Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ July 19 2011,09:26)

Paladin! This is what my Husband is saying

To all

Did Jesus call scholars and teachers?

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were “”unlearned”” and “”ignorant”” men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

And here is what Paul had to say about “”wise”” men;

1Cr 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many “”wise”” men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:

You don't do your intelligence justice nor honor, as you argue about petty things, while ignoring how foolish you appear.
Whose example do you follow?

Understanding of Gods Word comes “ONLY” from God.

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit (mind) of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the “””Spirit of God”””.

You don't appear to me as having the “Spirit of God”.

Peace Irene

That's funny Irene.

I have been saying basically the same thing for months, now3, and you have been taking the scholars side.

You keep telling me “the translators wouldn't be wrong” and “all those Greek teachers” must be right.”

Now you tell me I have not the spirit because I challenge those same scholars.

July 19, 2011 at 8:40 am#252945

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2011,10:23)

Paladin

Quote

If I understand this “Incarnation” trinity theory, you are telling me that Jesus preexisted with the Father in eternity, then “incarnated” by the Holy spirit in the womb of Mary.

Scripture tells a far different story. At least three times in three different accounts, we are told that Jesus is the seed of Adam or the woman (Eve), in Messianic prophecies.

We are told of the seed promise beginning with Gen 3:15, where the woman is told “Thy seed” so the incarnation begins with this woman of prophecy. Then her progeny carry that seed, and passed it on through several generations till Abraham is specifically mentioned by name, as one in a long line of the “seed carriers.” He is promised that “through thy seed” all nations will be blessed. It is similar to the promise first made to “the woman” of Gen 3:15

this is your main purpose to prove to all that Christ did not preexisted prior to his birth on earth,
and so use grammar to try to prove scriptures truth ,but what is that scriptures tells us ?

1Co 2:4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power,
1Co 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

2Ti 2:14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

Ro 4:21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.
Ro 4:22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Ro 4:23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,
Ro 4:24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
Ro 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

I do not see anything else than what happen between you and Mike is the friction on the preexistence of Christ ,that you deny and what Mike supports and in so debating grammar becomes the judge of the truth ?can this be ? NO

the truth of God is not based on grammar even if the written word as been written in a language any one ,the word of God does not rely on men's understanding but to men receiving the understanding of God,

no one will be saved on the bases of understanding Greek or Hebrew ,this would similar to be circumcised or following the law with animal offerings,

so if you are wise and have knowledge of godly understanding show it within scriptures,not grammar,but true knowledge and wisdom from above,

Pierre

Do you still not understand?

Do you think Satan does not know the ways of men?

Satan convinced men to re-arrange the scriptures so that they begin with Mathew, and give Peter authority he never had, to decide what is supposed to be understood as “orthodox doctrine.”. Then he placed John 1:1 near the front so people will define “the logos of God” before Paul ever gets a chance to be heard.

Do you not see that God gave us his stamp of disapproval when he caused a thousand years of “dark ages” the same year trinity doctrine became “orthodox,” and it lasted until the bible came off the printing press, giving the scriptures into the hands of ignorant and unlearned men.

If education is believed to be so bad, according to you and Irene, why then was the first thing that challenged me “what are your credentials?” Where did you go to school?

July 19, 2011 at 10:19 am#252947

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2011,13:24)

[/quote]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2011,10:59)

Ed wrote:

Hi Paladin,

Thanks for the in-depth explanation.
I'm learning more about the Greek, but
I still know more about Hebrew vernacular.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hey Ed,

Were you able to find Paladin's answer in all that? I was wondering if he was claiming that the imperfect tense of the Greek word “echo” in John 17:5 prohibited Jesus from asking for the return of a glory he had in the past.

What was his answer? IS that what he was claiming or not?

peace,
mike

Quote

Hi Mike,

I'm glad you asked me to help translate Paladins comments to your understanding of them.
Here is the part of the post that seems to be the point that concerns you most…

Quote (Paladin @ July 18 2011,19:30)

Here's your English language question:

Quote

(by Mike I'm assuming) The action WAS contiuous? Or the action will keep on continuing until the end of time?

A careful reading of the post will show the answer was already given – i.e., the “imperfect” references action that was continuous.

If the action was continuous, how is it in any way involoved with “forbidding” anything at all in the english translation? It is not involved with permitting or forbidding. That is strictly your own speculative excercise.

So why the question Mike? It was not based on the Greek, because the Greek was already published for all to see. You were trying to change the meaning from Greek imperfect, which references continuous action, to English

past tense where you then could apply the consequence of your question i.e., “Or the action will keep on continuing until the end of time?”

Quote

So Mike, based on this quote, I would say…

1) Paladins answer is based on him not believing in any preexistence, for Christ or anyone else.

And you would be wrong. I believe in the pre-existence of God, his angels, and wisdom.

Quote

2) He believes the Greek is referencing a present point that continues, as in ongoing into the future.

Wrong again. It is a time that to the english reader, is “past tense” to the writer. But since the Greek tense is “imperfect” it references a condition that continues at least till the point referenced as Jesus' prayer, when he asks “Now, glorify me…” and in the same prayer, records “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:”

So we know from Jesus' own prayer, that he both asks for something that to him is in the timeframe of “now,” and that he shares this glory with the apostles while it is still “now” to the prayer of Jesus.

Quote

3) This does not exclude any past, because that is not what is being cited in this passage (according to Paladin).

Wrong! It is according to the Greek.

Quote

4) the issue of ongoing does not have any connection to the concept of eternal (as a non-ending ongoing concept).

You got that from Paladin's post?

July 19, 2011 at 10:29 am#252948

Pastry

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ July 19 2011,19:31)

Quote (Pastry @ July 19 2011,09:26)

Paladin! This is what my Husband is saying

To all

Did Jesus call scholars and teachers?

And here is what Paul had to say about “”wise”” men;

1Cr 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many “”wise”” men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:

You don't do your intelligence justice nor honor, as you argue about petty things, while ignoring how foolish you appear.
Whose example do you follow?

Understanding of Gods Word comes “ONLY” from God.

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit (mind) of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the “””Spirit of God”””.

You don't appear to me as having the “Spirit of God”.

Peace Irene

That's funny Irene.

I have been saying basically the same thing for months, now3, and you have been taking the scholars side.

You keep telling me “the translators wouldn't be wrong” and “all those Greek teachers” must be right.”

Now you tell me I have not the spirit because I challenge those same scholars.

That is what my Husband said, and not I….Irene

July 19, 2011 at 11:11 am#252950

Participant

Hi Paladin,

I believe the essence of what I said matches pretty closely to what you said even though you say 'wrong'; let me explain why I say yes.

Here I say…

Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2011,13:24)

the issue of ongoing does not have any connection to the concept of eternal (as a non-ending ongoing concept).

And here you say…

Quote (Paladin @ July 19 2011,21:19)

the Greek tense is “imperfect” it references a condition that continues at least till the point referenced as Jesus' prayer

In both of these quotes a continuation is mentioned. Did you not also say… 'continues at least till the point'?
Please explain to us all just exactly how you think these ideas differ?

Here I say…

Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2011,13:24)

This does not exclude any past, because that is not what is being cited in this passage (according to Paladin).

And here you say…

Quote (Paladin @ July 18 2011,19:30)

It is not involved with permitting or forbidding.

Please explain to us all just exactly why you believe these ideas differ?

Here I say…

Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2011,13:24)

He believes the Greek is referencing a present point that continues, as in ongoing into the future.

And here you say…

Quote (Paladin @ July 19 2011,21:19)

the Greek tense is “imperfect” it references a condition that continues at least till the point referenced as Jesus' prayer, when he asks “Now, glorify me…” and in the same prayer, records “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:”

So we know from Jesus' own prayer, that he both asks for something that to him is in the timeframe of “now,” and that he shares this glory with the apostles while it is still “now” to the prayer of Jesus.

Please explain to us all just exactly why you believe these (highlighted) ideas differ?

Here I say…

Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2011,13:24)

Paladins answer is based on him not believing in any preexistence, for Christ or anyone else.

And here you say…

Quote (Paladin @ July 19 2011,21:19)

I believe in the pre-existence of God, his angels, and wisdom.

Did you somehow think anyone else went beyond humans? …that is your contention, is it not?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 19, 2011 at 11:24 am#252953

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ July 19 2011,13:50)

Mike! Before Paladin, we only concerned ourselves with the English translation of the Bible. Now since Paladin it is not good enough any longer? And what makes Paladin an expert in the Greek? He seems to know it better then the Translators do. I find it rather uncalled for. I too check my German Bible at times, and it lines up with the King James. Pretty words don't impress me. Not many wise men now are called. And Paladin things He is wiser then many translators.
And all this for one Scripture. What about other Scriptures that prove the preexisting of Jesus? Are they all wrong?
I am going to depend on Gods Holy Spirit, God has shown us many truths……
Peace and Love Irene

So you are happy with over ten thousand denominations, all following your “scholars,” Irene? Every translator is a scholar, or did you not know that?

And every one who starts a new denomination, starts it because of his faith in scholars.

I have never claimed scholarship, nor bragged on scholastic accolades, nor spoken of school honors or degrees; yet I am accuse, by you, Irene, of somehow claiming to be better than all the scholars and wise men.

I wonder why the double standard? It seems to apply to me, and to no one else.

July 19, 2011 at 11:32 am#252954

Pastry

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2011,14:37)

Quote (Pastry @ July 18 2011,20:50)

Mike! Before Paladin, we only concerned ourselves with the English translation of the Bible. Now since Paladin it is not good enough any longer?

Hi Irene,

Kangaroo Jack got me looking into the original languages and lexicons over two years ago………….almost two full years before I ever heard the name Paladin.

Kathi uses these sources. So does Shimmer. And Keith. And t8. And Kerwin, Marty, Gene, Ed, etc.

Tell me Irene, why does the King James Version have the word “Godhead” in three verses, yet that word is not found in the NIV?

See? THIS is the kind of stuff I want to KNOW – not just take some translator's word for.

When scripture said that all things were created BY Jesus, that didn't make sense to me. So I researched into it and found out that the Greek word “dia” could be translated as either “by” OR “through”. So it is then up to the English translator to teach us that all things are either BY Jesus, (as if he is the Creator Himself), or THROUGH Jesus.

Now since YOU are armed with this KNOWLEDGE, and can therefore translate 1 Cor 8:6 for yourself, will you translate it to say that all things are BY Jesus? Or will you translate it to say that all things are THROUGH Jesus? Which of those two words fits better with scripture as a whole? The one that might be misconstrued to mean that JESUS is our Creator? Or the one that makes it clear that GOD created THROUGH Jesus?

See Irene? Now it's YOUR choice. You no longer have to just take the trinity slanted translator's word for it.

Irene, this is only one of the HUNDREDS of scriptures I've researched into for similar reasons. By the way, there is no known Greek word for “Godhead” in the scriptures. This was simply the concoction of the biased Trinitarian scholars who translated the KJV. Which is why no reputable translation today has the word “Godhead” in Acts 17:29, for example. Not even the New King James Version.

If YOU and Pierre are happy with the way things are, then more power to you. But it's unfair and unecessary to scold Paladin and me for trying to gain a better understanding instead of being locked into whatever a biased scholar tells us the scripture says.

peace and love,
mike

Mike! Ok but you never said you used the original transcript, until Paladin…. As far as through Jesus God created all, I always understood that. Almighty God is the creator and He used His Son to do so. Colossians says by Him, while John says through Him…. But the meaning is the same.
Also in Romans 1:20 were the Godhead is used, and in the NIV it is not, but the meaning of that verse is the same.
Then I looked up Col. 2:9 in the KJV Godhead is used and in the NIV it is not, but again the meaning is just about the same. My King James only uses Godhead two times, in the Concordance.

It was the Monks that translated the New Test. and they were trinatarians, so why if they wanted to mislead us, can I prove the trinity wrong?
And the most important to me is, that it is Gods Holy Spirit that has to reveal the truth to you. Whether in the Greek or English or any language.
Why is it that so many don't understand, going by the English translation, the preexisting of Jesus? Because God has to reveal it to us……And on God I depend……
Peace and Love Irene

July 19, 2011 at 11:41 am#252955

Pastry

Participant

Quote

And every one who starts a new denomination, starts it because of his faith in scholars.

No Paladin, we don't go by any denomination, we don't belong to any Church, since 1994…. I don't depend on any one but Gods Holy Spirit……In God do I trust. If I am wrong, He will show me. Maybe not right the way, but in time…..And He has….Sorry if I offended you, but no matter what is being said, you always come across of knowing it better…. that is my point….
Peace and Love Irene

July 19, 2011 at 12:34 pm#252958

shimmer

Participant

Terrarica, now see that's what I mean. Your posts were spoken from the heart. Don't mean to interrupt here – just saying.

Bless you.

I haven't been following what's happening here. Sorry for interrupting.

July 20, 2011 at 2:40 am#253025

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ July 18 2011,23:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2011,14:52)

Hi Ed,
So then the answer is “NO”? I'm no more sure from YOUR words than I was from his.

Are you trying to say, “NO Mike, he was NOT saying echo prohibited Jesus from asking for the return of a past glory” ?

Hi Mike,

Ha ha ha ha..

No, that's what you're saying; but I can agree with that synopsis.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ahhh……………but now that he has responded to YOUR post after ignoring my simple questions to get to the bottom of it, it seems you were wrong?

You said:

Quote

3) This does not exclude any past, because that is not what is being cited in this passage (according to Paladin).

He said:

Quote

Wrong! It is according to the Greek.

So it seems that he DOES think the imperfect tense of “echo” prohibits Jesus from speaking of a glory he had in the past.

I wonder why he just didn't say that. It doesn't, by the way – just so you know Ed.

Thanks for trying to help. I'm anxious to see the merry-go-round ride he's about to take you on now.

peace,
mike

July 20, 2011 at 2:58 am#253028

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ July 18 2011,23:18)

so what you have learned is it from you and your efforts
that you have come to the true understanding?
if you say yes then it is for your own glory that you have worked,

So for WHOSE glory did YOU read your twelve translations, Pierre? For WHOSE glory do YOU defend the scriptures from the onslaught of the trinity doctrine? For WHOSE glory do YOU defend the pre-existence of our Lord?

Was it not by YOUR efforts that you learned to read in the first place? Was it not by YOUR efforts that you read 12 different versions of the Bible?

God helps those who help themselves, Pierre. He never promised that we could just kick back and do nothing while He does everything for us, did He?

The reason I delve so deeply into the underlying things is because I want to be totally prepared to give an answer to anyone who questions my faith or understanding. We are both fighting the same fight, Pierre. It's just that I don't see one thing wrong with arming myself to the hilt with each and every ammunition there is out there.

It makes me sad that through all the times we've stood side by side, fighting as comrades against heresy, you didn't realize we were both doing it for the glory of the same Person.

July 20, 2011 at 3:14 am#253029

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2011,13:40)

Quote (Ed J @ July 18 2011,23:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2011,14:52)

Hi Ed,
So then the answer is “NO”? I'm no more sure from YOUR words than I was from his.

Are you trying to say, “NO Mike, he was NOT saying echo prohibited Jesus from asking for the return of a past glory” ?

Hi Mike,

Ha ha ha ha..

No, that's what you're saying; but I can agree with that synopsis.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ahhh……………but now that he has responded to YOUR post after ignoring my simple questions to get to the bottom of it, it seems you were wrong?

You said:

Quote

3) This does not exclude any past, because that is not what is being cited in this passage (according to Paladin).

He said:

Quote

Wrong! It is according to the Greek.

So it seems that he DOES think the imperfect tense of “echo” prohibits Jesus from speaking of a glory he had in the past.

I wonder why he just didn't say that. It doesn't, by the way – just so you know Ed.

Thanks for trying to help. I'm anxious to see the merry-go-round ride he's about to take you on now.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike,

As you know, I believe in preexistence as well;
not only in Jesus', but ours as well. (2Timothy 1:9)

Paladin wants us to see things the way he does, and
gets hung up on the differing wording we choose to use.

Hopefully, I Ed J, can get him to understand I seek agreement.
Not necessarily with the wording, but with the truth we hold dear!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 20, 2011 at 3:15 am#253030

Blocked

Quote (Pastry @ July 19 2011,05:32)

Mike! Ok but you never said you used the original transcript, until Paladin….

Hi Irene,

Then you have apparently forgotten about the time, months ago, when I gave you the link to NETBible? The post where I explicitely showed you how to find the actual Hebrew or Greek words used, and how to find the various definitions of those words, along with other information on that scripture?

July 20, 2011 at 3:18 am#253032

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2011,21:14)

Hopefully, I Ed J, can get him to understand I seek agreement.
Not necessarily with the wording, but with the truth we hold dear!

Ahhhhh! The dreams of old.

May God be with you and guide you on your journey to agreement with Paladin.

I'm happy disagreeing with him, for he tells unscriptural tales.

peace,
mike

July 20, 2011 at 3:38 am#253034

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2011,14:18)

May God be with you and guide you on your journey to agreement with Paladin.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike,

Thank you!

Your friend
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 20, 2011 at 3:43 am#253037

terraricca

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2011,20:58)

Quote (terraricca @ July 18 2011,23:18)

so what you have learned is it from you and your efforts
that you have come to the true understanding?
if you say yes then it is for your own glory that you have worked,

Was it not by YOUR efforts that you learned to read in the first place? Was it not by YOUR efforts that you read 12 different versions of the Bible?

God helps those who help themselves, Pierre. He never promised that we could just kick back and do nothing while He does everything for us, did He?

It makes me sad that through all the times we've stood side by side, fighting as comrades against heresy, you didn't realize we were both doing it for the glory of the same Person.

Mike

my dear brother ,

you have read my comment to fast,

and jump for some reason,you know that I stand for truth in many ways because of our very closeness of the truth in scriptures ,my comment if you read it again is in reality a open question to me because only you can answer it,

I did not ask to answer me ,because all we do is before God and so it is before God that you take your faith just as I do,

my point was to mention that it is not a necessity to learn Hebrew or Greek, but it is essential that we know our creator and the one he as send Jesus Christ,

in the scriptures is the will of God ,

1Pe 1:8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,
1Pe 1:9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
1Pe 1:11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things

1Pe 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.

1Pe 4:2 As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God

2Pe 1:7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
2Pe 1:8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will still stand beside you for defending the truth of scriptures ,and I am sure you will do the same for me.

Pierre

July 20, 2011 at 4:20 am#253049

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2011,21:43)

my point was to mention that it is not a necessity to learn Hebrew or Greek,

But you say that in ignorance, I believe. For you blindly accept what the English translators have told you to accept.

John 1:18 refers to “the only begotten god”. Yet here's what the Trinitarian translators of the NIV would have you think it says:

18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

What do I tell my 10 year old son when he asks me how that scripture can say what it says if Jesus ISN'T God?

What would YOU tell him, Pierre? And how would you justify or PROVE what you told him? Would you merely tell my son “the spirit must guide you”? Not me. Because there are MANY spirits out there who are very willing to guide lost ones………FURTHER AWAY FROM GOD.

I will teach him what the Greek words REALLY say. And how the Trinitarian translators keep trying to get away with more and more these days. It's like they have no shame. They are confident among themselves that the scriptures don't actually teach their truth, and apparently have no qualms about changing those scriptures until they DO teach their truth.

I can't do that unless I know of what I speak. And while the Spirit of God DOES guide me, I find it useless to get into a shouting match over who is being lead by God's Spirit. Keith will say, “God's Spirit tells me that Jesus IS God”. And you will say, “God's Spirit tells me that Jesus ISN'T God”. And so on, and so on, back and forth. With so many spirits to choose from, and with EVERYONE and their mother claiming that their truth has been shown to them by spirit, where does that leave us?

There are millions of lost ones out there who only know what they've been falsely told by their Trinitarian pastors and what they've read in their biased, Trinitarian versions of the Bible. They will read this version of John 1:18 and BELIEVE that Jesus IS God because of it. I want to have an answer prepared to show them this is NOT the case any time the situation might come up. And I'm not going to convince anyone by saying, “God's Spirit told me the NIV translated this one wrong”.

So, FOR ME, it IS a necessity to learn as much Hebrew and Greek that I can – so I'm able to wade through all the bias in the English translations and come to an informed and correct decision.

Please brother, just let this drop. If YOU don't want to study the original languages of the scriptures, then don't. But please don't ever imply that my reason for doing it is to bring glory to myself.

peace and love,
mike

July 20, 2011 at 5:42 am#253068

Participant

Hi Mike,

Here is another example why of we need to go back to the original texts…

If any come to me, and hate not his father, and mother,
and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea,
and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

On the onset this looks like a breach of the fifth commandment,
only when we investigate the Greek do we find it means to “LOVE LESS“!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 20, 2011 at 5:49 am#253069