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Kathi:
Quote Mike,
I am sure your setting aside so carelessly what the early church fathers wrote is not pleasing to God if they were His laborers and worked for Him. Whether they were His laborers is what we need the Spirit to discern.
The Spirit is telling me that if they start writing things that blatantly disagree with what scripture says……don't buy into it for a second.Kathi:
Quote Do you want to care what the early christians taught or not? It is definitely scriptural that more than the writers of the Bible were sent out by Jesus and had been given truth which the prophets and kings did not get to see or hear. Acts 20:29-30 NWT
29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.2 Thes 2:7, 9-12 NWT
7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work;9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
1 John 2:18-19, 24
18 Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us.24 As for YOU, let that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remain in YOU. If that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remains in YOU, YOU will also abide in union with the Son and in union with the Father.
What did you “hear” from the beginning Kathi? Did you hear that we have but ONE God, the Father, to whom we owe our worship? Did you hear from the beginning that God alone created? You know what the worship of Jesus eventually led to:
Well, if we can consider Jesus “part of the totality of God” (Dennison), then we can worship him as God. Then that would make the human being Mary the “Mother of God”, so let's worship her too. And while we're at it, let's go ahead and worship and pray to Saints that weren't even mentioned in scripture……and his cross……and his burial shroud……and so on, and so on.
Like I keep saying, do what you want to. As for me and mine, we will worship Jehovah. We will believe scriptures over the beliefs of men who write things that contradict those scriptures.
peace and love,
mikeKathi:
Quote Mike,
Eusebius certainly did say that the Son and the Father were the creator so therefore, the Son was not a creation.
You say, “Eusebius said it, therefore it is.” I say, “Scripture said it, therefore it is.” Do you not see the difference?Kathi:
Quote C'mon Mike, you know that the way Jesus is the Son of God is different than the way men are sons of God.
I'm not arguing that point at all. I agree. But you're saying that “born” automatically eliminates “created”. When my son was “born”, with the help of God I CREATED a new being.Kathi, scriptures say Jesus was “begotten”, “born”, “brought forth” and “of creation”. Why do you not believe the last one? What rule of grammar says that one who is born is not created? Aren't we all “born”? Aren't we all a part of “the creation by God”?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2010,09:54) Acts 20:29-30 NWT
29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.2 Thes 2:7, 9-12 NWT
7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work;9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
1 John 2:18-19, 24
18 Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us.24 As for YOU, let that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remain in YOU. If that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remains in YOU, YOU will also abide in union with the Son and in union with the Father.
Good verses there Mike, as Nick would say…the apostasy started early.
No-one comes to the Father but through the son,
To go through something, think in human terms,
If you love someone so much that you are spiritually as one, think of that love.
If one harms the other to get to you, Would you be ok with that? Would the other one be ok with that? No.
BUT If another person loved, respected, spoke well of, spoke truth of and listened to the one you loved, then yes.
You would then both be in perfect agreement,
so, no-one comes to the Father but through the son.
Love, honour, repect, speak truth of, obey, hear the son, bow in humble submission to his authority, yes, but talk to God, Listen to God, Obey God, Love with all of your heart God.
And then in perfect agreement you will have the Father, and the son.
First commandment in both old and new Testement Love the LORD thy God with all of your heart and all of your soul and with all of your mind. Second command, Love thy neighbour as thyself.
Just how I see things, that is all. Carry on,
Those are good words Shimmer, but it almost sounds like you are using Jesus to get what you want (God). Are we supposed to have fellowship with just one of them or both of them? Have you ever felt used in order for someone to gain something? That doesn't feel too great, does it? Our relationship is to be first with the Son and then He leads us to the Father but in order to have a relationship with the Son, we must be moved by the Holy Spirit who testifies about the Son. Jesus wants a relationship with you and not to be just a stepping stone to get to the Father. We need to know Him intimately and not just use His name. If you fall in love with the Son, you will fall in love with the Father and if the Son is not perfect in your opinion, the Father will not be perfect either because the Son manifests the Father.
If a chosen laborer of God is called a wolf in sheep's clothing just because they present ideas not to your understanding, maybe it is your understanding that needs to be tweaked. Be careful who you consider as wolves because if they are really God's chosen servants and accurately speak of Him, then you become the wolf, don't you. Remember satan quoted scripture too.
Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 19 2010,17:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2010,09:54) Acts 20:29-30 NWT
29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.2 Thes 2:7, 9-12 NWT
7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work;9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
1 John 2:18-19, 24
18 Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us.24 As for YOU, let that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remain in YOU. If that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remains in YOU, YOU will also abide in union with the Son and in union with the Father.
Good verses there Mike, as Nick would say…the apostasy started early.
Shimmer,
Did you realize that Nick thought Jesus was a mere man, exactly like us? And that He became the only Son at the Jordan?He would think that the apostasy came early according to his theology since the early church fathers did not share his theology.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2010,11:11) Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 19 2010,17:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2010,09:54) Acts 20:29-30 NWT
29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.2 Thes 2:7, 9-12 NWT
7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work;9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
1 John 2:18-19, 24
18 Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us.24 As for YOU, let that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remain in YOU. If that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remains in YOU, YOU will also abide in union with the Son and in union with the Father.
Good verses there Mike, as Nick would say…the apostasy started early.
Shimmer,
Did you realize that Nick thought Jesus was a mere man, exactly like us? And that He became the only Son at the Jordan?He would think that the apostasy came early according to his theology since the early church fathers did not share his theology.
Hi Kathi! Yes, I always thought that odd, that Nick did not believe what t8 does. He seems to be having a good time away from HN. Pictures on Farm ville show it….. With all the crazy stuff going on HN I don't blame Him. There are some that are only here to give others a hard time…… To those I don't even post any more…. I am so much better of. My German always comes out and I get real feisty. Our oldest Son made me aware of that today….. He was laughing though while He was saying it….. Tell you the truth at times I find better Christian on Face-Book then I find here….. Hope all is well with you and yours…..have a good night IreneLU,
No, first I knew the son, then I knew God the Father through the son,
So, USING the son to get what I want ? I would serve God even if there was no such thing as heaven or hell, as I have said before, I dont love God in that way. I love God because He loved me. Even if there was only five days left in my life and then that was it, finished, nothing more, I would spend those 5 days loving and pleasing God.
I used to believe that Jesus WAS God, the ONLY God, but Jesus took me to the Father and it was the Spirit which led me, five years ago, I have gone off course many times, but never fully. God is real to me, God works with me, God loves me, and this is all I need to know, and I OBEY and LOVE the son of God.
Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 20 2010,09:07) Good verses there Mike, as Nick would say…the apostasy started early.
Hi Shimmer,It's clear that you got the point I was making.
The apostacy started while the actual apostles were still alive, and continued to the point that some of us consider Mary, a mere human, as the mother of our God…. a God who is said to be from everlasting to everlasting. 
I sure don't have all the answers, but I've seen the results of veering away from what the scriptures actually say…….even if it is just an inch at a time.
Your second post was wonderful.
mike
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 19 2010,19:32) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2010,11:11) Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 19 2010,17:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2010,09:54) Acts 20:29-30 NWT
29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.2 Thes 2:7, 9-12 NWT
7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work;9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
1 John 2:18-19, 24
18 Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us.24 As for YOU, let that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remain in YOU. If that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remains in YOU, YOU will also abide in union with the Son and in union with the Father.
Good verses there Mike, as Nick would say…the apostasy started early.
Shimmer,
Did you realize that Nick thought Jesus was a mere man, exactly like us? And that He became the only Son at the Jordan?He would think that the apostasy came early according to his theology since the early church fathers did not share his theology.
Hi Kathi! Yes, I always thought that odd, that Nick did not believe what t8 does. He seems to be having a good time away from HN. Pictures on Farm ville show it….. With all the crazy stuff going on HN I don't blame Him. There are some that are only here to give others a hard time…… To those I don't even post any more…. I am so much better of. My German always comes out and I get real feisty. Our oldest Son made me aware of that today….. He was laughing though while He was saying it….. Tell you the truth at times I find better Christian on Face-Book then I find here….. Hope all is well with you and yours…..have a good night Irene
Hi Irene,
I agree, Facebook is good for sharing with friends but wouldn't be such a great place for anonymity and debating. HN is a good place for that stuff.That's a wise decision for you to cut back on HN because it can really get one's dander up at times. Not everyone here is going to be Christian except maybe in name only. You will know them by their fruits.
Bless you, Kathi
Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 19 2010,19:35) LU, No, first I knew the son, then I knew God the Father through the son,
So, USING the son to get what I want ? I would serve God even if there was no such thing as heaven or hell, as I have said before, I dont love God in that way. I love God because He loved me. Even if there was only five days left in my life and then that was it, finished, nothing more, I would spend those 5 days loving and pleasing God.
I used to believe that Jesus WAS God, the ONLY God, but Jesus took me to the Father and it was the Spirit which led me, five years ago, I have gone off course many times, but never fully. God is real to me, God works with me, God loves me, and this is all I need to know, and I OBEY and LOVE the son of God.
Good Shimmer,
Has the Father ever shown you that the Son is just like Him, except for being a son?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2010,17:06) Kathi: Quote Mike,
Eusebius certainly did say that the Son and the Father were the creator so therefore, the Son was not a creation.
You say, “Eusebius said it, therefore it is.” I say, “Scripture said it, therefore it is.” Do you not see the difference?Kathi:
Quote C'mon Mike, you know that the way Jesus is the Son of God is different than the way men are sons of God.
I'm not arguing that point at all. I agree. But you're saying that “born” automatically eliminates “created”. When my son was “born”, with the help of God I CREATED a new being.Kathi, scriptures say Jesus was “begotten”, “born”, “brought forth” and “of creation”. Why do you not believe the last one? What rule of grammar says that one who is born is not created? Aren't we all “born”? Aren't we all a part of “the creation by God”?
mike
Mike,
Where did I ever say that because Eusebius said it therefore it is?So now you are the creator? You created your son? Your son should worship you because you created him? Don't try to twist the idea, Mike.
bara' is Strong's #1254 in Genesis 1:1 and I know that you didn't “bara'” your son and I believe that it is creation as in terms of 'bara' that is what the Only Begotten Son did. He is the one of the causes of the bara' creation and not part of the bara' created.
A firstborn has the exact same nature unless it is a designated title that was given. A first bara' created cannot also be a firstborn. Col 1:15-18 is speaking of a bara' creation. You can't be born from someone and be bara' created. One produces the same nature and the other produces inferior nature.
Quote Aren't we all “born”? Aren't we all a part of “the creation by God”? Adam and Eve weren't born were they. They were bara' created. The Son was begotten by God, not bara' created.
Wouldn't it seem odd to say that the image of the invisible God, was the firstborn of all uncreated, since there are no others uncreated? Is that the only way you can see Him as being uncreated? Maybe Col 1 purposely mentions the Son as the firstborn of all creation because firstborns are the rightful heirs and in the passage it says that everything was made for Him. He is the heir of all creation, does that mean He is a part of all creation? And He is the heir of all creation because He is the firstborn. Maybe that is where the emphasis should be.
Kathi:
Quote Mike,
Where did I ever say that because Eusebius said it therefore it is?
I apologize, for you did not say those words. What I meant, and what I should have posted, was “You ACT LIKE if Eusebius said it……”Kathi, I'm tired and have no patience for these word games tonight.
Scripture says in two different places that Jesus is a part of the creation by God. That's really all there is to it. Believe it or don't…..the choice is yours.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2010,16:54) Kathi: Quote Mike,
I am sure your setting aside so carelessly what the early church fathers wrote is not pleasing to God if they were His laborers and worked for Him. Whether they were His laborers is what we need the Spirit to discern.
The Spirit is telling me that if they start writing things that blatantly disagree with what scripture says……don't buy into it for a second.Kathi:
Quote Do you want to care what the early christians taught or not? It is definitely scriptural that more than the writers of the Bible were sent out by Jesus and had been given truth which the prophets and kings did not get to see or hear. Acts 20:29-30 NWT
29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.2 Thes 2:7, 9-12 NWT
7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work;9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.
1 John 2:18-19, 24
18 Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as YOU have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us.24 As for YOU, let that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remain in YOU. If that which YOU have heard from [the] beginning remains in YOU, YOU will also abide in union with the Son and in union with the Father.
What did you “hear” from the beginning Kathi? Did you hear that we have but ONE God, the Father, to whom we owe our worship? Did you hear from the beginning that God alone created? You know what the worship of Jesus eventually led to:
Well, if we can consider Jesus “part of the totality of God” (Dennison), then we can worship him as God. Then that would make the human being Mary the “Mother of God”, so let's worship her too. And while we're at it, let's go ahead and worship and pray to Saints that weren't even mentioned in scripture……and his cross……and his burial shroud……and so on, and so on.
Like I keep saying, do what you want to. As for me and mine, we will worship Jehovah. We will believe scriptures over the beliefs of men who write things that contradict those scriptures.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
What if it is your understanding that needs changing and your lack of complete understanding is why you see others as wrong when they aren't? If you start calling those that are sent by God 'wolves in sheeps clothing' then you are calling God a deceiver.Blatantly disagreeing with scriptures isn't the same as blatantly disagreeing with your incomplete understanding of the scriptures.
The early church fathers love the Father and the Son and are opposed to false teaching and the worship of idols just as much as you are, Mike. Many of them got persecuted because of it and murdered. Many of them have lengthy writings towards apostasy and heresies. But many of them do not teach what you think they teach if you are calling them wolves.
Kathi,
In Acts 4, Peter and John pray to God. This is the first line of their prayer. Tell me, who do you think THEY thought the Creator was?
24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.
Your early church fathers say two Creators, scripture says One. Who should we believe Kathi?
mike
mike
you see how Kathy uses certain of your comments were you show the folly of some thinking to someone else and cut it and paste it to twisted the faith you preach in Christ,
and then quote ;29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves
wen it is her doing it .
it is good i am following this topic.so i notice that.
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2010,21:57) Kathi: Quote Mike,
Where did I ever say that because Eusebius said it therefore it is?
I apologize, for you did not say those words. What I meant, and what I should have posted, was “You ACT LIKE if Eusebius said it……”Kathi, I'm tired and have no patience for these word games tonight.
Scripture says in two different places that Jesus is a part of the creation by God. That's really all there is to it. Believe it or don't…..the choice is yours.
mike
Mike,
Good idea for you to go to bed then but realize this, if the phrase was 'heir of all creation' would you insist that meant He was part of all creation? If not, then why is it different with the word 'firstborn?'If Revelations said that He was the beginning (as a creature) of the creation then your understanding would be correct but it doesn't necessarily say that. This verse could mean the beginning (as a cause) of the creation of God and that would fit my understanding. The truth is that it is not clear either way.
What is clear in the NT is that all things IN HEAVEN and on earth were created through Him and for Him and that He is the only begotten Son. Also, that He is the image of the invisible God, the exact representation of the nature of God, and existed in the form of God.
You do not have two verses that clearly say that He was created so get past that, please.
Sleep well…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2010,22:02) Kathi, In Acts 4, Peter and John pray to God. This is the first line of their prayer. Tell me, who do you think THEY thought the Creator was?
24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.
Your early church fathers say two Creators, scripture says One. Who should we believe Kathi?
mike
Mike,Here is more of what Peter and John and those with them said:
Acts 4:23-24
23 When they had been released, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them.
24 And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said,
NASUActs 4:24-26
“O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM,
25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said, 'WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE, AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS?
26 'THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.'
NASUSince they were all speaking in one accord and all these things come from OT passages, I would guess that they are reciting a familiar liturgy.
I am glad that you realize that the early church fathers confess that the Father and the Son created the world. They don't say two creators as to give an impression of two with the same role in creation, but they say that they, together are the creator. You can also see that scriptures speak of two also:
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
NASUAnd then, right after that it says:
7 However not all men have this knowledge;
So, do you have this knowledge or not Mike? You seem to flip flop. On one thread you will post this verse and with your post to me here, it is as if you are totally unaware.
Now, does the verse speak of two involved or one, Mike? One God and one Lord=two persons.
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 20 2010,14:44) mike you see how Kathy uses certain of your comments were you show the folly of some thinking to someone else and cut it and paste it to twisted the faith you preach in Christ,
Hi Pierre,Yeah, I noticed.
I posted it to show that just because these guys were EARLY church fathers doesn't mean they weren't already a part of the apostacy.She turned it around to say I might have also called some of the 70 Jesus sent out “wolves in sheep's clothing”, given the chance.
We will know them by their fruits. If their fruits involve teaching things that contradict scripture, then we have a choice to either believe them or believe scripture.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2010,22:44) mike you see how Kathy uses certain of your comments were you show the folly of some thinking to someone else and cut it and paste it to twisted the faith you preach in Christ,
and then quote ;29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves
wen it is her doing it .
it is good i am following this topic.so i notice that.
Pierre
terraricca,Where is your proof?
The early christian fathers that I am interesting in reading ARE treating the flock with tenderness otherwise I would not be reading them.
Are YOU treating the flock with tenderness and promoting unity? Do you have something against someone and take it to them directly or do you accuse them to another? Is that scriptural?
Actually, you have just demonstrated that you have something against me and slander me to another. Where is your proof or maybe you just haven't asked me to clarify something to you that you think shows some sort of twisting of words. Do you like it when others treat you like that? Read your own sentences. They don't even make sense. You have poor grammar skills and poor writing skills and I sincerely wonder about your reading skills. Sorry to tell you that. You will be more effective when you take the log out of your own eye. Just today, I read two people getting after you, one saying that you are an accuser and another of being judgemental. Unless you provide proof of your accusations of me, you can add slanderer to the list and that is just today. I am betting that you are not truly comprehending what I am saying and that is entirely possible.
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