Elohim

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,03:42)

Hi tt,
The Spirit of Christ was the rock .

I am not quite sure what you are meaning but then I do not know the context of your conversation with The Thinker.

I do have a favor though and that is would you please inform me what scripture speaks of the prophets speaking by the spirit of Christ. I believe you are the one that pointed it out to me but I cannot find it for myself. Thank you.

March 19, 2009 at 6:11 am#125160

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Hi kerwin

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2009,08:18)

God did speak through the prophets but he also spoke through angels and perhaps by other means though they too may have employed angels. Even in these last days He has chosen to speak through prophets as there were prophets in the church. So your “loose” interpretation renders the passage meaningless since according to it there is really no difference between how God chooses to speak in the early times and how He speaks in the last days. I on the other hand believe the author of Hebrews has a reason to use those words. I believe the purpose was to declare that Jesus the Messiah is here in these last days and not that the Messiah visited us in the past as you seem to be claiming.

The problem that you have is if the writer of Hebrews meant to convey what you are saying then in the same breath he would not have said…

..THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS;
Heb 1:2

This only confirms what the Father says when he says…

“This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; “HEAR YE HIM”. Matt 17:5

The writer is saying that the Father in these last days only speaks through Jesus, for the fulness of deity resides in him. Col 1:19 and Col 2:9.

This also confirms what Jesus said when he said…

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; “neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to WHOMSOEVER THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM”. Matt 11:27

So the Father (God) can only be known by knowing Jesus for it is Jesus that reveals who God is and in fact says that if you have seen him you have seen God and know God…

John 14:7-9

Contextually the Hebrew writer is trying to convey that Jesus pre existed coming in the flesh for he says…

And again, “when God brings his firstborn INTO THE WORLD”, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”* verse 6

Then in verse 8 he makes an astounding announcement when he says…

But about the Son he says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, WILL LAST FOR EVER AND EVER“, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. verse 8

Three things to note in this verse…

1. The Father declares Jesus as God (Theos, elohiym)

2. His throne is forever

3. The Kingdom is his Kingdom

But, it gets better for then we read…

And, thou Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: verse 10

IMO no one with an open mind can read Heb chapter 1 and not come to the conclusion that Jesus preexisted and is in fact YHWH that laid the foundations of the earth..

Here’s why…

Hebrews chapter 1

Vrs 2 He has the voice of God

Vrs 3 He is the brightness of Gods glory (which YHWH has said he shares with non other, Isa 48:11)

Vrs 3 He is the exact representation of Gods being (The Image of the invisible God, God revealing himself, Phil 2:6, Col 1:15)

Vrs 3 He sustains all things by his powerful word (For he is before all things and by him all things consist, Col 1:17

Vrs 6 He pre-existed his natural birth and the Angels of God worship him

Vrs 8 He is declared God by the Father and his throne and his Kingdom is forever (no other being is ever called God, elohiym, or Theos by the Father).

Vrs 10 He laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of his hands. (in fact nothing was made that was made without him John 1:3)

Is he my Lord and my God? John 20:28

You bet ya.

March 19, 2009 at 7:02 am#125161

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2009,17:49)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,03:42)

Hi tt,
The Spirit of Christ was the rock .

I am not quite sure what you are meaning but then I do not know the context of your conversation with The Thinker.

My pleasure KW,
1Peter1
9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

March 19, 2009 at 7:04 am#125162

Participant

Hi WJ,
Heb1
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

So in what way is being the BRIGHTNESS OF GOD'S GLORY sharing the GLORY OF GOD?

March 19, 2009 at 8:16 am#125181

Participant

Kerwin wrote:

Quote

I assure you Jesus did not literally go back in time and preach to the people of Noah’s time who were in slavery to their sins, prisoners in darkness, but rather the Spirit of God was there to speak in his stead through Noah even though Jesus himself had not come yet.

Kerwin,
Jesus created time

Quote

…has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom he also made the AGES (Heb. 1:2)

Unfortunately our translations say “worlds” which still would prove that Jesus was both present at and participated in creation. But the Greek is “aion” which means “ages” and some Bibles have a marginal note that indicate this.

You say that Jesus did not go back in time. Jesus created time bro!

thinker

March 19, 2009 at 8:27 am#125183

Participant

Worshiping Jesus wrote:

Quote

The problem that you have is if the writer of Hebrews meant to convey what you are saying then in the same breath he would not have said…

..THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS;
Heb 1:2

That is not necessary the problem you believe it is since Jesus being the promised Messiah and King of all of God’s people is the only way to God to the extent that even the angels in heaven must go through him for God put them under him.

The Greek word translated “worlds” is “Kosmos” according to my source which can mean different things including

Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others reads:

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1.an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2.ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:
3.the world, the universe
4.the circle of the earth, the earth
5.the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6.the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7.world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
a.the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8.any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
a.the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
b.of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

and we are a new creation in Jesus the Messiah just as it is written:

2 Corinthians 5:17(NIV) reads:

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Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Still we have also been told:

Romans 8:21(NIV) reads:

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That the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

But that has not yet occurred at this time.

March 19, 2009 at 8:35 am#125184

Participant

The Thinker wrote:

Quote

My source indicated the word translated “worlds” is “Kosmos” and not “aion” do you know why this might be? I will see if I made some mistake in using my source. Thank you for your answer.

March 19, 2009 at 8:48 am#125185

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2009,15:35)

The Thinker wrote:

Quote

My source indicated the word translated “worlds” is “Kosmos” and not “aion” do you know why this might be? I will see if I made some mistake in using my source. Thank you for your answer.

The Thinker and Worshipping Jesus,

I checked and found I did make a mistake which falsifies my conjecture on the correct interpretation of the verse. Thank your for the correction.

March 19, 2009 at 8:49 am#125186

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,14:02)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2009,17:49)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2009,03:42)

Hi tt,
The Spirit of Christ was the rock .

I am not quite sure what you are meaning but then I do not know the context of your conversation with The Thinker.

My pleasure KW,
1Peter1
9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Thank you.

March 19, 2009 at 3:56 pm#125192

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2009,20:35)

The Thinker wrote:

Quote

My source indicated the word translated “worlds” is “Kosmos” and not “aion” do you know why this might be? I will see if I made some mistake in using my source. Thank you for your answer.

Kerwin,
Both the AV text and the NU text say “aion” (ages). These are the only Greek texts we possess and they agree on “aion.” So your source is a blatant liar! I do not infer that you are a liar.

And even if the word is “kosmos” (worlds), which it is NOT, Christ was there!! This is the second time now you have said “my source” without giving me a link to verify what you say your source says.

The Son created TIME

thinker

March 19, 2009 at 4:27 pm#125194

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2009,20:48)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2009,15:35)

The Thinker wrote:

Quote

My source indicated the word translated “worlds” is “Kosmos” and not “aion” do you know why this might be? I will see if I made some mistake in using my source. Thank you for your answer.

The Thinker and Worshipping Jesus,

I checked and found I did make a mistake which falsifies my conjecture on the correct interpretation of the verse. Thank your for the correction.

Hi Thinker

But he did admit his source was not right.

I do agree that when someone quotes a source they should at least show where the source is. When they do not do this then IMO they are being vague and that would seem to make the source questionable.

March 19, 2009 at 4:28 pm#125195

theodorej

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 16 2009,10:09)

theodorej said:

Quote

Thinker…..Instead of throwing our hands up and getting drunk….Why don't we pray for wisdom and understanding so as to conduct a reasonable session with discourse that has the ability to reveal truth….That is what studing the scripture is purposed for…..

To pray for wisdom and understanding is a futile exercise if the Scriptures are ambiguous. To ask for humility and the willingness to let go of long held beliefs would be rewarding.

Back to your explanation that “elohim” means “family.” Let's again look at Genesis 1:26 in view of your definition

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And the Family said “let US make man in OUR image.

The variants of non-trinitarian interpretations just keeps mounting up:

1. Gene says that “elohim” means “powers” and not persons.

2. t8 says that “elohim” means men or angels

3. Then t8 said that there are “many” explanations

4. Marty said that God revealed to him personally what “elohim” means.

5. Now you say that “elohim” means “family.”

Non-trinitarians just can't give a uniform explanation.

thinker

Greetings thinker…..The ambiguity of the scripture is puposefull for those who seek to add to or rewrite as we can plainly see by the multiple interpretations before us today…There is no confusion among the faithfull and the spirit of the word is consistant and forever a source of learning and in some cases rebuking…When we speak of the GOD head (Elohim) we speak of the word by which he created all things and the spirit which is the essence of his power…This constitutes a family a unit of one…

March 19, 2009 at 6:13 pm#125207

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 19 2009,20:16)

Kerwin wrote:

Quote

Kerwin,
Jesus created time

Quote

…has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom he also made the AGES (Heb. 1:2)

You say that Jesus did not go back in time. Jesus created time bro!

thinker

Hi KW,
if God created through Jesus does that make Jesus the Creator of anything?

March 19, 2009 at 7:03 pm#125210

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2009,06:13)

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 19 2009,20:16)

Kerwin wrote:

Quote

Kerwin,
Jesus created time

Quote

…has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom he also made the AGES (Heb. 1:2)

You say that Jesus did not go back in time. Jesus created time bro!

thinker

Hi KW,
if God created through Jesus does that make Jesus the Creator of anything?

Hi NH

All things are by and THROUGH God himself…

For from him and THROUGH HIM and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. Rom 11:36

So because all things are “through God”, does that mean God is not the Creator?

Jesus was/is not some “empty funnel” or inactive agent by which the Father created all things.

He laid the foundation of the earth and created the heavens with his own hands and without him was not anything made that was made…

John 1:3, Heb 1:10

March 19, 2009 at 7:50 pm#125211

Participant

Hi WJ,
So all things are FROM GOD and THROUGH him and TO HIM.
All these things are not said of the Son.

But then the Son is the Son of God.

March 19, 2009 at 9:29 pm#125214

Participant

Theodorej said:

Quote

thinker…..The ambiguity of the scripture is puposefull for those who seek to add to or rewrite as we can plainly see by the multiple interpretations before us today…There is no confusion among the faithfull and the spirit of the word is consistant and forever a source of learning and in some cases rebuking…When we speak of the GOD head (Elohim) we speak of the word by which he created all things and the spirit which is the essence of his power…This constitutes a family a unit of one…

tj,
Genesis 3:8,9 says this:

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And they heard the sound of YHWH Elohim walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of YHWH Elohim among the trees of the garden. And YHWH Elohim called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you.”

There is no ambiguity in this statement. Elohim here is YHWH. The expression YHWH Elohim is used three times. Therefore, Elohim is indeed a “family unit of one” as you say but that “family unit” is YHWH! You helped out us Trinitarians with your admission that Elohim refers to a “family unit of one.”

thinker

March 19, 2009 at 9:32 pm#125215

Participant

Kerwin wrote:

Quote

The Thinker and Worshipping Jesus,

I checked and found I did make a mistake which falsifies my conjecture on the correct interpretation of the verse. Thank your for the correction.

Kerwin,
Your correction has been acknoweldged. I have told you this before and I will say it again: You are an honest man.

thinker

March 19, 2009 at 9:35 pm#125216

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2009,07:50)

Hi WJ,
So all things are FROM GOD and THROUGH him and TO HIM.
All these things are not said of the Son.

But then the Son is the Son of God.

Nick,
Have you not read Colossians 3:17? Speaking of JESUS Paul said,

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All things were created BY Him and FOR Him

thinker

March 19, 2009 at 9:37 pm#125217