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George wrote:
Quote A spirit being is an angel, angels are spirit beings, so called because you can't see them but they can see you.
A phantasm is a creature that is all spirit. I believe it is merely the soul without the flesh tent. It can be called a spirit being for that reason but angels and resurrected humans are different as they have flesh and bones and can eat.
Lot was able to see angels. Balaam’s mule saw an angel even though Balaam himself did not. In short we see angels only if God wishes us to, even they are there.
If you believe angels and resurrected humans are like phantasms then I will have to disagree as Jesus set out to prove that was not the case when challenging Thomas and other students to touch him and watch him eat. I agree that they are not like we are now because their bodies do not perish even if damaged as was the case with Jesus. Never the less, they do have bodies.
Jesus is called a man even after his resurrection so I will conclude that a resurrected human being is still a human being. You may be correct that a resurrected human being does not have a sinful nature as it has served its purpose.
Since there were angels that sinned then I am led to conclude that they to, at least at one time, had a sinful nature and most chose not to give into it.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2010,19:20) Peace2All wrote: Quote kerwin, jesus could not have been tempted to do anything.
That is an interesting statement as it contradicts what scripture clearly states.
Hebrews 4:15(NIV) reads:
Quote For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
Peace2All wrote:
Quote as he states he can only do the fathers works, words.
I assume you are referencing John 10:37-38 which reads:
John 10:37-38(NIV) reads:
Quote Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
Temptation does not equal works. Jesus was tempted to disobey God but he chose to do God’s will instead of his own and thus manifested the works of the Spirit and not of the flesh.
Peace2All wrote:
Quote that he and the father are one, they are both in each other.
He also asked God if his believers could one with him and the Father as he and the Father are one.
John 17:20-23(NIV) reads:
Quote My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Peace2All wrote:
Quote does this sound as a completly seperate entity and having no unity with the father at all?
You can have unity while being a separate entity.
Ephesians 4:1-5(NIV) reads:
Quote
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Are the believers separate entities? According to this scripture they too are in union with God.Peace2All wrote:
Quote he telling of how unified they are in nature, spirit and words cannot get any more specific.
Godly nature and spirit are synonyms and words, as a form of works, come from the spirit.
Peace2All wrote:
Quote he is what the invisible god is, makes no difference of he was placed in womb unto woman from his own spirit and bringing forth a flesh being. it is what it is. its you fault for not wanting to accept it.
God is in every womb since every individual “lives and moves and has our being in him.” Paraphrased from Acts 17:28
Peace2All wrote:
Quote god is complex and stop trying to stuff him in your nice little box.
I agree that God is complex but he is not a God of confusion as you believe him to be.
he is not a god of confusion, some just think that they are not in unity at all, except that jesus follows orders.but as we see he is in unity far beyong that with god.
those scriptures you quote are not all that have come to conclusions you read.
god's words and works & spirit came into flesh, that which is jesus. visible example of the invisible father.
thats what he is, he is in unity of gods nature , word, works 7 spirit.
he is not seperate in all as some claim.
your defense & paraphrasing do no justice to your cause. somw don't even talk as specific to what other scripturees that show opposite to your thinking
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2010,22:55) George wrote: Quote A spirit being is an angel, angels are spirit beings, so called because you can't see them but they can see you.
A phantasm is a creature that is all spirit. I believe it is merely the soul without the flesh tent. It can be called a spirit being for that reason but angels and resurrected humans are different as they have flesh and bones and can eat.
Lot was able to see angels. Balaam’s mule saw an angel even though Balaam himself did not. In short we see angels only if God wishes us to, even they are there.
If you believe angels and resurrected humans are like phantasms then I will have to disagree as Jesus set out to prove that was not the case when challenging Thomas and other students to touch him and watch him eat. I agree that they are not like we are now because their bodies do not perish even if damaged as was the case with Jesus. Never the less, they do have bodies.
Jesus is called a man even after his resurrection so I will conclude that a resurrected human being is still a human being. You may be correct that a resurrected human being does not have a sinful nature as it has served its purpose.
Since there were angels that sinned then I am led to conclude that they to, at least at one time, had a sinful nature and most chose not to give into it.
this is a topic that i guess can be fun to debate for you but please don't think that ones faith or salvation relies on this meaningless idea.spirit, spirit with outline of man if and when shown.
you think god really cares and will not listen to you or want your worship because of that.
you think it really matters that one might think that jesus is totally seperate and having no unity with god except that jeus can take orders
or that one thinks there is a unity deeper than that.
you can if you want, but IMO these are not things that takes one wawy from doing his will.
all are to worship yhwh as only true god, that is done within chriatianity.
one is to preach. that is done within chritanity.
one is to follow teachings of christ for they are god's own words and works. that is done within christianity.
there are thse that are not even directly connected to christianity that do those things.
to do them and not just say one does, is the question.
there is not one perfect single sect or exact way for obviouly people here are doing these things yet have little petty differences.
i'm not going to continue here anymore arguing things that are so petty and not distracting or taking away from that faith and worship..
if you think your right and more rightous.. please keep that self-rightous attitude in check and keep it to yourself.
these tit for tat scriptures being shown are going in the favor of both and nothing is being solved and only starting conflicts that are useless adn stupid.
if you have faith and yuo worship and are still true to that towards god tehn great, but remember so is that person at hte other end.
peace2all,
My purpose is clear and that is to show that despite currently being in the resurrected state of being Jesus is still and has always been a human being just like every other human being. The writer of Hebrews also strove to prove the same thing by first proving Jesus is not an angel though he is was promoted above the angels after his death and resurrection. The author of that book then gave his arguments why Jesus had to be made a human being. I assure you he had a purpose in those arguments and that purpose had to do with faith.
Jesus made a promise that those who hungered and thirsted for righteousness would achieve that glorious state through obedience to his teachings. He is obviously not talking an illusionary righteousness or any other flawed form but the true form that is like God’s. In order to achieve such a state one must first believe it can be done and Jesus is the prototype that shows it has been achieved.
Now some false teachers have come along and told certain individuals what their itching ears wanted to hear and that is that Jesus is so far above human beings that his example cannot be reached. This lie is damaging to the true faith and therefore must be fought and was and is being fought by those that write scripture as well as by the true students of Jesus.
I assure you God is righteous and demands righteousness out of his people. He does not abandon them to their own but instead has provided a way for them to achieve that righteousness and that way is through obedience to the teachings of his Son, Jesus the Anointed.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2010,22:55) George wrote: Quote A spirit being is an angel, angels are spirit beings, so called because you can't see them but they can see you.
A phantasm is a creature that is all spirit. I believe it is merely the soul without the flesh tent. It can be called a spirit being for that reason but angels and resurrected humans are different as they have flesh and bones and can eat.
Lot was able to see angels. Balaam’s mule saw an angel even though Balaam himself did not. In short we see angels only if God wishes us to, even they are there.
If you believe angels and resurrected humans are like phantasms then I will have to disagree as Jesus set out to prove that was not the case when challenging Thomas and other students to touch him and watch him eat. I agree that they are not like we are now because their bodies do not perish even if damaged as was the case with Jesus. Never the less, they do have bodies.
Jesus is called a man even after his resurrection so I will conclude that a resurrected human being is still a human being. You may be correct that a resurrected human being does not have a sinful nature as it has served its purpose.
Since there were angels that sinned then I am led to conclude that they to, at least at one time, had a sinful nature and most chose not to give into it.
kerwinDo you have a purpose or reason why you continue with this nonsense? If you have questions, then ask them.
What I see from all of this, you just messing around pretending to want to know, and having fun while your doing it.Georg
Quote (banana @ Jan. 09 2010,11:41) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2010,22:55) George wrote: Quote A spirit being is an angel, angels are spirit beings, so called because you can't see them but they can see you.
A phantasm is a creature that is all spirit. I believe it is merely the soul without the flesh tent. It can be called a spirit being for that reason but angels and resurrected humans are different as they have flesh and bones and can eat.
Lot was able to see angels. Balaam’s mule saw an angel even though Balaam himself did not. In short we see angels only if God wishes us to, even they are there.
If you believe angels and resurrected humans are like phantasms then I will have to disagree as Jesus set out to prove that was not the case when challenging Thomas and other students to touch him and watch him eat. I agree that they are not like we are now because their bodies do not perish even if damaged as was the case with Jesus. Never the less, they do have bodies.
Jesus is called a man even after his resurrection so I will conclude that a resurrected human being is still a human being. You may be correct that a resurrected human being does not have a sinful nature as it has served its purpose.
Since there were angels that sinned then I am led to conclude that they to, at least at one time, had a sinful nature and most chose not to give into it.
kerwinDo you have a purpose or reason why you continue with this nonsense? If you have questions, then ask them.
What I see from all of this, you just messing around pretending to want to know, and having fun while your doing it.Georg
I am learning as I go. That is merely a summation of what I have learned up to this time. I believe it is all solid and thus based on scripture and not human speculation. I have been wrong about that in the past. If so then I beg that God will show me the true path and rescue me from Satan's snares.kerwin
Let me make a suggestion, believe what the Bible tells you and you want have any problems.
Are you a Greek scholar?Georg
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 09 2010,16:22) peace2all, My purpose is clear and that is to show that despite currently being in the resurrected state of being Jesus is still and has always been a human being just like every other human being. The writer of Hebrews also strove to prove the same thing by first proving Jesus is not an angel though he is was promoted above the angels after his death and resurrection. The author of that book then gave his arguments why Jesus had to be made a human being. I assure you he had a purpose in those arguments and that purpose had to do with faith.
Jesus made a promise that those who hungered and thirsted for righteousness would achieve that glorious state through obedience to his teachings. He is obviously not talking an illusionary righteousness or any other flawed form but the true form that is like God’s. In order to achieve such a state one must first believe it can be done and Jesus is the prototype that shows it has been achieved.
Now some false teachers have come along and told certain individuals what their itching ears wanted to hear and that is that Jesus is so far above human beings that his example cannot be reached. This lie is damaging to the true faith and therefore must be fought and was and is being fought by those that write scripture as well as by the true students of Jesus.
I assure you God is righteous and demands righteousness out of his people. He does not abandon them to their own but instead has provided a way for them to achieve that righteousness and that way is through obedience to the teachings of his Son, Jesus the Anointed.
jesus was god's words and wisdom that was manifestd in flesh on earth by god's holy spirit via virgin.that holy spirit that was his seed also was given him the nature of god and thus was able to perform miracles as only god can and teach and preach of things only the father see's and knows.
john 1:1-5 – summed it up nice regarding the complex unity in god.
in the begining was the word nad the word was with god, and the word was god.
the same was in the begining with god.
all things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made.
in him was life and the life was the light of men
and hte light shineth in darkness and darjness comprehend it not
creation by god in the old testament was by god's word. his scriptures are also called his words. jesus was also was refered to it only becasue he was the messenger or mediator of god's nature, will,word, works. he was the visible example of the invisible god.
they were both in the begining, eternal , always being, this fellowship is nt od seperate nature at all.
the greek text uses god in front of “the word” in adjective form thus emphasising christs divinity.
there are those that want to change and distort that first verse to then say that the word was A GOD all unto himself.
however both he and lucifer and and others are not mentioned as gods at all.
but in scripture, the apostles and others by listening to jesus's words new that he was the incarnate of god's own words and nature.
the written law of god was now shown to us in flesh form.
god created all and his words are what we need to follow and he is the light bearer to the darkness.
these things are were the same nature as what jesus is.
why?
god put his spirit seed in virgin and gave his nature and word to this man. he was the copy of th einvisible god.
he is having his own identity in his unity but only.
john 3:13
the word was made flesh on earth yet remained in heaven also. god has come to man and yet remained in heaven.
the invisible god, the source of all is the true god t obe worshipd and he has used means ofhimself to make himself known and through communication.
unity.
P2A
Isa 5:16 But the LORD Almighty will be exalted by his justice,
and the holy God will show himself holy by his righteousness.
Isa 5:17 Then sheep will graze as in their own pasture;
lambs will feed among the ruins of the rich.Isa 5:18 Woe to those who draw sin along with cords of deceit,
and wickedness as with cart ropes,Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.Isa 5:21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitterIsa 8:11 The LORD spoke to me with his strong hand upon me, warning me not to follow the way of this people. He said:
Isa 8:12 “Do not call conspiracy
everything that these people call conspiracy;
do not fear what they fear,
and do not dread it.
Isa 8:13 The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread,
Isa 8:14 and he will be a sanctuary;you are explaining your own thouths,read this above this is scriptural.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 09 2010,16:22) peace2all, My purpose is clear and that is to show that despite currently being in the resurrected state of being Jesus is still and has always been a human being just like every other human being. The writer of Hebrews also strove to prove the same thing by first proving Jesus is not an angel though he is was promoted above the angels after his death and resurrection. The author of that book then gave his arguments why Jesus had to be made a human being. I assure you he had a purpose in those arguments and that purpose had to do with faith.
Jesus made a promise that those who hungered and thirsted for righteousness would achieve that glorious state through obedience to his teachings. He is obviously not talking an illusionary righteousness or any other flawed form but the true form that is like God’s. In order to achieve such a state one must first believe it can be done and Jesus is the prototype that shows it has been achieved.
Now some false teachers have come along and told certain individuals what their itching ears wanted to hear and that is that Jesus is so far above human beings that his example cannot be reached. This lie is damaging to the true faith and therefore must be fought and was and is being fought by those that write scripture as well as by the true students of Jesus.
I assure you God is righteous and demands righteousness out of his people. He does not abandon them to their own but instead has provided a way for them to achieve that righteousness and that way is through obedience to the teachings of his Son, Jesus the Anointed.
Kerwin ….> you are right in this, Jesus was and still is a SON of Man, and the Body he was raised with will be the same type of bodies we will have, Flesh and BONE , not Flesh and Blood. I believe you have it right, in that point. scripture does suggest it.
IMOi agree that his example is not so far above reach, that is why god made his word flesh so that there is a intimate visual understanding, not some words written down.
he came to show how to live by those laws, by his teachings.
does he retain that form of man, maybe and maybe not. maybe he does only amongst men. who really knows. i could care less, it doesn't make me love him or respect him less or more if so. it might matter to you , thats fine. but to read some people arguing and fighting about these petty things as if one is more faithful and rightous than another was my point in this topic you had.
does it matter at all in regards to anything. nope, just a topic to argue about is all.
gene, so what everyone goes to heaven now and the earth that god loves so much is not part of his plan as it has always been since the start?
i don't know about you but if god's kingdom is supposed to be on earth as in heaven and adam & eve had flesh and bone and blood, why would we not after his kingdom is established on earth?
god and the holy spirit is what is mentioned in genesis. by god saying (words) he created. by having his spirit go to and fro, helped forge the earth and all.
now i know that there is scripture that mentions being beside god.
however….have you not heard the expression ” i stand by my word”
hmm … how can a man stand by or next to his word??
not everything is literal.
jesus is god's word made flesh, jesus the man was born of his spirit and not of man.
unity is complex with god, we will never understand all, it is possible that our unity with god is more than what we think also. we truely don't know or might never be able to comprehend.
George,
I am not a Greek scholar but I do use their findings to better understand scripture when a disagreement about the meaning of words comes up. Some times that clarify an issue and sometimes they just serve to show the issue is debatable. In the case of “man” the Greek clearly is translated human. With conception it is either “grasp” or “engender” depending on the word. If we go by just English then man still means “human” and “conceive” still means started while beget means to cause or create. So, that is what scripture states.
You seem to believe that other scripture states other things that contradict those words. It appears instead of going to God to resolve the dilemma you have chosen to disregard those words you find so unsettling for challenging you deep held beliefs.
What you should do is consider Peter’s words to his hearers in 2 Peter 3:16.
2 Peter 3:16(NIV) reads:
Quote He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Jesus and his followers are well known to speak figuratively and taking what is stated figuratively literally will lead one astray. The same is true if you take something that is phrased literally figuratively. God is the one that shows us the difference.
Some times they also seem to use code instead of speaking straight forward. This also can result in error if you insert the wrong words in for the coded words.
I admit this can all be confusing unless you hunger and thirst for righteousness and thus truly seek God and his kingdom. I hope that is you, me, and all on this board though I fear otherwise.
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