Does god procreate?

Participant

Mike,
You want to worship only part of God Almighty, not Him in His fulness which includes a Spirit and a Son.

September 2, 2010 at 3:17 am#214775

Blocked

Kathi:

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The NWT translates proskuneo as giving obeisance when it is being given to the Son because they see the Son as a created being, not as a procreated being and not of the same nature as the Father. Therefore they will translate accordingly.

This is something I would expect to hear from Jack, not you Kathi. Did you not see the definitions I posted for Keith that say “to do obeisance”? Have we not discussed the scripture where the formerly blind man “worshipped” Jesus right in front of the Pharisees? Do you think Jesus was being “worshipped” in an “homage to God Himself” kind of way and the Pharisees just overlooked it?

Kathi:

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If you do, then the Son is the God of God and you can worship Him because He is 'of' God.

Everything is “OF God” Kathi. The sun is “of God”, yet we are told not to worship it. God said He will share His glory with NO ONE. By giving Jesus the same worship as you give his God, you give Jesus God's glory. How many scriptures will it take Kathi? Jesus said worship only God. God said worship only Him. Many Bible writers say to only worship God. How many will it take before you follow scripture and not your “woman's intuition” that it's cool with God for you to worship His Son as you do Him?

Kathi:

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The complete God is the Father with a Spirit and a Son and a mind and will, etc.

What?!? Again, this is something Jack would say, not you. God's Son is now a part of the “complete God”? What does that even mean? I'm having bad flashbacks of Dennison's “totality of God” thoughts.

Kathi:

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So when you worship the true fullness of the Father, you worship who He is entirely, not just in part.

True. And Jesus is NOT a part of “who God is entirely”, is he? He is a separate being from God, not a “part of God's entirety” or whatever.

mike

September 2, 2010 at 3:18 am#214776

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 02 2010,14:09)

Mike,
You want to worship only part of God Almighty, not Him in His fulness which includes a Spirit and a Son.

That's a buch of bunk Kathi.

The being of God Almighty does NOT include the separate being of His Son.

mike

September 2, 2010 at 4:03 am#214781

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2010,22:17)

Kathi:

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Kathi:

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If you do, then the Son is the God of God and you can worship Him because He is 'of' God.

Kathi:

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The complete God is the Father with a Spirit and a Son and a mind and will, etc.

Kathi:

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So when you worship the true fullness of the Father, you worship who He is entirely, not just in part.

True. And Jesus is NOT a part of “who God is entirely”, is he? He is a separate being from God, not a “part of God's entirety” or whatever.

mike

Michael,
If the blind man was for sure worshiping Jesus as some sort of a divine being, what do you think the Pharisees would have done? Killed the once blind man?

And about this all things are 'of' God stuff, you can't just pile the all things in one barrel. Most of those things that are 'of' God are created and we are certainly not to worship the creation but we are to worship the creator and the creator is the Father and the Son, not just the Father and not just the Son. The creator is both!

So, back to my first question. What reaction of the Pharisees would show you that the blind man who gained his sight actually worshiped Jesus as a divine being? Please tell me…

September 2, 2010 at 4:10 am#214783

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2010,22:18)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 02 2010,14:09)

Mike,
You want to worship only part of God Almighty, not Him in His fulness which includes a Spirit and a Son.

That's a buch of bunk Kathi.

The being of God Almighty does NOT include the separate being of His Son.

mike

Mike,
I think this is just misunderstanding. The separate person of God Almighty is WITH the separate person of His Son and is also WITH His Spirit…There is a unity among the divinity..

September 2, 2010 at 4:24 am#214784

Blocked

Kathi:

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Michael,
If the blind man was for sure worshiping Jesus as some sort of a divine being, what do you think the Pharisees would have done? Killed the once blind man?

Are you for real? Let's see, they came running to Jesus to complain about washing hands, eating among sinners, and picking grain on the Sabbath. They more than once attempted to stone him to death for mere WORDS from his mouth. They plotted and watched for any old reason to have him put to death. Yet here is a man in plain sight “worshipping” him as God Himself, and they say NOTHING? Are you REALLY going to go there? Is this REALLY a battle you want to pick?

Kathi:

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we are certainly not to worship the creation but we are to worship the creator

Where in scripture does it say to worship the “Creator”? Does it ever say to worship the “Creators“? In fact, just show me ONE scripture that says for us to worship ANYONE other than God Almighty.

If you can't do that Kathi, then what's the point of all of the rest of this?

mike

September 2, 2010 at 4:27 am#214785

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 02 2010,15:10)

Mike,
I think this is just misunderstanding. The separate person of God Almighty is WITH the separate person of His Son and is also WITH His Spirit…There is a unity among the divinity..

So the being of God is WITH the being of His Holy Spirit? I don't think that's scriptural, do you?

If God is WITH His Son, then His Son cannot possibly BE God. We are to worship only God, Kathi. That's it…..that's the end of it.

mike

September 2, 2010 at 4:41 am#214788

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2010,09:27)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 02 2010,15:10)

Mike,
I think this is just misunderstanding. The separate person of God Almighty is WITH the separate person of His Son and is also WITH His Spirit…There is a unity among the divinity..

So the being of God is WITH the being of His Holy Spirit? I don't think that's scriptural, do you?

If God is WITH His Son, then His Son cannot possibly BE God. We are to worship only God, Kathi. That's it…..that's the end of it.

mike

Haha,
this humors me,
So its the END because you say so mike?
Seems like your tag team crumbled,
and it seems that Lu and I were seeing eye to eye the whole time.

September 2, 2010 at 4:46 am#214790

Blocked

Grow up Dennison. Is there something related to the TOPIC of the discussion you would like to comment on? If not, then do you think your pot shots at me are Christian or helpful to anyone?

Grow up.

September 2, 2010 at 5:03 am#214793

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2010,09:46)

Grow up Dennison. Is there something related to the TOPIC of the discussion you would like to comment on? If not, then do you think your pot shots at me are Christian or helpful to anyone?

Grow up.

Actually i stil have a long way to go mike,
I have that excuse for my age and youth.

Yes its related to the topic, becuase
you have this supreme power of ending discussions by
your mere words of saying “That's the end of it”

Yes I hope it does help you realize a few things,

Im “Growing up” mike dont worry. To say im fully mature and fully grown up would be unwise for my age.

September 2, 2010 at 5:30 am#214796

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2010,23:24)

Kathi:

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Michael,
If the blind man was for sure worshiping Jesus as some sort of a divine being, what do you think the Pharisees would have done? Killed the once blind man?

Kathi:

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we are certainly not to worship the creation but we are to worship the creator

If you can't do that Kathi, then what's the point of all of the rest of this?

mike

Mike,
Here is one:

Rom 1:24-25
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
NASU

September 2, 2010 at 9:32 pm#214825

http://www.ccel.org/ccel…..htm#C1

Participant

I'm reading some of Cyril of Alexandria today and I thought this was appropriate here:

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The Word out of God the Father was begotten in some ineffable way (for beyond all understanding is His Generation, and as befits the Unembodied Nature): yet is That which is begotten conceived of as the Own Offspring of the Generator and Consubstantial with Him, for therefore is It called also Son: the Name indicating to us the Verity of the (so to say) Birth and Parturition.

So, basically the Word out of God was begotten as an offspring and refers this 'so to say' a birth and parturition. Interesting. This was before the ages.

September 3, 2010 at 12:44 am#214830

Blocked

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 02 2010,16:03)

Actually i stil have a long way to go mike,
I have that excuse for my age and youth.

Yes its related to the topic, becuase
you have this supreme power of ending discussions by
your mere words of saying “That's the end of it”

Hi Dennison,

I meant to say the other day when I found out how young you are, “Atta boy Dennison! It seriously makes my heart happy to know that such a young man has so great an interest in God.”

At that age, God was the farthest thing from my mind, and it seems that is the norm in America. For a lot of us, it is only after we've “sowed our wild oats” and slowed down and started thinking about our immortality that we want to know God. I'm glad that you are who you are and doing what you are doing, and I'm sorry I snapped at you like I did. It was late and I was tired and cranky and trying to hurriedly answer all the posts to me from yesterday.

Then I saw your post, and once again, you misunderstood me. I wasn't telling Kathi, “I'M RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG. THAT'S IT……END OF CONVERSATION!” :angry:

I said:

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We are to worship only God, Kathi. That's it…..that's the end of it.

I can see how you took it that way, although I don't think Kathi did…….and SHE'S the one I was addressing. What I meant was that scripture says to worship God only, and that's the end of what scripture says about who to worship. It doesn't say anything else…..so that's it….that's the end of it. Do you understand now, Dennison?

mike

September 3, 2010 at 1:23 am#214837

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 02 2010,16:30)

Kathi:

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we are certainly not to worship the creation but we are to worship the creator

If you can't do that Kathi, then what's the point of all of the rest of this?

mike

Mike,
Here is one:

First of all, it seems from your answer that you were not able to come up with a scripture that says it's okay to worship anyone except God. Who is God, Kathi? It's really simple in my mind. Jesus is the Son OF God, God is the Father, Jesus says the Father is the ONLY true God, and Paul says our one God is the Father. So if the Father alone is God according to Jesus, Paul, and the rest of scripture, then the Father alone is the one we are to worship and serve. That SHOULD be the end of it, right? You admit it is only your opinion that God would be happy about you worshipping His Son. Does your OPINION hold as much weight as scripture? That is something you'll have to figure out on your own through prayer and meditation I guess.

Thanks for the Romans verse. I was too tired to even search it last night, and wasn't aware of a scripture that connected the words “worship” and “Creator”.

You did notice it didn't say “Creators”, right? And did you read the passage? It talks about the “invisible” God, who we know is Jehovah. It talks about the “immortal” God in a time setting of way before Jesus came to earth, so since Jesus wasn't at that time immortal, we know it is speaking of Jehovah. And finally, it says to worship the Creator, not the creation, right?

Jesus is the “firstborn of all creation”. Jesus is the “beginning of the creation of God”. So, according to what Paul said, should we worship him…….or ONLY his Creator?

I know, I know…….you are about to get all hung up on the word “created”. Face it Kathi, scripture says Jesus was begotten, but it also says he is a part of God's creation.

Think of it this way…….when your husband begot your first child, didn't he create a new life where there was none before? That's the way Eve felt,

Genesis 4:1 NET
Now the man had marital relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. Then she said, “I have created a man just as the Lord did!”

Regardless of NET's translation of Gen 4:1, I still think if a man begets a child, then with the help of Jehovah, he has created a life.

Do you agree with that Kathi?

The other point you get hung up on IMO, is created “out of nothing”. I've seen you post that Jesus came from the Father….”he wasn't created out of nothing like all other things”. But Adam was created out of the “dust of the earth”, not “out of nothing”. And Jesus was created out of the substance of God Himself, not “out of nothing”.

Follow scripture Kathi. Worship the Creator, not ANYTHING He brought forth.

peace and love,
mike

September 3, 2010 at 2:06 am#214844

Participant

Oh look-ey here Mike, words from Cyril of Alexandria, and didn't I say something to this effect and you called it my women's intuition or something…

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Therefore we say that not man was made God, but rather that the Word of God Who was in Equality and Form of the Father was made in emptiness because of: the human nature, for He was emptied in this way, by reason of our likeness, being Full, as God: He was humbled on account of the Flesh, while He departeth not from the Throne of the Divine Majesty, for He hath His Seat Most High: He was made in the likeness of men, being of the Same Form with the Father, of Whose Essence He is the Form. Yet since He was once made as we, He is said to have ascended with Flesh too into the glory of the Godhead, which indeed He had evident as His own, yet was He in it after another sort, on account of the Human Nature, for He is believed to be Lord of all, even with Flesh.

But to Him boweth every knee, and that not to the grief or dishonour of the Father, but rather to His glory: for He rejoiceth and is glorified when the Son is adored by all, albeit made like us; for it is written again, For He took not on Him angels but He took on Him the seed of Abraham, wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren. Lo the Word took hold of the seed of Abraham, in that He is God, not some man like us took hold of Godhead, and He is Himself made like unto us, and is called our Brother as Man, not we to Him as regards the Nature of the Godhead. And again: Forasmuch then as the children partook of blood and flesh, He also Himself likewise partook of them, that through death He might destroy him who holdeth the power of death, that is, the devil, and might deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Lo again Himself just as |200 we partook of blood and flesh; and this hath a reason most closely united and kin, for it is written, For what the Law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of flesh of sin and for sin condemned sin in the flesh. Observe again that not man is shewn to be affecting the Divine Nature, and mounting up to His Dignity; but God the Father sending rather His Son in the likeness of flesh of sin to destroy sin. Therefore the Word, being God, made Man let Himself down into emptiness; and Christ is seen to be no mere man, affecting the Divine Glory.

Mike, did you see this part especially “…But to Him boweth every knee, and that not to the grief or dishonour of the Father, but rather to His glory: for He rejoiceth and is glorified when the Son is adored by all,…”

Now, lest you say that the word worship is not in that statement, I can show you other statements of Cyril that does use the word, but you would liken that to David's 'worship' anyway.

Also, in Gen 4:1 the word 'created' is a different Hebrew word than the one that was used to create man.

And…the 'out of nothing' is of great importance to understand the debate between in regards to the Arians. They speak of the Son's nature as if it is a new nature, unique to the Son, and not in existence before the Son was begotten. His nature was made out of nothing, in other words, the Son did not inherit His nature sort of like Adam did not inherit a pre-existent nature. I disagree with this and say that the Son did inherit His nature, a divine nature that pre-existed His active existence.

Scripture doesn't say that Jesus is 'part of' God's creation, Mike. Can you find any early church father's agreeing with you there?

September 3, 2010 at 3:32 am#214855

Blocked

Kathi:

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Oh look-ey here Mike, words from Cyril of Alexandria,

As if the words of Cyril are said to be inspired of God. Does this sound like anything God ever said in scripture:
God, not some man like us took hold of Godhead, and He is Himself made like unto us, and is called our Brother as Man, not we to Him as regards the Nature of the Godhead.
Funny, but I remember Jehovah saying He was One, not a “Godhead”.

Cyril:

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But to Him boweth every knee, and that not to the grief or dishonour of the Father, but rather to His glory: for He rejoiceth and is glorified when the Son is adored by all,

Kathi, you didn't need Cyril for that…..it's straight out of scripture. I'm sure many knees bowed to David when he was king, so why wouldn't they bow to the King of the whole world when he comes? Isn't it a long held tradition for people to bow in front of their king? Besides, scripture says all knees will bow to Jesus, so of course they will. And nothing like this will be done without it being the will of Jesus' God, so I agree that it will please our God when it happens.

Kathi:

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Also, in Gen 4:1 the word 'created' is a different Hebrew word than the one that was used to create man.

Fair enough, but wouldn't you say that you and your husband have created new lives with the help of God?

Kathi:

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I disagree with this and say that the Son did inherit His nature, a divine nature that pre-existed His active existence.

Kathi, it's okay to form a progression of how things came to be in our minds. We can dream and imagine how it could have all come to be. But don't ever mistake those “dreams” with “absolute truth”. The Bible doesn't say anything about Jesus existing in any way, shape or form before he was begotten by his God. That is just YOUR opinion, and it is unsupported by any scripture. The Bible doesn't imply anything other than God begot a Son, and from than moment on, the Son existed.

Kathi:

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Scripture doesn't say that Jesus is 'part of' God's creation, Mike. Can you find any early church father's agreeing with you there?

Sure I can…….Eusebius.

Eusebius distinctly asserts, Dem. Ev. iv. 2, that our Lord is a creature. “This offspring,” he says, “did He first produce Himself from Himself as a foundation of those things which should succeed, the perfect handy-work, δημιούργημα, of the Perfect, and the wise structure, ἀρχιτεκτόνημα, of the Wise,”

But it's not so much that Eusebius thought this, for he is just a man. It's more about the fact that the reason he thought this is because it's in the scriptures. Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation”, and “the beginning of the creation of God”. Face it Kathi…….scripture says Jesus is a part of creation plain and simple in two different places.

mike

September 3, 2010 at 6:57 am#214874

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 03 2010,05:44)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 02 2010,16:03)

Actually i stil have a long way to go mike,
I have that excuse for my age and youth.

Yes its related to the topic, becuase
you have this supreme power of ending discussions by
your mere words of saying “That's the end of it”

Hi Dennison,

I meant to say the other day when I found out how young you are, “Atta boy Dennison! It seriously makes my heart happy to know that such a young man has so great an interest in God.”

Then I saw your post, and once again, you misunderstood me. I wasn't telling Kathi, “I'M RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG. THAT'S IT……END OF CONVERSATION!” :angry:

I said:

Quote

We are to worship only God, Kathi. That's it…..that's the end of it.

mike

Lol
You see mike i was right about your amnesia!
=)
Ya…. sometimes when we start to learn a little bit more about
eachother, is when the understanding and the fellowship
starts,
Its how i understand you and your old age and your amnesia problem
haha Just kidding buddy,

Dont worry old man, dont be sorry, lol i understand you!

And i do understand about your qoute to kathi =)
thanks,

September 3, 2010 at 7:25 am#214875

JustAskin

Participant

Mike,

You are right with your exposee to Kathi.

In case you don't know it…I have been through all of this with here before.

I'm tempted to say that (shhh…) Women (shhhh..) feel sentimental towards Jesus' suffering and, thereby, feel that he should be Worshiped just as much as his Father, after all, it was he who 'did' the deed, he is the 'hero', the 'theos'.
Mike, can you see a mother wanting her Son to be put on a pedalstall? Can you see where the Well from which Kathi is drawing up her wishywashy watery ideas?

Sentiment, the failing of a woman. One cannot judge with Sentiment lest one becomes partial.

I asked Kathi 'How' she Worships but she does not know, cannot answer…she sings and dances, she says…is this Worship?

Ok, i said, call it 'Praising', call it 'Honoring', call it 'Glorifying'…yes, 'Praise, Honor and Glorify' both the Father AND the Son, but WORSHIP the Father only.

To Kathi, 'ph&g' equals 'w'…because she doesn't know what 'w' is.

Mike, pursuade her towards what 'Worship' means (to offer sacred service and an unblemished life spirit) and the difference between that and 'ph&g'.

September 3, 2010 at 7:50 am#214877

Participant

Just wanted to post a few scriptures in a unbiased manner, for everyone can consider it and review it.
Please add more if nessary

Examples of Jesus being Worshiped within the Gospels
Matthew 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Mark 5:6
But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him

Answered Question about where to worship
John 4:21
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father

Rejected Worship:
Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Revelation 19:10 (1 out 2 occurences)
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

September 3, 2010 at 7:31 pm#214902