.

God through Jesus created all

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Because of John 1:14 we should know that The Word of God is who became Jesus

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word of God became flesh…. He is the only begotten of the Father…. We do know that the Holy Spirit is part of Jehovah God….. God cannot become flesh or even look on flesh. So He sent His only begotten Son into the world to save the world.
And who is that??? Jesus….
He also will come back as The Word of God. And this Scripture goes into detail who The Word of God is…

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

I hope you and Kerwin will finally understand who The Word of God is….Kerwin believes that it is in Rev. 19, but not in John 1:1-14 that He should learn…. because it is the same being…. who came down from Heaven to do His Fathers will.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Peace Irene

August 23, 2011 at 10:19 pm#256786

Paladin

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 24 2011,08:54)